The Advantage of Being an Athiest

FISH FETISH ?

Proving a fish fetish would, by definition, be a subjective exercise ( you could likely engage Dr Phil or a guy I know named Charley as possible expert witnesses, but Charley would require special environmental considerations on the part of the court), whilst smacking one across the face with a mackerel or...ahem... possibly a barracuda would definitely be an exercise in provable objectivity.

Really SL are you known to hang out at Pike Place once in a while trying to get lucky?

And anyhow...why in hell wasn't I consulted on this fish fetish stuff ?

flow....:p
 
17th Angel said:
Not believing in god, doesn't mean I have to proove a thing. When I am dead I am dead thats it my corpse is rotting for the maggots... there is your proof... I think it also is supported by logic. When I die I go back to what I came from nothing rest.... Hmm seems reasonable... OR When I die I become a floaty being floating all over the place like casper the friendly ghost.... lol suuuure you do... *get the medicine boys*
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Imagine a world where everything is recorded. Imagine that everything you have ever done at any time in your life has been recorded. Imagine that the state of your flesh at every instance in time: before you fell down, during, and after was all recorded. Everything you ate, everything you saw, everything you heard, everything you said, everything you thought, everything you did... absolutely everything has been recorded in perfect detail. A giant Memorex tape. A recordable CD. A giant hard-drive the size of the Universe. Would that change your perspective? All those thoughts you have had, the good and bad... the secrets... the lies you told... they have all been perfectly recorded... physically, in this very world. In fact it is possible that someone is rewinding and watching it over and over. Ok stop imagining because that is the world you live in.

Don't believe me? Write a secret down on a piece of paper. Put the paper in a shredder. Crumple the paper up. Burn the paper. Spread the ashes as far apart as possible. The secret is gone right? Ooops, one copy left... dispose of the secret in your brain. Now the secret is gone right? Nope. I tell you that at every stage the information was perfectly recorded. The piece of paper, the secret, the reason you wrote the secret, the way you disposed of the secret... everything. How? In the very particles... in the location and momentum of particles. It is all there. Don't believe me because you can't see it? Can you look at the surface of a DVD and see the movie that is on it? Can you open up the hard drive and see the MS Windows sitting there on the hard drive? Can you see the radio waves that materialize in the TV? Study the physics, the chemistry, the thermodynamics, communication and information theory of this world, and you will see that all the information is still there... physically, in this very Universe. The history is not lost, it was just spread apart and hidden from you. It has been hidden behind a curtain.

Those maggots that feed on the flesh will just be spreading apart and carrying away the very last piece of information... the state you were in when your flesh died. Kind of like taking the old car to the junkyard. The cylinders won't fire but the metal atoms are all still there. So... where does the driver go? Who was the driver?
 
Kindest Regards all! Welcome to CR, Snoopy!

I am enjoying the banter here immensely, although the subject sounds a little fishy...

If I may interject a couple of observations:
Snoopy said:
The difficulty is when in matters of belief, it is claimed the truth of the beliefs is proven by whatever means is cited. I don’t mean believing if Jesus, the Buddha or Mohammed lived or not, I mean metaphysical issues. These surely are subjective and cannot be proven or disproven. It is not to invalidate them, merely to put them in the appropriate arena of dialogue. We may all have such beliefs (some religious, some irrational, some maybe even sensible) but they are not the stuff of proving. They are unfalsifiable.
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Gotta go with the agnostic argument here. If I read this correctly, atheists then have no business criticising theists, by the standards of this argument, because the theist arguments are outside "the appropriate arena of dialogue." Sounds to me like Gould's separate magisteria. IOW, arguing apples and oranges.

To give one final, non-religious example, it can be proven that Bartok wrote a number of string quartets but when I say the sixth one is the best this can be neither proven nor disproven because it is a personal, experiential statement. It is valid, and it may be a factual statement of my honest opinion but the world does not accept it as a proven fact that his sixth was his best.
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I'm having some difficulty with the term "experiential." I agree with the basic concept, yet even experiments must be experienced. The difference being, presumably, that an experiment is a "reproducable" and "shared" experience. However, a metaphysical experience can (theorhetically) be reproducable and shared, just not necessarily at will and not among "unbelievers." Of course, an unwilling observer to an experiment is just as likely to not believe (criticise, invalidate, debunk) the results...so we are back to square one with this argument. A (wo)man hears what s/he wants to hear, and disregards the rest...-to paraphrase Paul Simon.

G-d cannot be proven, nor can "He" be disproven. All we have is experience. Without such experience the best one could argue, so it would seem to me, is that there is no way to know for certain. However, with the experience (of G-d, the metaphysical, Spirit), the rest of the arguments are moot, pointless and wasted time.

What fundamental or foundational difference is there between "experience my experiment in my laboratory" and "experience my experiment in my prayer closet (church, Temple, synagogue, mosque, circle)?" With the possible exception of the actual nomenclature and methods used... :D
 
How about this approach: God (swt) is easily proven. The experiment requires many steps. Each step requires energy. Each step requires disposing of some entropy. It is a guarantee. Follow the steps and you will have proof that God (swt) exists. The experiment is faster than a number of scientific studies... for some people it can be accomplished in under 30 years. A person can meet God (swt) faster than it takes most people to experience what it is like handing their children over at a wedding. Some of the steps can be difficult and trying though. It is not an easy experiment for everyone to perform.
 
juantoo3 said:
Gotta go with the agnostic argument here. If I read this correctly, atheists then have no business criticising theists, by the standards of this argument, because the theist arguments are outside "the appropriate arena of dialogue."
I'm having some difficulty with the term "experiential." I agree with the basic concept, yet even experiments must be experienced. The difference being, presumably, that an experiment is a "reproducable" and "shared" experience. However, a metaphysical experience can (theorhetically) be reproducable and shared, just not necessarily at will and not among "unbelievers." Of course, an unwilling observer to an experiment is just as likely to not believe (criticise, invalidate, debunk) the results...so we are back to square one with this argument. A (wo)man hears what s/he wants to hear, and disregards the rest...-to paraphrase Paul Simon.

G-d cannot be proven, nor can "He" be disproven. All we have is experience. Without such experience the best one could argue, so it would seem to me, is that there is no way to know for certain. However, with the experience (of G-d, the metaphysical, Spirit), the rest of the arguments are moot, pointless and wasted time.

What fundamental or foundational difference is there between "experience my experiment in my laboratory" and "experience my experiment in my prayer closet (church, Temple, synagogue, mosque, circle)?" With the possible exception of the actual nomenclature and methods used... :D
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Hi,
Interesting, thanks. I think it is legitimate for an atheist to criticise an assertion of a theist who makes a claim that it is proven but cannot actually provide what constitutes proof (which is not simply "it's here in this book"). It is only then when I see a difficulty. By "appropriate arena" I mean anyone's beliefs are legitimate to themselves but if they start to use the word "proof" (as per the start of this thread) then they should be able to provide it; otherwise it remains on the "other side", in subjectivity. This is not in any way to criticise or invalidate the belief, whatever it may be.
Don't know if the stuff of metaphysics is reproducable or testable; that's why such questions continue to exercise minds so much.
Regarding your last point, yes the methodology is entirely different, this is what separates the two "arenas."

s.
 
juantoo3 said:
Did you get the confession on tape?
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This fish was the silent type, bubbled something about zzz zen zenith, you know how it is with the Pisceans..............went out on a tail fin calling for the waters of Aquarius. There was only one other witness and it was a black swan who promptly ate the fish. There was no confession, just the simple desire for renewed life that he'd heard through the grapevine.

- c -
 
flowperson said:
Confession booths are private territory...even when they're under water.

flow....:cool:
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It seems reasonable that if a person (or fish) lies to themselves or sins against themselves that a confession would be to themselves.
 
cyberpi said:
Imagine a world where everything is recorded. Imagine that everything you have ever done at any time in your life has been recorded. Imagine that the state of your flesh at every instance in time: before you fell down, during, and after was all recorded. Everything you ate, everything you saw, everything you heard, everything you said, everything you thought, everything you did... absolutely everything has been recorded in perfect detail. A giant Memorex tape. A recordable CD. A giant hard-drive the size of the Universe. Would that change your perspective? All those thoughts you have had, the good and bad... the secrets... the lies you told... they have all been perfectly recorded... physically, in this very world. In fact it is possible that someone is rewinding and watching it over and over. Ok stop imagining because that is the world you live in.

Don't believe me? Write a secret down on a piece of paper. Put the paper in a shredder. Crumple the paper up. Burn the paper. Spread the ashes as far apart as possible. The secret is gone right? Ooops, one copy left... dispose of the secret in your brain. Now the secret is gone right? Nope. I tell you that at every stage the information was perfectly recorded. The piece of paper, the secret, the reason you wrote the secret, the way you disposed of the secret... everything. How? In the very particles... in the location and momentum of particles. It is all there. Don't believe me because you can't see it? Can you look at the surface of a DVD and see the movie that is on it? Can you open up the hard drive and see the MS Windows sitting there on the hard drive? Can you see the radio waves that materialize in the TV? Study the physics, the chemistry, the thermodynamics, communication and information theory of this world, and you will see that all the information is still there... physically, in this very Universe. The history is not lost, it was just spread apart and hidden from you. It has been hidden behind a curtain.

Those maggots that feed on the flesh will just be spreading apart and carrying away the very last piece of information... the state you were in when your flesh died. Kind of like taking the old car to the junkyard. The cylinders won't fire but the metal atoms are all still there. So... where does the driver go? Who was the driver?
Click to expand...


If everything I have ever done or ever will do was recorded I'd spend a long time in jail haha.... So I am thankful there isn't a HDD somewhere with my every movement recorded on it... Now lets stay with this "secret" for example... I know a secret which inovles many lives I do not share or utter a word of this secret... no one eles ever knows or ever will.... I die I get eaten by the worms as you say... (Delightful talk makes me feel all warm and fuzzy.) Anyway... You say, the secret remains? If I am the one who is responsible for this secret Only I know no other human has a clue... I am destroyed by death... I am not going to be passing the secret onto anyone in my death.... How does it still live on?
 
17th Angel said:
If everything I have ever done or ever will do was recorded I'd spend a long time in jail haha.... So I am thankful there isn't a HDD somewhere with my every movement recorded on it... Now lets stay with this "secret" for example... I know a secret which inovles many lives I do not share or utter a word of this secret... no one eles ever knows or ever will.... I die I get eaten by the worms as you say... (Delightful talk makes me feel all warm and fuzzy.) Anyway... You say, the secret remains? If I am the one who is responsible for this secret Only I know no other human has a clue... I am destroyed by death... I am not going to be passing the secret onto anyone in my death.... How does it still live on?
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I do not fully know what the giant DVD player looks like, or the secret decoder, but yes... even if you just think of a secret then it remains in this world. Every thought has been recorded. I speak from the laws of science. If there is the smallest piece of energy in this world then it remains. Death here is the separation of two or more particles and that is NOT death. It is a loss of control... people can NOT re-write the history of that separation. The need for daily energy is the need for blank DVD's to write on. History here is lost because people do not have the giant DVD player. But every interaction is recording something. If the DVD is the size of the world... the DVD player is bigger. So I can't answer how it lives on. I am simply stating that everything has been and is being recorded.
 
cyberpi said:
I do not fully know what the giant DVD player looks like, or the secret decoder, but yes... even if you just think of a secret then it remains in this world. Every thought has been recorded. I speak from the laws of science. If there is the smallest piece of energy in this world then it remains. Death here is the separation of two or more particles and that is NOT death. It is a loss of control... people can NOT re-write the history of that separation. The need for daily energy is the need for blank DVD's to write on.
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.... But If I know a secret I am dead... This secret is still in me? But there is no chance it can be reviled.... So how is it still there? So me decomposing isn't death.... It's a loss of control. Aaah I see.
 
17th Angel said:
.... But If I know a secret I am dead... This secret is still in me? But there is no chance it can be reviled.... So how is it still there? So me decomposing isn't death.... It's a loss of control. Aaah I see.
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Why do you say if you know a secret you are dead? I fabricate secrets daily with every breath and evaporated particle... perfect secrets that only the people with the giant DVD player can see. That part may sound like fiction, but the design of the measured scientific laws is not.
 
cyberpi said:
Why do you say if you know a secret you are dead? I fabricate secrets daily with every breath and evaporated particle... perfect secrets that only the people with the giant DVD player can see. That part may sound like fiction, but the design of the measured scientific laws is not.
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I am not saying if I know a secret I am dead... I am saying, If I know a secret THEN I die... The secret too dies.... Because I am the only one who knows and only I, so if I die I cannot pass this secret on. And yes this big divine dvd player up in the fluffy clouds sounds nothing but fiction to me.


Snoopy said:
...and what certificate would it get?:eek: :eek:


s.
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I just lol'd...
 
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