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Silas

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Can I speak with people of God (Christians) for a moment alone please? Guys, I was wondering how you understand free will. Please explain how you understand it as I'd like to try to understand my own views by juxtaposition of other saints. Also, I know the scripture tell that we must repent and come to Christ that we may flee the wrath that is to come. My other question is, since that command is so explicited, do you suppose that man can come in and of his own strenght or willingness, and that God will not command something that He knows we cannot proform?

Thanks!
 
Free will is the notion that we can do whatever we choose to do and are not bound by a predetermined path. That's the only way of understanding it, I think. I'm not sure about the other question.
 
Thanks for your imput, friend. But please understand, I was hoping for a Christian view on this, OK?

Thanks!
 
Guys, I was wondering how you understand free will. Please explain how you understand it
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To me it's fairly obvious and the simlest of explanations. We have the ability and right to choice. We are not slaves or puppets that God can pull the strings of. We have every right to do or not do what God and/or ourselves want.


Also, I know the scripture tell that we must repent and come to Christ that we may flee the wrath that is to come. My other question is, since that command is so explicited, do you suppose that man can come in and of his own strenght or willingness, and that God will not command something that He knows we cannot proform?
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I think we do. In fact I think that is what God is implying and what Jesus enabled. We have a path to the forgiveness of our sins and we have the free will, choice, and ability to repent.


Though on a much lighter note I think God gave us free will so we could enjoy life. So we could aspire and better ourself.
 
Silas said:
Thanks for your imput, friend. But please understand, I was hoping for a Christian view on this, OK?

Thanks!
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Silas, can God will to NOT KNOW something? That is the only way, as a Christian, I could see how there could be free will. (The Jews in their "Qabala" have a doctrine something like this.)
 
Matt Langley said:
To me it's fairly obvious and the simlest of explanations. We have the ability and right to choice. We are not slaves or puppets that God can pull the strings of. We have every right to do or not do what God and/or ourselves want.I think we do. In fact I think that is what God is implying and what Jesus enabled. We have a path to the forgiveness of our sins and we have the free will, choice, and ability to repent. Though on a much lighter note I think God gave us free will so we could enjoy life. So we could aspire and better ourself.
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I agree that we have free will and choice, but my question is concerning which of us use our free will of choice to choose God?
 
bupanishad2007 said:
Silas, can God will to NOT KNOW something? That is the only way, as a Christian, I could see how there could be free will. (The Jews in their "Qabala" have a doctrine something like this.)
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I suppose I could guess that God could will not to know something? But, Im going to deal with conjecture, but instead only what the scriptures reaveal. And, the scripture reveals that God knows everything that is going to occure. He knows the end from the begining.

So concerning free will...which of us choose to love God and seek after Him?
 
Silas said:
Can I speak with people of God (Christians) for a moment alone please? Guys, I was wondering how you understand free will. Please explain how you understand it as I'd like to try to understand my own views by juxtaposition of other saints. Also, I know the scripture tell that we must repent and come to Christ that we may flee the wrath that is to come. My other question is, since that command is so explicited, do you suppose that man can come in and of his own strenght or willingness, and that God will not command something that He knows we cannot proform?

Thanks!
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Greetings Silas!
1. Human beings were created in God's image. Besides His image, his creation was also created with choice and free will. When you become a Christian, you are given grace and then you then have the abilty to choose the grace you have been freely given. (For you naysayers, read: Christian Grace) IF you choose this awesome grace, your will and God's will become the same. As for the impending wrath, I'll choose grace and not fear.

2. Are you nuts? Even though we were created in his image, He knows we are NOT God. Would he command us to do something we are unable to do? God loves us quite a bit. He wouldn't do something like that. (just kidding about the nuts part, I think you say some good things.)

sincerely, pattimax
 
Thanks for the reply pattimix, my responces are in blue.

1. Human beings were created in God's image. Besides His image, his creation was also created with choice and free will. When you become a Christian, you are given grace and then you then have the abilty to choose the grace you have been freely given. (For you naysayers, read: Christian Grace) IF you choose this awesome grace, your will and God's will become the same. As for the impending wrath, I'll choose grace and not fear.

I agree that grace proceeds faith, thats obvious since no one seeks after God (rom. 3:11) and that Jesus said we cannot come until the Father first draw us (John 6:44), there again showing that no one comes eventhough we not only should, but we need to. But I have to say, I dont see that after the fall, man having a free will. Wait, let me clarify. I see man's free will being bound up in a love for sin (John 3:19, 1 Corinthians 6:9-11) and therefore when faced with the highest good - namely, to deny self and follow Christ, NO ONE does it. But, thank God for grace though. God makes us willing!
2. Are you nuts? Even though we were created in his image, He knows we are NOT God. Would he command us to do something we are unable to do? God loves us quite a bit. He wouldn't do something like that. (just kidding about the nuts part, I think you say some good things.)

I agree that God loves us...and to this day I dont know why. The more I learn of me, the more Im amazed of his love. That said however, God commanded Pharoh to "let his people go" knowing that He couldnt do it. Why? Because God made him not able to do it by hardening his heart. Also, God commands us to be pefect - none can do that. He commands us to Love Him with all of our minds, heart, wills, strength, etc., and none of us do either. In fact, the heart cry of the Christians is "Lord, I dont love you as I ought." Also, Jesus commanded Lazarus to get up from the grace. Lazarus was dead and could not in and his own strenght "hear" Jesus call.

Likewise, God calls us spiritually dead people to repent and come to Christ knowing that we cannot because He first must draw us. Now, these are all examples of God commanding things that He knows we cannot do in and of our strenght. I assure you that the Lord isnt being disingenuous, but instead teaching something - namely man's total inabilty to come because no one loves God (we only love him after we're born agian and realized that he first loved us). This is what theologians call "Total Depravity." Or, part of it, I mean.
 
Silas said:
That said however, God commanded Pharoh to "let his people go" knowing that He couldnt do it. Why? Because God made him not able to do it by hardening his heart. Also, God commands us to be pefect - none can do that. He commands us to Love Him with all of our minds, heart, wills, strength, etc., and none of us do either. In fact, the heart cry of the Christians is "Lord, I dont love you as I ought." Also, Jesus commanded Lazarus to get up from the grace. Lazarus was dead and could not in and his own strenght "hear" Jesus call.

Likewise, God calls us spiritually dead people to repent and come to Christ knowing that we cannot because He first must draw us. Now, these are all examples of God commanding things that He knows we cannot do in and of our strength. I assure you that the Lord isnt being disingenuous, but instead teaching something - namely man's total inabilty to come because no one loves God (we only love him after we're born agian and realized that he first loved us). This is what theologians call "Total Depravity." Or, part of it, I mean.
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Yes, I understand what your saying. Drawing us to come to Christ is dependent on Him. And thereafter, we are completely dependent on him.
Please pardon me.
 
Silas said:
I agree that God loves us...and to this day I dont know why. The more I learn of me, the more Im amazed of his love.
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Greeting Silas and Pattimax,

I guess I am more simple minded because it seems simple to me. God loves us because we came from him as does all of creation. Witness the imperfect love of a mother for a child that came from her womb. She loves the child no matter what and her love is miniscule compared to God. Gods love is unconditional because he created you in full knoeldge of what you would become and you came from him as does all creation which he loves equally. How can he not love you. God is Love. that is his essence. Just a view for your consideration.

Love in Christ,
JM

 
pattimax said:
Oh yeah, Pharoahs heart already had a good start on being hard. God just finished it. It seems he had already made the choice. (You know that!)
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Yeah, I think you're right, the first five times the Bible says that Pharoah hardened his own heart and the other five times it says that God did the hardening. It does still seem that God never had intention of saving Pharoah in the first place though, because Scriptures state that "God raised him up for the very purpose of showing himself [God] strong." God is soveriegn in everything, even in salvation.

"Salvation is of the Lord."
 
JosephM said:


Greeting Silas and Pattimax,

I guess I am more simple minded because it seems simple to me. God loves us because we came from him as does all of creation. Witness the imperfect love of a mother for a child that came from her womb. She loves the child no matter what and her love is miniscule compared to God. Gods love is unconditional because he created you in full knoeldge of what you would become and you came from him as does all creation which he loves equally. How can he not love you. God is Love. that is his essence. Just a view for your consideration.

Love in Christ,
JM
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Excuse me, I dont mean to come off harsh but you couldnt have learned that from reading scripture. Yes, God is Love! But He is three times Holy, which incidentally is His essence. ALL of God's attributes e.g., love, mercy, justice, wrath, flow from His Holiness. This Holy God hates sin with an extreme passion. Anyone in the Bible who was confronted with God all bowed their head in shame and pronounced a curse on themselves. By God's grace, I have come to understand to some degree, the hatred that God has for sins. The Bible makes it clear that sins are "exceedinly sinful" and absolutely abhorant in the eyes of the Lord. Therefore, when I juxtapose my sins in light of God's exceeding holiness, I feel like the men in the Bible who cries out in shame and astonishment saying..."what is man that you should even be mindful of us."

Adam and Eve sinned only once and their sin was enough for God to pronouce a death curse on everyone. Moreover, He kicked them out of the Garden. I have sined way more than I could count. It is only because God is pleased to show mercy that I am alive and even trusting in Christ. In the Bible, God shows His soverignity by having mercy on whom he wills and punishing whom He wills. Read Romans 9. Since all are equally guilty, God chooses to save who He wills. And not because of something good in them - there is NOTHING good in man that is deserving of Jesus' sufferings, but rather it is all due to God's own choice to love and save whom He wills. This is the God of the Bible. "Fear Him and Keep His Commandments."

- God Bless!!

 
We choose our destiny, we choose our paths, and in the end, we choose virtue or vice, heaven or hell, life or death, satisfation or discontent, the Spiritual or carnal...It's all in the heart of Man.

We are programed to recieve, as I view creation as a perfect self justifying mechanism. In the end we discern the mechnism, and decide for ourselves the right path for us. [Free will]

Greed, fear, bitterness, anger, and jealousy are all emotions each person has experienced that come by way of vice, but do they satisfy? Many cling to them like they're a lifeforce, but there is no real satisfaction in them, imo. The same goes with money. One would think money would/could satisfy, or more abundance of the material, but it doesn't. Why? Because true satisfaction can only be found within the self by way of "virtue"; material wealth is just a cherry, and vice is just an empty cone.

The source of virtue, Life, Satisfaction, and Spirit is [God] who is defined as [Love] in 1 John. Love is the "source" of all virtue. Faith in God's Love can move mountains, one only need be mindful of what he/she embraces in life, and on what course he/she sets the heart. Love is the source of true satisfaction within the meachanism, I think.

We are programmed to recieve inwardly by way of virtue and vice. In the end, we choose our seat of soul, and what we cling to in life.

This view might seem like a kind of "ultimatum" to some, [It might very well be] but free will it is infact a "choice" driven system. Only, we are pre-programed to recieve by way of virtue and vice. Only, one "truly" satifies, while the other does not.


virtue >noun 1 behavior showing high moral standards. 2 a morally good or desirable quality. 3 a good or useful quality of a thing. (Love)

vice >noun 1 immoral or wicked behavior. 2 criminal activities involving prostitution, pornography, or drugs. 3 an immoral or wicked personal characteristic. 4 a weakness of character (Lust)


These are just my thoughts on free will....


Love,
 
Silas said:
namely man's total inabilty to come because no one loves God (we only love him after we're born agian and realized that he first loved us). This is what theologians call "Total Depravity." Or, part of it, I mean.
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I disagree. I loved God from as far back as I can remember, and I have never had a time I did not seek after Him.

I've had plenty of times I've rebelled against His will, times I've messed up and sinned. But I was never without God, and I was always reminded instantly of my mess-up, which brought me to Him again in apology. And I don't apologize because I fear God, either. I apologize and try to do better because I love Him, and I want to give Him my all. But I have never felt that I was depraved in God's eyes. I am imperfect, but still beloved.

I think it is innate for people to seek after God. Some of the earliest memories I have, when I was perhaps two or so, were of looking at little picture books of Jesus' ministry and life, and I always felt it made sense that God loved me, and I loved God. It was a given, and wasn't difficult to come to God at all. I didn't need church, theology, or doctrine to experience God for myself and to love Him. I was too young, when I first experienced God, to be capable of the kind of reasoning you are describing that leads to conversion or being born again. I simply had a child's faith. As Jesus said, we are to have faith as little children. Little children do not sit and come up with elaborate ideas about how God operates, what the nature of humanity is, or what sin is. Little children just have faith that God loves them, they'll be the best person they can and love Him, and that is sufficient.

As for free will...
God's grace saves me through Christ, but I have ever been a person willing to be saved, and that is my own free will. Otherwise I would be merely a puppet.
 
Hi Silas –

Can I speak with people of God (Christians) for a moment alone please?

OK. I'm Catholic.

Guys, I was wondering how you understand free will.

CCC311:
"Angels and men, as intelligent and free creatures, have to journey toward their ultimate destinies by their free choice and preferential love. They can therefore go astray. Indeed, they have sinned. Thus has moral evil, incommensurably more harmful than physical evil, entered the world. God is in no way, directly or indirectly, the cause of moral evil..."

CCC307:
"...God thus enables men to be intelligent and free causes in order to complete the work of creation, to perfect its harmony for their own good and that of their neighbours. Though often unconscious collaborators with God's will, they can also enter deliberately into the divine plan by their actions, their prayers and their sufferings. They then fully become "God's fellow workers" and co-workers for his kingdom."

Thomas
 
I have come to wonder if God chooses us all. After all, Scripture tells us that The Creator created us all, and died for all. Free will? Yes, we are free to choose His Love. (edited to add: or try to reject it)

If "every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord," then that seems to include everyone. Exactly how that happens, well...we are not given every detail. I think there are good and holy reasons for that.

Exactly how God reveals himself to every person is not something I can say I know for sure. If I am to love my neighbor, and love my enemy, and above all love God, then I am not willing to project my measly understanding upon the holy mind and Spirit of God. "He" will reveal all things in His own time and in His own way. In the meantime, I will continue to glory and find comfort and peace in the things He allows me to comprehend through that beautiful Spirit, and I will not pass judgement on others if I can help it (and I believe He said He would aid me in that regard--He will not give me more than I can bear--and when I transgress in this area, He will show me my sin). I will work toward understanding His will, and by His choice and mine, I will find peace even when there appears to be none.

InPeace,
InLove
 
Silas said:

Excuse me, I dont mean to come off harsh but you couldnt have learned that from reading scripture. Yes, God is Love! But He is three times Holy, which incidentally is His essence. ALL of God's attributes e.g., love, mercy, justice, wrath, flow from His Holiness. This Holy God hates sin with an extreme passion. Anyone in the Bible who was confronted with God all bowed their head in shame and pronounced a curse on themselves. By God's grace, I have come to understand to some degree, the hatred that God has for sins. The Bible makes it clear that sins are "exceedinly sinful" and absolutely abhorant in the eyes of the Lord. Therefore, when I juxtapose my sins in light of God's exceeding holiness, I feel like the men in the Bible who cries out in shame and astonishment saying..."what is man that you should even be mindful of us."

Adam and Eve sinned only once and their sin was enough for God to pronouce a death curse on everyone. Moreover, He kicked them out of the Garden. I have sined way more than I could count. It is only because God is pleased to show mercy that I am alive and even trusting in Christ. In the Bible, God shows His soverignity by having mercy on whom he wills and punishing whom He wills. Read Romans 9. Since all are equally guilty, God chooses to save who He wills. And not because of something good in them - there is NOTHING good in man that is deserving of Jesus' sufferings, but rather it is all due to God's own choice to love and save whom He wills. This is the God of the Bible. "Fear Him and Keep His Commandments."

- God Bless!!
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I was addressing this on another thread.. God hates sin and we are to hate what He hates so that makes hating what God hates a christian virtue.. lol Im waiting for flame on that.

I love that Jesus shared His righteousness with me.. To be righteous is to be IN Christ.. When God speaks of righteousness He is speaking of Jesus in us.. the annointing of us.. we are annointed by the blood of Jesus.. there are none righteous without Jesus and His blood.
 
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