Kindest Regards, Jaiket and all!
This subject has been on my mind in various forms for a few days, so this is either a really cool synchronicity (great minds think alike?) or a very ironic coincidence. Either way, it will be an interesting conversation once I can get to it. Right now I am super strapped for time, but I wanted to let you know this has not passed unnoticed.
A couple of posters in another thread mentioned that fatalism/despair is the logical consequence of atheism.
I would be one of them, if not
the one.
My immediate thought is that either; a) I have not thoroughly examined the logically entailed consequences of my beliefs regarding deities, or b) the proposition is incorrect.
Likewise there is always the possibility I am incorrect. I would also hold out the possibility of a third, or potentially more, possibilities. Which at the moment I have no idea what may be, but am open to consider.
I have given time to pondering over what is entailed by my beliefs regarding god, religion, nature etc. My intellect is clearly not limitless and I might have made mistakes or simply missed conclusions, but I'm inclined to believe case b).
This is fine, and it is certainly your perogative to follow where your heart and mind lead you to.
I feel the need to issue a disclaimer here, you are in my experience an exceptional case, Jaiket. There are a handful of well-meaning and self disciplined atheists who take the time and trouble to hang around here at CR, and it is those such as yourself that make the stereotype in my mind seem quite inadequate. So, we end up back at how labels are so insufficient and inaccurate when applied in reality. This is meant as a compliment.
I have also seen those exemplified by our recent drive by poster, who come in with an all-knowing attitude of arrogance and proceed in a rather "fundamentalist" way to downgrade and undermine the views of those they deem unworthy. I find it truly ironic to watch a fundamentalist point a finger at a fundamentalist and accuse of fundamentalism...it would be hilarious, if not for the potential severity and real-life outcomes.
I have met few atheists who have examined their beliefs and arrived at anything short of life-affirming positivity. 'Without purposes and immortality, there is no reason not to live a happy, full life, to pursue our dreams and to treat others well'.
And this is well and good, certainly an aspect I had not considered. Of course, there is no reason not to live a happy, full life, to pursue our dreams and to treat others well
with purpose and immortality, just the same. A *pleasant* view of immortality, in the sense we speak of here, can only come to bear by
earning it (in whatever manner) within this one life, in the eyes of a theist.
What then would have people believe that this is a valid assesment?
I haven't time to expand on this just now, and I dearly want to. My thinking was structured along the lines of morality by logic, as I have seen a handful of (presumed) atheists posit. Besides the fact this position is not borne out by historic / anthropological evidence (to wit: humanity has been, by all accounts, "religious" since the inception of society prior to civilization), the idea of logic generating morality just doesn't seem to pass muster. Logic may well play a role, but there are emotional aspects that are left out of such a raw equation. I could take time another day to spell it out better, but for now I will point to the work of a couple others to make my illustration for me.
Logic, as *the* generator of morality, can be demonstrated by the book "Lord of the Flies," as it can be demonstrated by the series of Mad Max / Road Warrior movies. I do not know the authors to give credit, but I think these are excellent looks at the human psyche when turned loose without a "throttle." In short, the prognosis is not very good. Logic has this nasty habit of looking out for self at the expense of others, where morality seems to be looking out for others in spite of self. Logic and morality obviously coexist, but I question their relation to each other, I really doubt logic generates morality at a root / core / base level. (one might even dare point to elemental morality among herding and pack animals, and attempt to find "logic" among same...)
Presumably if one thinks there is no god and so no afterlife etc, then you had better get cracking with enjoying this one and only fleeting time of being alive (and hence no despair allowed). That's all my thoughts!
True...but again, one only gets to *enjoy* an afterlife if one makes positively constructive use of this "one and only" life. So again, no despair allowed. (In a perfect example, anyway.)
There is another angle, that human beings naturally seem to strive for immortality, religious or not.
I have spoken with some atheists that while accepting that after this life there is no more, they still cling to sentiments of posterity.
For example, their purpose in life is to contribute something to humanity for the next generations, etc. Which a cynical nihilist may contest, saying that sooner or later humanity and life on this earth will disappear, asking again what is the ultimate point?
You may have hit on something I had not considered..."cynical nihilist." Accepting that we use our "labels" in our minds in order to construct and guide our thoughts, perhaps I was saying "atheist" and meaning "cynical nihilist." I guess the thought hadn't occurred to me that an athiest could be anything but a cynical nihilist, so in that regard I suppose an apology is due.
I offer my full and complete apology to anyone offended by my misinterpretation.
Imo, if you manage to live fully in the here and now, not clinging to the past, not striving for the future, then all these questions are futile.
Ah, and here the theist faces dilemma in responding...as I cannot speak for G-d, I cannot say with anything approaching certainty just what "He" will value, and what "He" won't value. Speaking as a mere mortal human striving to do the best I know how on this earth in this lifetime, I appreciate what it is you are trying to say!
