Christianity used as a tool of oppression?

[path_of_one]

1. It happens... I am saying what I see from day to day experience... I am not the one condeming people to hell..

2. And there are again many more that do go by how I said.

3. You think only in west this is a problem? I would agree it can be seen as an issue, in my way of thinking indeed anything that isn't religious has many ways to get the right answer, but say in christian religions "I am the way and the saviour" - jesus or whatever he said... Then take a religion where jesus isn't even involved one of those religions has to be telling porky pies.. I can't understand how both can be right.

4. Majority of humans, I am afraid only remember and comment on the bad things, rarely the good.

5. There pretty much has never been anything that hasn't been corrupted.

6. see 4 ;/

1. And many of us are not condemning people to hell either. Some Christians don't even believe in a physical, literal hell. But I feel for you if your daily experience of Christians is of the type that condemn you or others, or that are not loving. I can only say that I know many that are not like this, and I know some that are like this. All groups are diverse like that.

2. A lot of it depends on the Christian community you come into contact with. But again, I can understand how you feel. I've been persecuted for my beliefs at times, but I think it is a human thing to do, not a specifically Christian thing. I can elaborate if necessary.

3. No, but I think Western culture exacerbates this kind of thinking. In China, for example, it is perfectly normal to be both Taoist and Confucian, though the two can be polar opposites on certain topics. One can be Shinto and Buddhist in Japan, even though the two are not in perfect unity. It is in the West that we most frequently get into this mode of thinking. I'll give you a hint here of why I do not think dualistic thinking is necessary in Christianity... perhaps Christ is the only way to salvation, but people do not have to identify as a Christian or even have heard of the Bible to be saved by Christ? Remember, Christ is more than Jesus. Jesus was the embodiment of the Christ; the Christ is an eternal person of God. Other religions do not have to be telling lies, but perhaps they are attempting to describe authentic experience of God, but are lacking the gospels as a lense to frame their descriptions?

4. And thus contribute greatly to their misery. I can say for myself, when I persevere in focusing on the good in other people and the world around me, I am joyful. I try to see the potential in other people, not their faults. I try to see others as an opportunity to serve Christ, no matter who they are. This isn't just about being "good" and selfless. Really, it's the best thing for me to let Christ gradually make me better at this. It helped tremendously with my tendency toward depression.

5. Yeah, that's a main part of the Christian story, really. Though sometimes I think nature has not been corrupted... more like we've forgotten how to relate to it. But that's the Druid coming forward...

6. And... see #4

 

[17th Angel]

1. And many of us are not condemning people to hell either. Some Christians don't even believe in a physical, literal hell. But I feel for you if your daily experience of Christians is of the type that condemn you or others, or that are not loving. I can only say that I know many that are not like this, and I know some that are like this. All groups are diverse like that.

2. A lot of it depends on the Christian community you come into contact with. But again, I can understand how you feel. I've been persecuted for my beliefs at times, but I think it is a human thing to do, not a specifically Christian thing. I can elaborate if necessary.

3. No, but I think Western culture exacerbates this kind of thinking. In China, for example, it is perfectly normal to be both Taoist and Confucian, though the two can be polar opposites on certain topics. One can be Shinto and Buddhist in Japan, even though the two are not in perfect unity. It is in the West that we most frequently get into this mode of thinking. I'll give you a hint here of why I do not think dualistic thinking is necessary in Christianity... perhaps Christ is the only way to salvation, but people do not have to identify as a Christian or even have heard of the Bible to be saved by Christ? Remember, Christ is more than Jesus. Jesus was the embodiment of the Christ; the Christ is an eternal person of God. Other religions do not have to be telling lies, but perhaps they are attempting to describe authentic experience of God, but are lacking the gospels as a lense to frame their descriptions?

4. And thus contribute greatly to their misery. I can say for myself, when I persevere in focusing on the good in other people and the world around me, I am joyful. I try to see the potential in other people, not their faults. I try to see others as an opportunity to serve Christ, no matter who they are. This isn't just about being "good" and selfless. Really, it's the best thing for me to let Christ gradually make me better at this. It helped tremendously with my tendency toward depression.

5. Yeah, that's a main part of the Christian story, really. Though sometimes I think nature has not been corrupted... more like we've forgotten how to relate to it. But that's the Druid coming forward...

6. And... see #4

1. I know many do not, but many do, and it baffles me how you can get two sides to something that is based on love...

2. Go on.

3. What is the point in the bible then? If you do not need the bible and its "knowledge" to be saved...

4. Misery? Or is it something more? Like, I can be riding on my bike if a car cuts me off, or there is a car infront of me purposly driving slow where I can't over take then fast where I can easily pass. To complain and scream and want to dive head first to the floor frustration makes me as a human feel better lol.... To scream shout and complain is to let it out... But If I am riding and nothing is happening... Just a simple clear journey... There isn't really anything to comment on... Get to your destination... "how was it getting here?" "fine thanks..." OR "how as it getting here..." "The traffic was terrible! Then this one fool cut me off! Got stuck behind a freaking tractor for 30 mins! That part of the journey should only have taken 5!!" I doubt that will come across in logic like it does to me... ;/

5. Nature not corrupted? The shark... lovley animal... JAWS the movies!! ARGH evil sea monsters! Man then proceeds to take out most of the Great White population.... Or the deserts? Or the rain forests... ;/ They are changed/manipulated/destroyed or whatever by the corruption of man Also, Druid... Wouldn't a Druid say... something like errr... That rainforest was made by creative energy within the forest, but a christian would say their god made the rainforest? Just, seeing how you like... Come to your answer on things like that..

6. See 4. ;}

 

[cavalier]

My view of those Christians who don't believe as I do is that I can't know their heart and mind and it is not for me to judge them. Basically, I refrain from thinking at all about how their beliefs stack up, so to speak, against my own. My own beliefs are a work in progress (and I suspect will be until I die and God finishes His work in me), so I don't claim to have THE answer, just the one that resonates with my walk with God and my reading of the scriptures thus far. I share what I believe, but I don't seek to change others' beliefs, nor would I say that it makes them lesser or misguided.

Perhaps what is good and helpful for one person to believe in this matter (i.e., what causes them to be more loving, to be more Christ-like, to be more dedicated to sharing Christ with others) is not what is right for another. I know that for me, to believe in this way helps me to be more kind, patient, and loving toward other people, and to share Christ with people that do not respond well to outright proselytizing (which is true in most of the circles I run in). For other people, the opposite view may work better to effect the same response in their lives and their communities.

Basically, in terms of what is "right," especially in the realm of doctrine, I more or less focus on my own relationship to God. I find it interesting and often enlightening to have dialogue with others about their beliefs, but I do not attempt to discern what is right for them. Instead, I try to discern if their views are right for me. And then I leave it at that. This is partially why I generally include the disclaimers "according to my experience," "in my opinion," "I believe," and also acknowledge that many of my beliefs are considered liberal by Christians today. It helps give people a heads-up of where I'm coming from and (hopefully) make it clear that I don't think everyone should think just as I do.

That's a great answer
I apologise for questioning your integrity.

 

[path_of_one]

That's a great answer
I apologise for questioning your integrity.

Thanks, but your question was actually quite good, and I wasn't offended in the least.

I think speaks to another problem that is going on in Christianity and in the U.S. in general, which is that just as the conservatives often attack the liberals for not being right, the liberals attack the conservatives for being unenlightened.

It's a two-way street, and I'm aware of that in part because of my sometimes awkward position on the continuum. I sometimes get flak from both sides. So in some ways, I can sympathize with both extremes, though I would call myself a moderate overall (a sort of averaging out of some very liberal and some very conservative beliefs and practices).

 

[path_of_one]

1. I know many do not, but many do, and it baffles me how you can get two sides to something that is based on love...

2. Go on.

3. What is the point in the bible then? If you do not need the bible and its "knowledge" to be saved...

4. Misery? Or is it something more? Like, I can be riding on my bike if a car cuts me off, or there is a car infront of me purposly driving slow where I can't over take then fast where I can easily pass. To complain and scream and want to dive head first to the floor frustration makes me as a human feel better lol.... To scream shout and complain is to let it out... But If I am riding and nothing is happening... Just a simple clear journey... There isn't really anything to comment on... Get to your destination... "how was it getting here?" "fine thanks..." OR "how as it getting here..." "The traffic was terrible! Then this one fool cut me off! Got stuck behind a freaking tractor for 30 mins! That part of the journey should only have taken 5!!" I doubt that will come across in logic like it does to me... ;/

5. Nature not corrupted? The shark... lovley animal... JAWS the movies!! ARGH evil sea monsters! Man then proceeds to take out most of the Great White population.... Or the deserts? Or the rain forests... ;/ They are changed/manipulated/destroyed or whatever by the corruption of man Also, Druid... Wouldn't a Druid say... something like errr... That rainforest was made by creative energy within the forest, but a christian would say their god made the rainforest? Just, seeing how you like... Come to your answer on things like that..

6. See 4. ;}

Didn't want you to feel ignored, 17th. I have to go to work, but will respond tonight!

I may have to start a little thread to answer these- much rests on my views of human nature (in part from anthropology) and my views as both Christian and Druid about nature. But I will say to get the thoughts flowing... human nature is much of why any group of people is not uniformly in alignment with their professed beliefs. And as for #5... destruction by man is not the same as corruption, which is a change from within. Earth can be maimed or killed without being personally corrupted, just as a saint can be martyred without being corrupted in their faith. Some Christians believe in the fall of Earth/Nature when humans fell. I don't. But all this gets outside the range of this conversation, I think, so I'll probably split that thread into its own tonight.

 

[17th Angel]

4. You don't have to make another thread if you don't wish to... Maybe a bit of hassle for you, but yeah it would be interesting to read more of a christian/neopagan's faith and how they can not get entangled and so on...


see 4.

 

[path_of_one]

4. You don't have to make another thread if you don't wish to... Maybe a bit of hassle for you, but yeah it would be interesting to read more of a christian/neopagan's faith and how they can not get entangled and so on...


see 4.

Then I'll just respond briefly to what is relevant to this thread, and leave the rest for later. I am curious what responses I'd get from people about Nature and the fall, though, so I do plan to post, but perhaps tomorrow. My day was really long and I'm a little brain dead.

As for an intro to one of the many ways Christianity is integrated with Druidry for me, I wrote "God and the Elements" a while back, and it should be kind of apparent how the two overlap in my case. Some Druid groups (and individual Druids) practice Druidry as a religion and are polytheistic, while others integrate modern Druidic philosophy and practice with their pre-existing religion (Christianity, Judaism, and Buddhism are not uncommon, and there are atheist and agnostic Druids too).

 

[path_of_one]

1. I know many do not, but many do, and it baffles me how you can get two sides to something that is based on love...

2. Go on.

3. What is the point in the bible then? If you do not need the bible and its "knowledge" to be saved...

4. Misery? Or is it something more? Like, I can be riding on my bike if a car cuts me off, or there is a car infront of me purposly driving slow where I can't over take then fast where I can easily pass. To complain and scream and want to dive head first to the floor frustration makes me as a human feel better lol.... To scream shout and complain is to let it out... But If I am riding and nothing is happening... Just a simple clear journey... There isn't really anything to comment on... Get to your destination... "how was it getting here?" "fine thanks..." OR "how as it getting here..." "The traffic was terrible! Then this one fool cut me off! Got stuck behind a freaking tractor for 30 mins! That part of the journey should only have taken 5!!" I doubt that will come across in logic like it does to me... ;/

5. Nature not corrupted? The shark... lovley animal... JAWS the movies!! ARGH evil sea monsters! Man then proceeds to take out most of the Great White population.... Or the deserts? Or the rain forests... ;/ They are changed/manipulated/destroyed or whatever by the corruption of man Also, Druid... Wouldn't a Druid say... something like errr... That rainforest was made by creative energy within the forest, but a christian would say their god made the rainforest? Just, seeing how you like... Come to your answer on things like that..

6. See 4. ;}

1 and 2. Human nature. Just because the principles say to love doesn't mean everyone who reads them (or takes the label associated with them) will really listen. This is why Jesus clearly said that some who said "Lord, Lord" will not enter the Kingdom- their hearts were not really in it for God, but rather for themselves. He also said, "Those who have ears, let him hear." This indicates there would be people who would know the scriptures, but wouldn't have anything sink in and change them. We are to discern people's intentions as we would trees by their fruit- a good tree produces good fruit, a bad tree, bad fruit. When we see people becoming more like Christ over time, they are really in Christ. Those who are not, are not. We can't judge Christ and His teaching by those who aren't really listening to Him or following God's will anyway. Humans who are bent on serving themselves can twist anything you give them to do so.

3. I believe the Bible has many gifts to give us. First, it tells us the story of how much God loves us, that God has eternally had a person/an essence of Himself that is His mercy and grace. That God forgives us our many trespasses and saves us with His grace, though I believe it is painful for Him to do (as He is perfectly holy and we are not before our final transformation), is a great sacrifice on His part that draws humanity into Him. Jesus was the embodiment of this sacrifice and eternal Christ on earth, and provides us a message of hope, love, and peace from God- a way to show us that God loves us enough to suffer what we suffer and more, to take on all the sins we ever have committed, and to bear these Himself so that we might be made perfect and in right relationship with Him. It is a gift to be able to read about it so plainly.

Second, it is the clearest message of what a perfect human being looks like, giving us clear direction. We have goals set for us, we have encouragement, and we know that God understands temptation and has given us a means to overcome it. Jesus showed us the way by being fully human, experiencing all the suffering and temptation we do, but also being fully God in spirit, and so consistently giving up Himself (his human ego) for the will of God, even when it cost Him dearly and was very difficult.

Third, the Bible is a beautiful record of people's experience of God and the history that led to Jesus Christ and the founding of the early church. It is inspiring and encouraging to a believer. It gives solace when we are hurting, hope for the future, and joy for each day.

You don't need knowledge to be saved, you just need Christ.

The Bible, however, is a great gift to those who are seeking to follow Christ and can be the impetus for those who are not yet doing so to begin their journey. As the Bible itself articulates the gospels far more eloquently than we can, and was divinely inspired, I feel that in some ways the text has a life of its own. It has the capacity to reach out to people, to draw them to God. This is why we spread the good news. I personally do not believe people must have had the scriptures to come to Christ, but that some people are saved in this manner. And for the rest of us, it is a great blessing.

4 and 6. I think it is logical what you are saying. Venting makes you feel better. I am not saying that we should shove all our negative feelings under a rug, for soon we'll trip over them. I'm saying that we should try to focus on what is positive rather than what is negative, from our very beginning of our daily focus. It is a journey toward controlling our own thoughts and emotional responses. I can't change the traffic, but I can change my response. I can plan to leave with extra time, turn on music or something that I enjoy, and choose to enjoy my time in the car. I can choose to pray for every driver I pass, or to wish them good things, or whatever. I can plan my workday. I don't have to spend the time frustrated and focused on the traffic itself. And so it goes with all of life. Of course, we're all prone to the occasional really bad day. But a lot of people are stuck in a permanent bad day, noticing everything bad in every person they meet and every aspect of life.

I will add, getting back more to the topic, that it is seriously unfair to compare any Christian with any non-Christian and say that Christianity doesn't work because the Christian person isn't as nice as the non-Christian person. People were not all created the same in our temperaments. Some people are naturally more difficult than others, and struggle far more with controlling anger or selfishness or depression than the next guy. The result of Christianity is not that it immediately makes all Christians better than non-Christians. It is that it makes each individual Christian better than they were when they were not Christian, and that improvement continues over time. A sociopath, for example, will always have limitations in terms of compassion. But Christianity would arguably make them better in this area over time, and indeed if they followed the commandments, would change their behavior even if they still struggled with proper internal feelings. But it would be unfair to compare the Christian sociopath to a nice, well-adjusted atheist. They are starting from two entirely different places.

 

[17th Angel]

Very early in the morning.... So haven't got much to say right now..... Ugh, I wish the weekend was still here... *weeps*

You don't need knowledge, you just need christ? Do you not need knowledge of christ? Like how do you know, if you have christ your saved... Wouldn't it tell you this in the bible? Because I don't think out of the blue, in your head you are going to think one day "Oh theres this bloke called christ and he is my saviour, I'd be a plonker not to follow him..." ;/ Anyway I need some breakfast... a smoke and a cup of coffee....