On TV: The Trouble with Atheism
- Thread starter Snoopy
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flowperson
Oannes
snoop:
Well thanks... but that doesn't help many of us true believers here across the pond in the colonies.
flow....
Well thanks... but that doesn't help many of us true believers here across the pond in the colonies.
flow....
I know, flow! But last time I flagged up a programme I was asked to upload it from my Blackcurrant via my WAP onto a blog to watch on YouTube or something like that. Needless to say I couldn't but maybe someone else could or knew where else it might crop up.
It was very interesting I thought, balanced and questioning of everything covered. If you can get to see it / tape it, I'd say it was worthwhile (repeated Friday 2.20am). NOT THURSDAY AS PREVIOUS!!!
s.
Channel 4 - Can you believe it? - Home
It was very interesting I thought, balanced and questioning of everything covered. If you can get to see it / tape it, I'd say it was worthwhile (repeated Friday 2.20am). NOT THURSDAY AS PREVIOUS!!!
s.
Channel 4 - Can you believe it? - Home
Caimanson
Mind or spirit?
I already missed it, hope to catch it on friday 2AM?
Found this link to the website, some interesting discussion points:
Channel 4 - Can you believe it? - Talking Point
Found this link to the website, some interesting discussion points:
Channel 4 - Can you believe it? - Talking Point
17th Angel
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Nice link.... BUT, I just don't see why people try and compare Atheism as a type of religion... It's not like people go around wanting to do nothing but preach there isn't a god or something... I don't wake up and say dedicate my life to beliving there isn't a god... Most people that "believe in atheism" lol... are just average every day people, they just couldn't give two trucks about religion.. They just carry on with everyday life. I will only bring up that I think the idea of a worshipping a god is pointless, fairy tale and nonsense in my opinion in a thread like this or when asked... I wouldn't go around just randomly preaching to people or giving them leaflets or spending my Sunday morning doing a non-god service.
to me, being an atheist is to just simply not to care for religion. It's a person who doesn't need religion. It's not someone trying to follow the "how to be an atheist" guidelines. There are no guidelines/rules.
Example... I -hate- soccer... It isn't something I enjoy or agree with... Just like? Religion! but is that a form of religion? That I don't like football? Course it isn't you silly goose.... :|
to me, being an atheist is to just simply not to care for religion. It's a person who doesn't need religion. It's not someone trying to follow the "how to be an atheist" guidelines. There are no guidelines/rules.
Example... I -hate- soccer... It isn't something I enjoy or agree with... Just like? Religion!
but is that a form of religion? That I don't like football? Course it isn't you silly goose.... :|Hi 17th,
Yes, on the individual level it is perhaps simply an absence of something but the title of the programme refers to atheism when at state level, i.e. association or involvement with communism and fascism, for example. The question posed was does absence of religion mean absence of a moral framework. Atrocities have been carried out in the name of religion but also in the name of no-religion.
s.
Yes, on the individual level it is perhaps simply an absence of something but the title of the programme refers to atheism when at state level, i.e. association or involvement with communism and fascism, for example. The question posed was does absence of religion mean absence of a moral framework. Atrocities have been carried out in the name of religion but also in the name of no-religion.
s.
17th Angel
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Hmmm I would say more is religion based than.... But then again as I have already said we are but humans The cute lovley race that just can't get it's fill of destruction and killing... "Can I have some more Sir?" Hmmm irony... Static X - The Only. Just came on my mp3 mwaha.
But then again as I have already said we are but humans The cute lovley race that just can't get it's fill of destruction and killing... "Can I have some more Sir?" Hmmm irony... Static X - The Only. Just came on my mp3 mwaha. Virtual_Cliff
Well-Known Member
Sounds interesting, Snoop. People often forget that Hitler, Stalin et al were confirmed atheists.
Caimanson, I think what you are describing is agnosticism, not atheism.
Personally I'm getting a bit teed off with some mad scientist popping up his head or writing a book about no-god every few months, all based on NO research, NO dialogue, NO understanding whatever. Perhaps I should write a book on why relativity is bunk, based on NO scientific research.
Oh, Happy Christmas all.
Caimanson, I think what you are describing is agnosticism, not atheism.
Personally I'm getting a bit teed off with some mad scientist popping up his head or writing a book about no-god every few months, all based on NO research, NO dialogue, NO understanding whatever. Perhaps I should write a book on why relativity is bunk, based on NO scientific research.
Oh, Happy Christmas all.
Virtual_Cliff
Well-Known Member
Just had a look at the link. Pity all the statements are rather simplistic. Not all believers have an unquestioning belief in sacred texts, for example.
"Atheists say that people made god to explain what they don't understand"; perhaps - and one of the things they don't understand is god. To some extent we have made the god we believe in to explain the one we don't understand.
I wonder if the TV debate is up to this level.
Cliff
"Atheists say that people made god to explain what they don't understand"; perhaps - and one of the things they don't understand is god. To some extent we have made the god we believe in to explain the one we don't understand.
I wonder if the TV debate is up to this level.
Cliff
Hi,
The programme was not so much a debate as a look at some of the issues around belief and non-belief. It included interviews with those on both sides of the fence as well as those resolutely sitting on the fence and those denying that there is a fence!
s.
Virtual_Cliff
Well-Known Member
Include me with the fence-denyers!
Eudaimonist
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bananabrain
awkward squadnik
actually, i saw that one - rod liddle, wasn't it?
i thought it was excellent. obviously, he went round and interviewed a bunch of the most militant atheists and that was all well and good and predictable. what was interesting was that he approached it from a PoV that i have long maintained, which is that atheism not only involves a disbelief in G!D, which is all very well, but sometimes involves an evangelistic (and i use the word intentionally) desire to "convert" other people to disbelief in G!D. and once it starts doing this, it starts behaving for all intents and purposes like a religion - the irony of this seeming to be lost on the militant atheists involved.
re hitler and stalin, hitler wasn't really an atheist as such. he believed in race, or whatever the hell it was that nazism was really about, eugenics and a sort of social darwinism (which was mentioned in the programme actually) derived from darwin's unpleasant cousin, francis galton. the presenter did of course point out that eugenics was not darwin's intent, in much the same way that suicide bombing and the crusades were undoubtedly not the intent of muhammad and jesus respectively.
for hitler, the state as the representative of the "master race" effectively replaced G!D, with the fuhrer as the prophet, the nazi party organisations as the clergy and the army as a necessary adjunct - the ss fulfilling much the same function as the monastic orders in mediaeval christianity, including their military aspect as manifested in the templars, hospitallers and so on.
communism of course, which was what stalin believed in (or at least maintained that he did and acted accordingly) holds atheism to be one of its tenets. of course, it also deifies the state, has its prophets in marx, lenin, stalin and mao and has the party organisations as clergy. it is, like nazism, a theocracy in all but name and no less totalitarian than that of, say, iran or saudi arabia.
now, obviously, i'm not saying that dawkins is as bad as the nazis or communists or whatever, but for him to deny that he has essentially cast science in the role of G!D, with darwin as one of the prophets and scientists as clergy, to me at least flies in the face of reality, particularly when he starts banging on about how we ought to get rid of religion - in other words, convert to "scientism".
b'shalom
bananabrain
i thought it was excellent. obviously, he went round and interviewed a bunch of the most militant atheists and that was all well and good and predictable. what was interesting was that he approached it from a PoV that i have long maintained, which is that atheism not only involves a disbelief in G!D, which is all very well, but sometimes involves an evangelistic (and i use the word intentionally) desire to "convert" other people to disbelief in G!D. and once it starts doing this, it starts behaving for all intents and purposes like a religion - the irony of this seeming to be lost on the militant atheists involved.
re hitler and stalin, hitler wasn't really an atheist as such. he believed in race, or whatever the hell it was that nazism was really about, eugenics and a sort of social darwinism (which was mentioned in the programme actually) derived from darwin's unpleasant cousin, francis galton. the presenter did of course point out that eugenics was not darwin's intent, in much the same way that suicide bombing and the crusades were undoubtedly not the intent of muhammad and jesus respectively.
for hitler, the state as the representative of the "master race" effectively replaced G!D, with the fuhrer as the prophet, the nazi party organisations as the clergy and the army as a necessary adjunct - the ss fulfilling much the same function as the monastic orders in mediaeval christianity, including their military aspect as manifested in the templars, hospitallers and so on.
communism of course, which was what stalin believed in (or at least maintained that he did and acted accordingly) holds atheism to be one of its tenets. of course, it also deifies the state, has its prophets in marx, lenin, stalin and mao and has the party organisations as clergy. it is, like nazism, a theocracy in all but name and no less totalitarian than that of, say, iran or saudi arabia.
now, obviously, i'm not saying that dawkins is as bad as the nazis or communists or whatever, but for him to deny that he has essentially cast science in the role of G!D, with darwin as one of the prophets and scientists as clergy, to me at least flies in the face of reality, particularly when he starts banging on about how we ought to get rid of religion - in other words, convert to "scientism".
what an elegant and subtle statement. i entirely agree. i shall quote that one extensively. judaism explains this by saying "the Torah speaks in human language" - in other words, we are forced to use the vocabulary we have to describe things that we don't have the vocabulary for.Virtual Cliff said:
b'shalom
bananabrain
17th Angel
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True but he was for sure not a Jew. And for sure not a christian... As Banana said.... His belife was in a master race nothing spiritual... On the 14th Oct 1941 he stated.... "The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.... When understanding of the universe has become widespread... Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity.... Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity.... And that's why someday its structure will collapse.... ...the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little.... Christianity the liar.... We'll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State."
He was certainly not a "spiritual man". I hear you cry; Well what bout the super secret part of the SS that was researching into supernatural ways to become supeiror... Different can of worms, kiddies. And the end of his quote.... Conflicts with the interests of the state? Whats that say to you?
juantoo3
....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb
Kindest Regards, all!
And any way one cares to slice the issue, Hitler in no way acted as representative of the whole, or even significant portion, of the Christian faith.
Hmmm, intriguing. I would not be surprized *if* Hitler did indeed issue such proclamation, although this is the first I have heard of this. Of course, it seems a tad counter-productive...considering a Concordat was signed with the Vatican. We might ask what a Concordat is, and I am certainly no expert. My understanding is that a Concordat is a legal "contract" of sorts legitimizing *only* Catholicism in those such countries as are party to said Concordat. In other words...perhaps Hitler was against *Protestant* Christianity, however, there are photos and other intriguing instruments (or so I hear) that hint that there must have been some political influence directly from the Vatican. I do not bring this up to disparage any denomination, rather to add to the discussion relating to Hitler and Christianity. Seems I recall reading somewhere that Hitler was being groomed to be the heir to Charlemagne, the next Holy Roman Emperor.
And any way one cares to slice the issue, Hitler in no way acted as representative of the whole, or even significant portion, of the Christian faith.
juantoo3
....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb
BTW, thanks for the discussion. Didn't get to see the program, although I probably would have if available. I especially appreciate BB's post.
seattlegal
Mercuræn Buddhist
seattlegal
Mercuræn Buddhist
seattlegal
Mercuræn Buddhist
What I find interesting with this is that the program addressed this issue to a point through this line of reasoning from the scientific viewpoint embraced by Hitler:
- Civilization negates the processes of natural selection by protecting the weak. They don't get "weeded out" through "natural selection" in a civilized society. Evolution stops without natural selection, so civilization stops evolution.
- Eugenics is the "civilized" way to replace "natural selection" as a means to "separate the wheat from the chaff," so to speak, so "evolution can continue."
- However, there is something inherent in man that stops man from employing eugenics--our conscience.
It seems that Hitler was embracing a more Atheistic line of reasoning than a Christian one, IMHO.Adolf Hitler said:
seattlegal
Mercuræn Buddhist
Here are some more interesting points to ponder that this program brought forward, IMHO:
- The Pyramid of Complexity, as presented by one person in the program, has a question mark at its base. {Compare to the quantum Uncertainty Principle and the ideas presented in the Rush to be Right thread.}
- The search for an Atheistic morality based upon reason. {doesn't it all come down to the Principle of Reciprocity, or The Golden Rule?}
- The idea put forward that science employs metaphors to explain concepts just as much as religion does, which leads towards scientific theories being expanded beyond their scientific limits.
- The idea that the potential for novelty spreads recessively throughout a given population until it reaches a "critical mass," which leads to a "sudden manifestation of novelty." This would run contrary to the idea of natural selection being the "driving force" behind evolution. What exactly is the "driving force" behind the sudden manifestation of novelty, then?