Question

[Cage]

Righteuos maybe, but not good, Quahom. Jesus tells us so..."There is none good, but the father" Jesus even neglected to suggest that he was good...

17. And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.


Love,

 

[Silas]

Wrong. there have been righteous men in God's eyes. Look it up. at the moment of the author's writings there may have been no good man...

Nah, thats not true bro. Paul said in Romans 3:10..."There is no one righteous, not even one." Jesus also said it, "There is none good but God." The only people made righteous were/are/will be, those who God has counted in Christ' righteousness.

 

[Quahom1]

What trasforms people is a change of nature which entails death and ressurrection. If our old nature has died in Christ, we were burried and now have been born again in Him and is a new creation in Christ, which will grow into perfection through santificiation to glorification. God does this when He changes our heart from stony to a heart of flesh, puts His Spirit in us and causes us to walk in His statues (Ezk. 36.26-27). Its starts when God does it and its a life process where God does the work ensuring we dont fall away.

I don't buy that. Our old nature is what we are. God uses our "nature" to His Glory. Therein may lie the death of the old, and up with the new. But we are still the same. Just with a new perspective. Paul is a perfect example. Nothing about him changed, except his goal. Instead of killing radicals, he became an advocate for those "radicals" Nothing else changed.

He was still obtuse, still an ass, still defiant, still judgemenatal, and still a generous man. Nothing about his character changed, but his heart...

you people still don't get it. God does not change will, only hearts...

 

[Cage]

I don't buy that. Our old nature is what we are. God uses our "nature" to His Glory. Therein may lie the death of the old, and up with the new. But we are still the same. Just with a new perspective. Paul is a perfect example. Nothing about him changed, except his goal. Instead of killing radicals, he became an advocate for those "radicals" Nothing else changed.

He was still obtuse, still an ass, still defiant, still judgemenatal, and still a generous man. Nothing about his character changed, but his heart...

you people still don't get it. God does not change will, only hearts...

Does this mean that we are responsible for what we pursue after he changes heart, or does the change of heart do that itself? I pursue different things now, I was once an ass, now I'm not, [for the most part] I once loved to fight, now I don't, I once took pleasure in drugs of all sorts, now I am clean. My heart changed, and so did my behavior, and I credit God for this fact.


Love,

 

[Silas]

I don't buy that. Our old nature is what we are.

Kinda sorta. The Christian paradox is that He is a new man in Christ (2 Corinthians 6:18) while still living in the old body with all its wretechedness and inablity to please God. Romans 6,7, and 8, talk about this, I think?

God uses our "nature" to His Glory. Therein may lie the death of the old, and up with the new. But we are still the same. Just with a new perspective.

God kills the old nature in Christ...I think thats also 2 Cor. 6? But we're certianly not the same. If you sin habitually it proves you're not born again because a Christian cannot sin habitually (all of 1John).

Paul is a perfect example. Nothing about him changed, except his goal. Instead of killing radicals, he became an advocate for those "radicals" Nothing else changed.

Paul grew in santification towards the direction of perfection. He also said that it is God's will for all of us to grow in santification that we may become holy as God is holy. Without Holiness no one can see God (Heb. 12:14).

He was still obtuse, still an ass, still defiant, still judgemenatal, and still a generous man. Nothing about his character changed, but his heart...

God promises to change a sinner into a saint. He will be hated by the world, yes, but Loved by God because he will love what God loves, namely holiness. If a Christian isnt growing, he isnt a Christian (all of 1 John).

you people still don't get it. God does not change will, only hearts...

Pior to God changing our hearts, the will was in bondage to sin and thus choose what was in its nature to choose - sin. God freed our wills when He changed our hearts. Now because of that we're free from bonage of sin (Romans 6).

 

[Quahom1]

Nah, thats not true bro. Paul said in Romans 3:10..."There is no one righteous, not even one." Jesus also said it, "There is none good but God." The only people made righteous were/are/will be, those who God has counted in Christ' righteousness.

Paul was speaking for himself and his own time...bro. God decride other in the Old testament. He personally named those that were righteous.

Before Jesus' walk on earth, there were righteous people, and God took note of that fact. Today there are righteous people who know Christ not, and God the Father takes note of that fact.

Perhaps that is the point of the Bible which states "The laws are written on the hearts of every man..."

I'm gonna vent another issue to US CHRISTIANS. Who the hell wan'ts to listen to a bunch of self righteous hypocrits (sp), telling everyone else they are doomed to hell, when we are like one step away from the same place?

Mee has his own agenda (recruit more JWs), Jean likes to do what Ciel likes to do and force stones before a foot path, trying to see who will trip up, then sit back in smug superiority. Wil isn't much better. At least Stephen was straight up from the get go, and the Martin gal, asked the hard questions, but at least tried to listen to the answers.

And Silias. Don't tell me again that what I quote isn't true...unless you have damn good proof...that really pisses me off. You don't know your bible as well as you think you do.

And for the cheap seats. God found Lot and David righteous...chew on that for awhile.

v/r

Joshua

 

[Quahom1]

Does this mean that we are responsible for what we pursue after he changes heart, or does the change of heart do that itself? I pursue different things now, I was once an ass, now I'm not, [for the most part] I once loved to fight, now I don't, I once took pleasure in drugs of all sorts, now I am clean. My heart changed, and so did my behavior, and I credit God for this fact.


Love,

We are responsible regardless of God's input or not.

You are still Cage...only you have a different attitude. Same power, same character, same personality, same weaknesses, same strengths, same phisique, same shape, and same face. Only now, there is a difference within you. And in short order (trust me), people will notice a difference, and actually ask you "what is different"?

You will not, and do not feel or see anything different about yourself...but others will.

mark my words

There will come a time when someone will ask you something as to your change. When you say "I found Jesus". They are going to laugh it off. Crunch time. What do you do next?

Grinn, shrug the shoulders while lifting the arms and simply reply "it's true".

Who the hell can argue with that?

Now here is the problem, that you don't seem to have an answer to. "WhY?"

That is one you have to tackle all on your own.

But you can come here for prayers and advice you don't need.

v/r

Joshua

 

[path_of_one]

Apparently Jesus thought there were some good people around, for He said:

"That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust." - Matthew 5:45 KJV

And again:
"A good man out of the good treasure of the heart brigeth forth good things" - Matthew 12:35 KJV

There are lots and lots more. Just do a quick perusal for the word "good" used to describe people in the Bible.

I think what is problematic here is that you are defining "good" in only one way, making the Bible seem contradictory. If Jesus says none are good but God, and yet also talks about good people (see the above quotes), it appears problematic.

In fact, these passages are not problematic or contradictory at all. It's just you have to dig deeper than the basic English, which is notoriously problematic for translating the Greek. One helpful resource in this endeavor is the Amplified Bible, since it will explain further what the Greek actually means.

In the passages quoted above, no further explanation was necessary. "Good" meant what it generally does in everyday English- decent, nice, kind, unselfish, seeking after what is just and right, etc. In the passage:

"Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt eneter into life, keep the commandments." - Matthew 19:17 KJV

Good does not mean the usual connotation of nice, decent, etc. here. It means good as the essence of being, perfectly and completely and wholly and essentially good.

From the Amplified:
"Why do you ask Me about the perfectly and essentially good? There is only One Who is good [perfectly and essentially]- God. If you would enter into the Life, you must continually keep the commandments." - Matthew 19:17 Amplified

So you see, there are good people. And yet they are not good in the way that Jesus describes in the particular passage of Matthew 19:17, because there He did not mean good in the normal connotation in English. In most of the uses of the word "good" in the Bible, it means something akin to righteous, decent, kind, following the right path, etc. However, in the particular phrase of Matthew 19:17, "good" means good as the essence of what something is. Only God is good as His very essence. The rest of us, even if we are good in the usual sense, are still impure.

I think these passages and the exploration into the meaning of the Greek shows why it is really important, when interpreting the Bible, to study diligently, using all the resources we have to understand the original context and language of the scripture. English is a problematic language for many passages compared to Greek and Aramaic, and these problems are easy to run into. Fortunately, God gives us the Spirit to guide us spiritually, and our fantastic brains (and Biblical scholars) to produce works that can help us understand the history, culture, and languages of the Bible.

Hopefully this is helpful for you, Silas.

 

[Cage]

Apparently Jesus thought there were some good people around, for He said:

"That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust." - Matthew 5:45 KJV

And again:
"A good man out of the good treasure of the heart brigeth forth good things" - Matthew 12:35 KJV

There are lots and lots more. Just do a quick perusal for the word "good" used to describe people in the Bible.

I think what is problematic here is that you are defining "good" in only one way, making the Bible seem contradictory. If Jesus says none are good but God, and yet also talks about good people (see the above quotes), it appears problematic.

In fact, these passages are not problematic or contradictory at all. It's just you have to dig deeper than the basic English, which is notoriously problematic for translating the Greek. One helpful resource in this endeavor is the Amplified Bible, since it will explain further what the Greek actually means.

In the passages quoted above, no further explanation was necessary. "Good" meant what it generally does in everyday English- decent, nice, kind, unselfish, seeking after what is just and right, etc. In the passage:

"Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt eneter into life, keep the commandments." - Matthew 19:17 KJV

Good does not mean the usual connotation of nice, decent, etc. here. It means good as the essence of being, perfectly and completely and wholly and essentially good.

From the Amplified:
"Why do you ask Me about the perfectly and essentially good? There is only One Who is good [perfectly and essentially]- God. If you would enter into the Life, you must continually keep the commandments." - Matthew 19:17 Amplified

So you see, there are good people. And yet they are not good in the way that Jesus describes in the particular passage of Matthew 19:17, because there He did not mean good in the normal connotation in English. In most of the uses of the word "good" in the Bible, it means something akin to righteous, decent, kind, following the right path, etc. However, in the particular phrase of Matthew 19:17, "good" means good as the essence of what something is. Only God is good as His very essence. The rest of us, even if we are good in the usual sense, are still impure.

I think these passages and the exploration into the meaning of the Greek shows why it is really important, when interpreting the Bible, to study diligently, using all the resources we have to understand the original context and language of the scripture. English is a problematic language for many passages compared to Greek and Aramaic, and these problems are easy to run into. Fortunately, God gives us the Spirit to guide us spiritually, and our fantastic brains (and Biblical scholars) to produce works that can help us understand the history, culture, and languages of the Bible.

Hopefully this is helpful for you, Silas.

Thank you for that post, path_of_one. It was quite helpful to me.



Love,

 

[Silas]

Quahom

Paul was speaking for himself and his own time...bro. God decride other in the Old testament. He personally named those that were righteous. Before Jesus' walk on earth, there were righteous people, and God took note of that fact. Today there are righteous people who know Christ not, and God the Father takes note of that fact.

Scriptures teach that man is made or counted righteous only through faith. The OT saints trusted in the promise to come and the NT saints trusted in the promise that came, Jesus. God imputes Christ' rightouness in His saints and Christ suffered our sins in His body. There's the trade and thats whats makes us righeous. Not we ourselves or anyone else themselves, but it has always been that we are counted righteous in Christ. The book of Romans speak about this a lot. About people being righteous apart from Christ? Impossible with the God of the Bible, for He says that all work not done in faith [in Christ] is sin and that all the good people do apart from Christ is filty rags. God the Father only takes note of people trusting in Jesus. That much is certain from scripture.

Perhaps that is the point of the Bible which states "The laws are written on the hearts of every man..."

It is and for good reason - namely to show that man have no excuse before God, for He knows that EVERY TIME he sins, He does it with knowledge that its wrong since His God given Conscience testifies to the fact that the laws of God are written on His heart.

I'm gonna vent another issue to US CHRISTIANS. Who the hell wan'ts to listen to a bunch of self righteous hypocrits (sp), telling everyone else they are doomed to hell, when we are like one step away from the same place?

"There is no condemnation for those in Christ" God says. Also, Ive never met a self righteous Christian. Only sinners that know that they too deserve to be in the deepest part of Hell, but ONLY by God's grace in Sovereign election, they have been speard. As a result, they become fishers of men, hoping to save other lost men, bearing the reproach of those who call them selfrighteous among other names.

And Silias. Don't tell me again that what I quote isn't true...unless you have damn good proof...that really pisses me off. You don't know your bible as well as you think you do.

Im a young Christian and Im certian I dont know MOST of the BIble at all! That said, I must say that you come off as a really angry person. I want you to know that Jesus likens that to murder. Its a heart issue with God. Hearts that are lustful are liken to be adulterers for lack of chance and hearts that hate are liken to murderers for lack of oppurnity, which is due to God's grace, incidentally. Im not as bad as I can be, you're not as bad as you can be, and Hitler wasnt as bad as he could have been, only because God didnt permit it. Again, its a heart issue with God, not so much what you do physically. What you do physically are reflexs of what your heart desiers. Thats why men are guilty before God. Repent and Trust in Jesus.

And for the cheap seats. God found Lot and David righteous...chew on that for awhile.

OK.

 

[Saltmeister]

We are responsible regardless of God's input or not.

You are still Cage...only you have a different attitude. Same power, same character, same personality, same weaknesses, same strengths, same phisique, same shape, and same face. Only now, there is a difference within you. And in short order (trust me), people will notice a difference, and actually ask you "what is different"?

You will not, and do not feel or see anything different about yourself...but others will.

mark my words

What you said makes a bit more sense in this post. I wasn't so sure when I was reading your first post. But now I think I get it.

Paul's attitude changed, but his identity did not. His attitude was his style of interaction. His identity was his perception of his purpose.

Before his conversion, Paul was a man of ideology. After he converted, he was still man of ideology.

Paul had a structured approach to religion. That didn't change. He was into structuring, technicalising, systematising and compartmentalising concepts in a religion. Things were either black or white. Numerical values were always whole numbers and never anything in-between. Everything went into some kind of box to be classified and labelled.

That was Paul's identity and his unique contribution to Christianity. That is not to say that he was the only man of ideology. Countless Christians in history were driven by ideology. Actually, ideology is the common mode of operation and function in churches worldwide. Most of us are "Pauline," not in the teachings we believe in (as in "Pauline" Christianity), but in style and approach to Christianity. Most of us are driven by ideology.

Anyone remember Bruce Lee, that famous Kung Fu philosopher in America? For most of the history of Kung Fu, I'd have to assume, people had to take a structured approach to Kung Fu, strictly formalising, technicalising and systematising its concepts, in order to preserve its meaning. Bruce Lee went against that kind of thinking and came up with the "style with no style" approach to Kung Fu.

The difference between Pauline and non-Pauline Christianity is a bit like that. You could say it's the difference between orthodox and non-orthodox (Note: I don't mean "Pauline" as in "Paul's teachings" but "Paul's style and approach" to Christianity.) This doesn't have anything to do with whether or not you reject Paul's teachings. I'm just using Paul as a paradigm.

Bruce Lee was the opposite of Paul. Denominational and conservative Christians could be said to be "Pauline" in style, while mystical, gnostic, free-thinker and non-denominational Christians could be said to be "Bruce Lee" in style. "Pauline" Christians are those who are taught to conform to some kind of style. "Bruce Lee" Christians are those don't conform to any style. (lol, Christianity is a religion of paradigms.)

But Paul wasn't stupid. He knew a structured approach to religion didn't always work, which was why he became Christian. What he contributed was insight into the weaknesses of ideology and logical thinking.

 

[Quahom1]

Quahom

Paul was speaking for himself and his own time...bro. God decride other in the Old testament. He personally named those that were righteous. Before Jesus' walk on earth, there were righteous people, and God took note of that fact. Today there are righteous people who know Christ not, and God the Father takes note of that fact.

Scriptures teach that man is made or counted righteous only through faith. The OT saints trusted in the promise to come and the NT saints trusted in the promise that came, Jesus. God imputes Christ' rightouness in His saints and Christ suffered our sins in His body. There's the trade and thats whats makes us righeous. Not we ourselves or anyone else themselves, but it has always been that we are counted righteous in Christ. The book of Romans speak about this a lot. About people being righteous apart from Christ? Impossible with the God of the Bible, for He says that all work not done in faith [in Christ] is sin and that all the good people do apart from Christ is filty rags. God the Father only takes note of people trusting in Jesus. That much is certain from scripture.

Perhaps that is the point of the Bible which states "The laws are written on the hearts of every man..."

It is and for good reason - namely to show that man have no excuse before God, for He knows that EVERY TIME he sins, He does it with knowledge that its wrong since His God given Conscience testifies to the fact that the laws of God are written on His heart.

I'm gonna vent another issue to US CHRISTIANS. Who the hell wan'ts to listen to a bunch of self righteous hypocrits (sp), telling everyone else they are doomed to hell, when we are like one step away from the same place?

"There is no condemnation for those in Christ" God says. Also, Ive never met a self righteous Christian. Only sinners that know that they too deserve to be in the deepest part of Hell, but ONLY by God's grace in Sovereign election, they have been speard. As a result, they become fishers of men, hoping to save other lost men, bearing the reproach of those who call them selfrighteous among other names.

And Silias. Don't tell me again that what I quote isn't true...unless you have damn good proof...that really pisses me off. You don't know your bible as well as you think you do.

Im a young Christian and Im certian I dont know MOST of the BIble at all! That said, I must say that you come off as a really angry person. I want you to know that Jesus likens that to murder. Its a heart issue with God. Hearts that are lustful are liken to be adulterers for lack of chance and hearts that hate are liken to murderers for lack of oppurnity, which is due to God's grace, incidentally. Im not as bad as I can be, you're not as bad as you can be, and Hitler wasnt as bad as he could have been, only because God didnt permit it. Again, its a heart issue with God, not so much what you do physically. What you do physically are reflexs of what your heart desiers. Thats why men are guilty before God. Repent and Trust in Jesus.

And for the cheap seats. God found Lot and David righteous...chew on that for awhile.

OK.

Angry am I? You have not seen me angry...

But I do think I have some incling of what I am talking about. And I am not a new Christian, by a long shot. I also know that upstarts think they know everything, and that is where fights begin. And please, don't lecture me on murder or God's view on anger...that is just plain inappropriate.

Scriptures teach us that there are righteous men and women. They are such from birth, or due to a cataclysm that changes their perspective on life. Faith is never brought into the righteous question.

Such is a gift from God to some from birth. That is just the way it is.

The rest of us have to learn about it, the hard way.

v/r

Joshua

 

[Quahom1]

What you said makes a bit more sense in this post. I wasn't so sure when I was reading your first post. But now I think I get it.

Paul's attitude changed, but his identity did not. His attitude was his style of interaction. His identity was his perception of his purpose.

Before his conversion, Paul was a man of ideology. After he converted, he was still man of ideology.

Paul had a structured approach to religion. That didn't change. He was into structuring, technicalising, systematising and compartmentalising concepts in a religion. Things were either black or white. Numerical values were always whole numbers and never anything in-between. Everything went into some kind of box to be classified and labelled.

That was Paul's identity and his unique contribution to Christianity. That is not to say that he was the only man of ideology. Countless Christians in history were driven by ideology. Actually, ideology is the common mode of operation and function in churches worldwide. Most of us are "Pauline," not in the teachings we believe in (as in "Pauline" Christianity), but in style and approach to Christianity. Most of us are driven by ideology.

Anyone remember Bruce Lee, that famous Kung Fu philosopher in America? For most of the history of Kung Fu, I'd have to assume, people had to take a structured approach to Kung Fu, strictly formalising, technicalising and systematising its concepts, in order to preserve its meaning. Bruce Lee went against that kind of thinking and came up with the "style with no style" approach to Kung Fu.

The difference between Pauline and non-Pauline Christianity is a bit like that. You could say it's the difference between orthodox and non-orthodox (Note: I don't mean "Pauline" as in "Paul's teachings" but "Paul's style and approach" to Christianity.) This doesn't have anything to do with whether or not you reject Paul's teachings. I'm just using Paul as a paradigm.

Bruce Lee was the opposite of Paul. Denominational and conservative Christians could be said to be "Pauline" in style, while mystical, gnostic, free-thinker and non-denominational Christians could be said to be "Bruce Lee" in style. "Pauline" Christians are those who are taught to conform to some kind of style. "Bruce Lee" Christians are those don't conform to any style. (lol, Christianity is a religion of paradigms.)

But Paul wasn't stupid. He knew a structured approach to religion didn't always work, which was why he became Christian. What he contributed was insight into the weaknesses of ideology and logical thinking.

EXACTLY SALT! Paul's heart changed, but his will was never touched by God. Same goes with the rest of us. (the bruce lee thing was a neet touch)

God does not modify us once we accept Him (not our basic design anyway). Only our hearts are changed. Case in point:

I know a man who was a thief. Damn good thief too, never got caught. Anyway, he came to Christ. "What do I do now?" he asks God. "What you always have done..." was the answer he got. He thought about it for a few years, then realized what God was telling him...he could unlock anything!

So, he went to the police (after seven years, he wasn't stupid), and offered his services as a consultant (for free), then he began to speak to children at schools about his life, and how this was not the way they wanted to go. They invariably asked him, what changed his heart... ("What made you Change?"). He said, "God changed my heart". pin drop...

He was still unlocking doors, only now it was the doors to childrens' hearts for God to come in...

what a thief...

v/r

Joshua

 

[Faithfulservant]

Where in scripture do you see that? Abraham used to be Abram, a gentile who had no faith in the true God. In fact, he was just like everyone else in his country. Yet, God Soverignly elected this man to the faith and promised that through Him, all of God's people will be named. The whole OT is filled with God's election and the NT brings it to light and makes it obvious, I think.

In Christ!

I said Abraham had grace because he had faith first...

a gentile is a Non-jew.. abram was pre-jew and also pre-gentile.. so thats incorrect.

Heb11:8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going.

Heb11:17By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

Better yet read all of hebrews chapter 11

How can you not know thats in the bible..

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,


Im confused are you saying we dont have grace through faith?

 

[Faithfulservant]

Righteuos maybe, but not good, Quahom. Jesus tells us so..."There is none good, but the father" Jesus even neglected to suggest that he was good...

17. And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.


Love,

I love you Cage but I need to add something just to try to clarify... the MAN Jesus said He cannot be called good because He was lesser than the Father God in flesh.. but He was still God. So the MAN cannot be called good.. but God is Good. He emptied himself out and put Himself into submission to God and subjected Himself to the will of the Father.. it was an example for all of us.. His whole life was an example to us. You and I would agree on this. We would have to call Him a liar and a blasphemer for allowing people to worship Him since it went against everything He taught..

Im posting a link that addresses this.. its an interesting and informative read.

Apologetics Press - Did Jesus Christ Exist in the Form of God While on Earth?

 

[Faithfulservant]

Im just going to say something..

People need to quit laying stumbling blocks before other people...

Crosswalk.com - romans 14

Its horrible. Im seeing a lot of spiritual pride in some of these posts and Im guilty of some of it.. thank you Jesus for revealing my sin to me.. Its a serious offense and that pride will be a stumbling block to yourself.. watch it happen.. you start thinking your so smart that you have the answer and you just sinned a horrible sin.

Danger In Spiritual Pride

 

[path_of_one]

Im just going to say something..

People need to quit laying stumbling blocks before other people...

I agree, FS. I think the difficulty with some of these threads is that they were not set up to be real questioning and dialogue. They are started in the form of a question but rapidly become preaching to the choir and trying to convert all Christians to the same interpretation of the Bible.

As I'm sure you know, it can be very difficult to be patient when the conversation is set up to be that way, and it is challenging to disagree with others while still encouraging them in their faith.

I've been trying to encourage Silas while also standing firm in what I believe, because I have reasons for interpreting things the way I do. I sincerely hope that my posts will not cause Silas or anyone else to stumble, but rather to grow strong in their faith through careful exploration of the scriptures (whether they wind up agreeing with me one day or not).

 

[Silas]

Faithfulservant

I said Abraham had grace because he had faith first... a gentile is a Non-jew.. abram was pre-jew and also pre-gentile.. so thats incorrect.

Heb11:8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going.

Heb11:17By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

Better yet read all of hebrews chapter 11

How can you not know thats in the bible..

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, Im confused are you saying we dont have grace through faith?

No beloved of God. What I'm saying is simply this:

We are saved by GRACE alone, through our FAITH alone, and in CHRIST alone. We both have that basic construct. You however, as must Christians do, opt for free will inasmuch as you believe God foresees faith and elects or saves people that He foreknew would have faith. I'm saying that God's election is not based on foreseen faith, or any good or other merit in the person because the person had no faith or any good, but was just as bad as anyone else, and God's election is rooted in "His own good pleasure." Therefore, He has mercy on whom He wills. Futhermore, faith is something God gives us, not what we give to God and since thats the case, ALL of salvation, from the gifts of "faith" to "repentence" to "Grace" is ALL of God and none of man. So when Abraham is made righteous by his faith (as everyone else will be), Im saying that His faith was a gift from God and not something He himself produced. I hope that made a little sense?

 

[Silas]

I love you Cage but I need to add something just to try to clarify... the MAN Jesus said He cannot be called good because He was lesser than the Father God in flesh.. but He was still God. So the MAN cannot be called good.. but God is Good. http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/264

Sorry, but I believe you misunderstood our Lord's words. He didnt say that He wasnt good. He said only God is good. He was once again showing them who He really was. They all knew Him to be a good person from youth, so when He said "There is none good but God," He wasnt removing Himself from the equation, but showing that He is God. As you know as a Christian, if Jesus wasnt good, His sacrifice would have not saved us because He wouldnt be a perfect sacrificial lamb but a blemished one (which is not premitted). But thank God that the God-Man was both a pefect man (2nd Adam) and God at the same time. He freed us from the bondage of sin and gave us a passion for His glory that we may live to know Him forever.

 

[path_of_one]

But logically, Silas-

If people are only saved through election by God, and God will elect these people no matter what their will is, what is the point of evangelism?

Why would we be called upon by Christ to spread the gospel, if it doesn't matter?

If people do not have the free will to choose God, and some people will be destined for faith and others not by God Himself, it sets up some big problems:

1. That people really do not have free will, when the Bible says they do. If people are incapable of choosing to have faith in God, in choosing the narrow path, then how can people be held responsible at all for their actions? After all, if it is up to God and not to ourselves if we follow Christ, then those who do not follow Christ are excused from that- as they could not choose to follow him. You get what I'm saying here?

2. It sets God up to be playing favorites, for no apparent reason. If I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying that He is not calling all people to Him, but only some. The rest He presumably ignores or destines for hell. Well, that is in direct contradiction to Bible verses that say He desires that all come to Him, and it is also in contradiction to His essence- Love- and His nature revealed through Jesus Christ, who came not for the healthy but rather for the sick. There are numerous places in the NT in which people are healed because they have faith- just think of the woman who was healed simply by having faith and touching the hem of His robe.

3. It makes evangelism pointless. If everyone who will be saved was already ordained to be saved, and the rest of the people haven't the free will to choose God anyway, it's kind of pointless to try to spread the Good News. You'd either be preaching to the already converted or sowing seed on infertile ground.

Sorry, but I just don't buy the doctrine of election. People were created with free will. We are saved by God's grace through Jesus Christ, but we have to make the choice to accept that Gift. God reaches out to ALL people in love, but we have to make the choice to reach back.