Ok then Q
A Corollary of Christian God
- Thread starter Dondi
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M
mee
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Dondi
Well-Known Member
You must know, Q, that was a quote from the OP. I don't think mee exactly agrees with it though.
Dondi
Well-Known Member
Hmm...I guess I didn't make my premise plain. The whole point I was trying to make in saying that Man was made innocent, is that in order to maintain that state of innocence, Man would have had to have eaten the Tree of Life (i.e. God's Spirit). The point is that no one can maintain that state of innocence until that which is Perfect (God's Spirit) is infused in him, for lack of a better term. In the state of innocence, that is the state of potential choice between good and evil, Man's fall would have eventually happened because the Spirit of God was not in him at that point.
That is why I said that if Man had eaten the Tree of Life, Man would have lived forever in Perfection for the Spirit would be in him. Instead, Man relied on his own spirit to try to resist temptation.
Man, on his own is prone to failure, without the Spirit of God. But God in His perfection, is not, for Holiness is His very nature. That is the difference.
Man could become flawed, due to freewill, but God in His Holy Nature, which means He is Holy in His Free Will, is Perfect.
Therefore I think it is faulty thinking believing that God is subject to the kind of fall Man was subjected to. The whole point of the matter of the Two Trees is God wanted to know if Man would submit his will to God's will. And that continues today.
M
mee
Guest
i think you will find that i quoted dondi
You said it buddy, not me (lol).
v/r
Joshua
I really appreciate you taking the time to set out your views like this.
Here you say man was created innocent, I have no problem with this. Innocent is, in itself, different to perfect.
You originally wrote that man was created perfect, but then fell. That is only possible if part of man's perfection was the possibility (and given what you have said here, I would say inevitability) of his fall.
This raises certain moral questions about God.
M
mee
Guest
Importance of Correct Viewpoint. For correct Bible understanding one must not make the common error of thinking that everything called "perfect" is so in an absolute sense, that is, to an infinite degree, without limitation. Perfection in this absolute sense distinguishes only the Creator, Jehovah God.
Other perfection relative. Perfection of any other person or thing, then, is relative, not absolute.
That is, a thing is "perfect" according to, or in relation to, the purpose or end for which it is appointed by its designer or producer, or the use to which it is to be put by its receiver or user. The very meaning of perfection requires that there be someone who decides when "completion" has been reached, what the standards of excellence are, what requirements are to be satisfied, and what details are essential. Ultimately, God the Creator is the final Arbiter of perfection, the Standard-Setter, in accord with his own righteous purposes and interests.
As an illustration, the planet Earth was one of God’s creations, and at the end of six creative ‘days’ of work toward it, God pronounced the results "very good." (Ge 1:31) It met his supreme standards of excellence, hence it was perfect. Yet he thereafter assigned man to "subdue it," evidently in the sense of cultivating the earth and making the whole planet, and not just Eden, a garden of God.—Ge 1:28; 2:8.
Other perfection relative. Perfection of any other person or thing, then, is relative, not absolute.
That is, a thing is "perfect" according to, or in relation to, the purpose or end for which it is appointed by its designer or producer, or the use to which it is to be put by its receiver or user. The very meaning of perfection requires that there be someone who decides when "completion" has been reached, what the standards of excellence are, what requirements are to be satisfied, and what details are essential. Ultimately, God the Creator is the final Arbiter of perfection, the Standard-Setter, in accord with his own righteous purposes and interests.
As an illustration, the planet Earth was one of God’s creations, and at the end of six creative ‘days’ of work toward it, God pronounced the results "very good." (Ge 1:31) It met his supreme standards of excellence, hence it was perfect. Yet he thereafter assigned man to "subdue it," evidently in the sense of cultivating the earth and making the whole planet, and not just Eden, a garden of God.—Ge 1:28; 2:8.
Dondi
Well-Known Member
The only moral question about God is why He would He create being with the capacity to do evil. Unless He was hoping that these beings would be capable of choosing good. Maybe that was the risk He took in creating free moral agents. It stands to reason that since He loved man, He was hopeful that Man could reciprocate that love. What is that saying? "If you love someone, set them free"?
I can relate. I've taught my children the best I know how. I am not perfect, but one thing I tried to teach them is the Love of God. So far, I've seen pretty good results in my kids. They are not perfect, either, but I've seen them both grow in the Lord.
But the real test is going to be the time when they are no longer under my care, when they have branched out on their own. I cannot keep them forever. For their own good, they have to learn to fly on their own. I can only hope and pray that what they have learned and what they have experienced in their youth will remain with them in their journey through life, and that I have given them enough of myself and more importanly, enough of God for them to sustain that. That they will rely on God for everything they do.
17th Angel
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I see what cavalier is saying 100% and Mee... You're a JW right so you believe that once judgement day has come we all get raised and get that second chance to live on a paradise earth and everything will be purrr fect? Right? Right, so, aren't we back to where we were? Why won't people choose to do what Adam and Eve did? And "disobey" When these perfect sheep have a child.... What is to say that child wants anything to do with god? What if he resists all the bible studies you force down the throat of this child? What of your paradise then?
M
mee
Guest
the bible tells me that those who are resurrected(onto the earth) will be judged on how they live their lives from that time on . and if they dont want to do it Gods way that is their choice. and the bible tells me that if they dont want to do it Gods way they will have the second death . there is no prospect of a further resurrection if they want to go to the second death. there are many asleep in death now who are in Jehovahs memory and these will have the chance to do it right when they are resurrected . but soon when the day of Jehovah happens(Armageddon) the only ones left on the earth after that day will be those who WANT to do it Gods way.Jehovah and Jesus christ can read hearts that is why only they can judge if we are worthy to survive the great day of Jehovah. but now they are telling us the way to go even in our imperfect state .as long as we are trying our best to do it Gods way ,that is the way to go. you mention the word resist, and as you know resisting and opposing God is only serving the purpose of the great opposer and resister( the original serpent satan the devil) which in turn leads to death not everlasting life. when those people are resurrected from the memorial tombs , the resister satan the devil will be out of the way for a thousand years, just think how Adam and eve could have progressed with out the influence of satan the devil around. plus the issue of universal sovreignty will never arise again .
Never again will a challenge to Jehovah’s sovereignty need to be tested over an extended period of time in order to be proved wrong.
17th Angel
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It's not about prooving jah wrong, it's about how humans are and how they act.... It's about them pleasing themselves not prooving some deity wrong. I can't see how you can be so sure that we come back and that no one will ever "sin" again.... You say those who want to worship him... Did the children that haven't even been born yet choose to worship him?
On another note.. Only those who wish to serve him? When I used to go to the kingdom hall... The children FORCED to sit there and listen to some "elder" up on his stage going on and on... Then being egg'd on by their parents to answer questions.. I even saw one little boy who was getting upset he wanted to go out and play... Fair enough. Oh no wait his idotic father took him to the toilet and smacked him then dragged him back in to have to listen to the beauty of choosing to obey jah out of free will.. Beautiful....
Dondi
Well-Known Member
In the first place, there will be no procreation in the Kingdom of God. Jesus was presented this very dilemma by the Sadducees (who didn't believe in the resurrection, that's why they are sad, you see?). They asked that if a man dies, and his brother marries his widow, according to tradition, and then he dies, and another brother marries her, and so on, until all the brothers die, whose wife will she be in the resurrection? Jesus replied that it would be neither, for there will be no marriage in heaven, but we will be like the angels. So hence, there will be no children born in the Kingdom.
As far as the choice to sin in the Kingdom, if our choice is to go with God, then we are choosing His Holy Spirit to be infused in our spirit. When the resurrection occurs, that Holy Spirit will keep us from sin, for God cannot sin. Our choice in choosing God's Spirit now is the choice that will accomplish this later. Going bak to Adam, if he ate of the Tree of Life, before he ate of the Forbidden Tree, the choice would have resulted the same.
As far as the choice to sin in the Kingdom, if our choice is to go with God, then we are choosing His Holy Spirit to be infused in our spirit. When the resurrection occurs, that Holy Spirit will keep us from sin, for God cannot sin. Our choice in choosing God's Spirit now is the choice that will accomplish this later. Going bak to Adam, if he ate of the Tree of Life, before he ate of the Forbidden Tree, the choice would have resulted the same.
17th Angel
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So no sex?
And why do people want this again?
lol... Seriously though. If you do not have marriage... And er sex without marriage is a "no no" the how the hell are you meant to "go forth sheep fill and subdue the earth." That would make jah's will irrelivent and void.... And all this suffering pain and war is apparently because jah is trying to proove a point by using satan as an example... Then his will was to carry on.
Francis king
Well-Known Member
God is miserable, jealous, mean, and changable in that Nature.
Man is Holy, Perfect, and Good.
Man has a Perfect Relationship with God.
Man can live forever.
But some say that Man disobeyed God and man fell.
All man wanted was to be like God, but God didnt like it, not being the boss. So he threw man down.
Man's relationship with God was torn.
Man's need became Sin and caused Spiritual Death.
This sin created Physical Death.
This sin caused a change in Nature.
God is sinful, imperfect, and always changing.
Because man is Holy, Perfect, Good, then it bears to reason that He is also Just.
If man is Just, then whatever He judges is Just.
Sin, because it is need, must be dealt with.
If He judges need, then need must be dealt with Justly.
Sin must therefore be recognised for what it is.
Since Man is both holy and Sinful, then one of two things must happen:
Either the sin in Man must be destroyed.
Or Man must be uplifted.
God is Love.
But God hates Man.
So God's preference should be to destroy Sin and not Man.
If man can make a way to accomplish this, He will.
Somehow, Sin must be paid for.
So one man did. Jesus.
Therefore, man came in the form of a god.
Jesus as the God-Man lived a Life filled with the Spirit of God.
Because He lived a life, He would die a Death.
In His Death, He took the Sin from God.
He was made God for Man.
Because He was filled with the Spirit, need could not hold him in Death.
So He rose from the Grave, for Sin and Death could not hold Him down.
He rose physically to God, and poked God in the eye and said- don't be so hard on them, it's not as easy as it looks.
Because of Christ, Man's need can be met.
Because of Christ, Man is a blessed Creation.
Because of Christ, Man is raised to New Life.
Because of Christ, Man will be raised towards spirit.
Because of Christ, Man can now have a perfect relationship with God.
Becuase of Christ, Man can live forever.
In Christ, all Nature is restored.
Man is Holy, Perfect, and Good.
Man has a Perfect Relationship with God.
Man can live forever.
But some say that Man disobeyed God and man fell.
All man wanted was to be like God, but God didnt like it, not being the boss. So he threw man down.
Man's relationship with God was torn.
Man's need became Sin and caused Spiritual Death.
This sin created Physical Death.
This sin caused a change in Nature.
God is sinful, imperfect, and always changing.
Because man is Holy, Perfect, Good, then it bears to reason that He is also Just.
If man is Just, then whatever He judges is Just.
Sin, because it is need, must be dealt with.
If He judges need, then need must be dealt with Justly.
Sin must therefore be recognised for what it is.
Since Man is both holy and Sinful, then one of two things must happen:
Either the sin in Man must be destroyed.
Or Man must be uplifted.
God is Love.
But God hates Man.
So God's preference should be to destroy Sin and not Man.
If man can make a way to accomplish this, He will.
Somehow, Sin must be paid for.
So one man did. Jesus.
Therefore, man came in the form of a god.
Jesus as the God-Man lived a Life filled with the Spirit of God.
Because He lived a life, He would die a Death.
In His Death, He took the Sin from God.
He was made God for Man.
Because He was filled with the Spirit, need could not hold him in Death.
So He rose from the Grave, for Sin and Death could not hold Him down.
He rose physically to God, and poked God in the eye and said- don't be so hard on them, it's not as easy as it looks.
Because of Christ, Man's need can be met.
Because of Christ, Man is a blessed Creation.
Because of Christ, Man is raised to New Life.
Because of Christ, Man will be raised towards spirit.
Because of Christ, Man can now have a perfect relationship with God.
Becuase of Christ, Man can live forever.
In Christ, all Nature is restored.
Dondi
Well-Known Member
I never said that there was no sex in heaven. I believe that in the resurrection we will have incorruptable "spiritual bodies" much like the one Jesus had when He appeared to His Disciples after He rose from the dead. These bodies will function much like ours, only it will never suffer corruption of experience pain. Furthermore, I believe that what ever physical sensations we experience now will be magnified greatly beyond our ability to comprehend with the limitations of the bodies we have now, including sexual sensations. I'm not sure how it will work, but it is my belief that we will experience something that will exceed any sexual pleasure we might receive down here.
Not only is this supported biblically, but there have been people who have experienced near-death experiences that claim that they have seen colors and heard music unlike anything they've seen in the natural. So I'm hopeful that these phenemonom will extend to other senses and is but a taste of even greater sensory pleasures to come.
"But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him." - I Corinthians 2:9
17th Angel
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But... We are not married? So loose lifestyles are acceptable? So the righteous can go bang a prostitute?
Dondi
Well-Known Member
Let me put it this way, and this is just my conjecture, the relationship I have with my wife will pale in comparsion to that relationships we will experience in heaven, for the fundamental reason that those relationships formed there will be perfect. I don't rightly know if I will still be married to my wife, but my guess is that there will be no need for marriage, for there will be no more children to propagate, at least the scriptures don't indicate that there will be children born in heaven..
The Bible teaches that all believers constitute the Bride of Christ. We will all be united in Him. I don't know what that means in the sexual sense, but if we are all married together, then our dealings with each other will reflect this. what ever happens will be done accroding to God's righteousness, but there won't be any prostitutes or immorality in heaven. I just have to believe that God has some pleasant surprises in store.
M
mee
Guest
Dondi
Well-Known Member
Frances King.
Hello, and welcome to the CR forums.
May I ask what religious affliation you hail from. I'm rather confused by your restatement of my original post.
Regards,
Dondi
Hello, and welcome to the CR forums.
May I ask what religious affliation you hail from. I'm rather confused by your restatement of my original post.
Regards,
Dondi