Question

Faithfulservant said:
btw that quote 'God helps those that help themselves" was actually made by Hitler ...
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Actually, the saying comes from Aesop's Fables. The story goes like this: "A Wagoner was once driving a heavy load along a very muddy way. He came to a part of the road where the wheels sank half-way into the mire, and the more the horses pulled, the deeper sank the wheels. So the Wagoner threw down his whip, and knelt down and prayed to Hercules the Strong. 'O Hercules, help me in this my hour of distress." But Hercules appeared to him, and said: 'Man, don't sprawl there. Get up and put your shoulder to the wheel. The gods help them that help themselves.'"(3)
Now, there is an element of truth in that. You can't just sit around and expect God to miraculously do everything for you. That's what the Apostle Paul once wrote to a group of people with a lay-back-and-let-God-do-it-all attitude. It's in the outline:
"He who does not work shall not eat." Yet we hear that some of you are living in laziness, refusing to work, and wasting your time in gossiping. In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ we appeal to such people--we command them--to quiet down, get to work, and earn their own living. 2 Thessalonians 3:10-12TLB
 
Faithfulservant said:
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/hitler02241941.html

Speech by Chancellor Hitler to the Nazi Party in Munich

(February 24, 1941)



"The conception of the new Movement, whose fundamentals can be expressed in a single sentence: "The Lord helps those who help themselves,"

Adolf Hiter

you can read the whole speech at the link...
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Yes, Hitler did use the phrase. You were right, but I am not ready to believe that he was the first to say it, or the only one. Even the Devil can quote Scripture, the Bible tells us.
 
!!! hitler used that phrase to justify killing millions of Gods chosen people..

God helps those who help themselves - is it in the Bible?

Question: "God helps those who help themselves - is it in the Bible?"

Answer: "God helps those who help themselves" is probably the most often quoted Bible verse that actually is not in the Bible. In fact the Bible teaches the opposite. God helps the helpless! Isaiah 25:4 declares, "For You have been a defense for the helpless, a defense for the needy in his distress, a refuge from the storm, a shade from the heat..." Romans 5:6 tells us, "For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly." In terms of salvation, we are all utterly helpless. We are all infected by sin (Romans 3:23), and condemned as a result of that sin (Romans 6:23). Nothing we can do on our own can remedy this situation (Isaiah 64:6). We are helpless! Thankfully, God is the helper of the helpless. While we were still sinners (helpless), Jesus died for us (Romans 5:8). Jesus paid the penalty that we were helpless to pay (2 Corinthians 5:21). God provided the "help" that we need precisely because we could not help ourselves.
Apart from salvation, there is perhaps a way that the concept "God helps those who help themselves" is correct. As an example, if you asked me to help you move a piece of furniture, but then just watched me as I moved the furniture for you...I was not actually helping you. I was would be doing the work for you. Many Christians fall into the trap of inactivity. Many Christians ask God for help, but then expect God to do everything Himself. They excuse this by pointing to the fact that God will provide according to His will and in His timing. However, this is not a reason for inactivity. As a specific example, if you are in need of a job, ask the Lord to help you find a job - but then be active in actually looking for a job. While it is in His power to do so, it is highly unlikely that God will cause employers to come looking for you!


Does God help those who help themselves? In regards to salvation - no. No one is capable of helping themselves. God has provided for our salvation through Jesus Christ. We are utterly helpless in achieving our own salvation. In regards to the Christian life - sometimes yes. God will help us to accomplish His will in and through our lives...but God expects us to be active and energetic while seeking to accomplish His will. God rarely "helps" a person who is unwilling to participate in the process.


Its NOT biblical

in addition heres some more scripture to back it up

Jer 17:5 (NIV) This is what the LORD says: "Cursed is the one who trusts in man, who depends on flesh for his strength and whose heart turns away from the LORD."
Prov 28:26 (NIV) He who trusts in himself is a fool...

The word is consistant. When its not consistant.. look at what Jesus would do.

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Silas said:
Can a good Muslim, or good Jew or good athesist, or good Catholic, or good Rasta, or good person ever please God without Jesus?
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Pleased? Did Abraham please God? Did Abraham please Jesus?
 
cyberpi said:
Pleased? Did Abraham please God? Did Abraham please Jesus?
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Jesus said in John 8:56, "Your father Abraham was overjoyed to see my day, and he saw it and was glad.” So yes, Abraham did please God. Moreover, God Sovereignly choose to have mercy on Abraham and made Him one of His own - He was counted In Christ by God's Grace.
 
Silas said:
Jesus said in John 8:56, "Your father Abraham was overjoyed to see my day, and he saw it and was glad.” So yes, Abraham did please God. Moreover, God Sovereignly choose to have mercy on Abraham and made Him one of His own - He was counted In Christ by God's Grace.
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Then you have answered your initial question... people can be counted in Christ by God's Grace.
 
cyberpi said:
Then you have answered your initial question... people can be counted in Christ by God's Grace.
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LOL.. Yes, but grace is a gift that proceeds the gift faith, thereby giving God all the glory. No one ever choose believes pior to grace. Instead, they choose to surpress the truth in unrighteousness.
 
Faithfulservant said:
Abraham had grace because He had faith first..
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Where in scripture do you see that? Abraham used to be Abram, a gentile who had no faith in the true God. In fact, he was just like everyone else in his country. Yet, God Soverignly elected this man to the faith and promised that through Him, all of God's people will be named. The whole OT is filled with God's election and the NT brings it to light and makes it obvious, I think.

In Christ!
 
I agree with Silas to a point. I do think it is by God's grace that we are called in the first place. It is an opportunity for faith.

However, I think that I may disagree with Silas on who is called--the "elect". It's possible that I may be misunderstanding Silas's belief.

Anyway, I think this is a great mystery and wonder that is so simple yet so grand, but I won't go into it here.

2c.

InPeace,
InLove
 
InLove said:
I agree with Silas to a point. I do think it is by God's grace that we are called in the first place. It is an opportunity for faith.

However, I think that I may disagree with Silas on who is called--the "elect". It's possible that I may be misunderstanding Silas's belief.

Anyway, I think this is a great mystery and wonder that is so simple yet so grand, but I won't go into it here.

2c.

InPeace,
InLove
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Sorry if I confused you, but I was calling the elect Christians who were/are grafted in and counted in Israel by Jesus, the shepherd. I think scripture is pretty clear on that, but I'll give you scripture if you want them. As for the mystery of election. I think Romans 9 sums it up well. Whats your understanding of Romans 9?
 
Genesis 15:6 And he believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.
Hebrews 11:8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going.
Hebrews 11:9 By faith he dwelt in the land of promise as in a foreign country, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise; 10 for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
Hebrews 11:11 By faith Sarah herself also received strength to conceive seed, and she bore a child when she was past the age, because she judged Him faithful who had promised.
Hebrews 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, 18 of whom it was said, "In Isaac your seed shall be called,"
Romans 4:1-3 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh?* For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."
Romans 4:12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of the faith which our father Abraham had while still uncircumcised.
Romans 4:13 For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
Romans 4:16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all.


Actually there is quite a bit about Abraham's faith in the Bible.
 
Hi, Dor and Silas--

I am taking another trip out to my Dad's this morning. I am intensely aware of these Scripture passages, and I will come back when I can and reply.

I have to pack. Dad needs me right now.

InPeace,
InLove
InChrist
 
Dor said:
Genesis 15:6 And he believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.
Hebrews 11:8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going.
Hebrews 11:9 By faith he dwelt in the land of promise as in a foreign country, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise; 10 for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
Hebrews 11:11 By faith Sarah herself also received strength to conceive seed, and she bore a child when she was past the age, because she judged Him faithful who had promised.
Hebrews 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, 18 of whom it was said, "In Isaac your seed shall be called,"
Romans 4:1-3 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh?* For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."
Romans 4:12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of the faith which our father Abraham had while still uncircumcised.
Romans 4:13 For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
Romans 4:16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all.


Actually there is quite a bit about Abraham's faith in the Bible.
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Amen! Here's the thing with assuming that Abraham believed before grace though:

Considering the fact that the OT saints get saved the same way the NT saints get saved - namely through faith in Jesus, and Jesus saying that "no man can come to the Son unless the Father first draw Him," how could Abraham believe first? There are many scriptures that tell us to come and repent, come and be baptised, choose this day, etc., yet all of those are trumped by the fact that eventhough we ought to come, we cannot come until the Father draws us. That begs the questions why cant we come until God the Father draw us? I believe scripture shows that we wont. None choose God. Therefore, to display His grace and Mercy, God elects some to salvation. We are saved by Grace through faith lest anyone should boast.

God will get all the Glory in Salvation, because He does ALL of the work. After all, He's the author and finisher of our faith.
 
InLove said:
Hi, Dor and Silas--

I am taking another trip out to my Dad's this morning. I am intensely aware of these Scripture passages, and I will come back when I can and reply.

I have to pack. Dad needs me right now.

InPeace,
InLove
InChrist
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Be safe! Grace and Peace!!
 
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