the virgin? mary, noah and adam...

Kindest Regards, China Cat!


Just stickin' my quick two cents in, haven't really followed the thread, but yeah, these are the kinds of questions that keep me on my toes and wondering...

Well, it's just that I'm intensely interested in the intrinsic mystery of the whole thing. I've been working on it for twenty five years, I'm no where close to being able to say I know, and I probably never will be. But I'm passionately interested because it has to do with the whole mystery of how life and everything works. Logos: What is it, how does it work, what are its manifestations...? You know?

Chris
 
Well, it's just that I'm intensely interested in the intrinsic mystery of the whole thing. I've been working on it for twenty five years, I'm no where close to being able to say I know, and I probably never will be. But I'm passionately interested because it has to do with the whole mystery of how life and everything works. Logos: What is it, how does it work, what are its manifestations...? You know?

Chris

Seek and ye shall find, ask and it shall be given to you, knock and the door shall be opened. I think you will find what you are looking for if you keep at it Chris...

v/r

Joshua
 
Hi Chris:

I really, really appreciate this resource Thomas! I'm going to have to check this out and mull it over. How do you get turned on to all this great stuff?

Not me, pal! After 30 odd years wandering here and there I'm doing a distance-learning degree in Catholic Theology, and every essay (one a month!) comes back with a mark, a comment, and a 'now look at ...' – I had largely avoided Derrida, post-modernism and deconstruction, etc., until my tutor pointed out that is the area where the real theology is happening at the moment ... the interface between orthodoxy and relativism.

(The clue is avoid anglo-american, which is stuck in examining the minutae, and look at continental philosophy - it's far more holistic)

I've got a reading list so far that will see me right for another 30 odd years, God willing!

The BIG difference is I am not pointed towards popular texts and the spirituality shelf fillers - such books are written to sell, and whilst the messaging is simple and accessible, the philosophy is often vague, if not actually questionable. I am directed to core texts and primary documents – far tougher reads, but invariably honed by critical peer appraisal.

As a Doctor of Philosophy neighbour advised me: "Don't read commentaries on Lacan, you'll never understand them. Read Lacan, and then write out what you got from it, then you'll understand it."

Thomas
 
Thanks Thomas!

If you ever want to share that reading list...:) I'm heading in a similar direction, I think. I think it's important to understand postmodernism because so much of our reality is collaged that way, but I'm, like you I think, really looking for the escape hatch.

Chris
 
Seek and ye shall find, ask and it shall be given to you, knock and the door shall be opened. I think you will find what you are looking for if you keep at it Chris...

v/r

Joshua

Well, I've got a pretty good idea where NOT to look now!

I appreciate the support Joshua, thanks!

Chris
 
Chris...

Think of it this way. Now that we possess the theories and technical tools to not only discover who we are but what we are, what does that make us ?
Observers, deconstructors, constructors, interveners... clearly what we are doing now is altering "the Creation" once made for us to be planted in...such that predictable futures are now in doubt ? Reminds me of living some of the opinions reflected in the threads of Genesis...hmmmm ? Do we harmonize with nature...or continue to try to control it ?

Have fun Chris. I suggest also that you include in your list works on Chaos Theory and how complex systems interact and influence each others' evolution and outcomes. The first influential and pop book on all that was written in the 80's by James Gleick.

flow....:cool:
 
Kindest Regards, Flow!
Think of it this way. Now that we possess the theories and technical tools to not only discover who we are but what we are, what does that make us ?
Observers, deconstructors, constructors, interveners... clearly what we are doing now is altering "the Creation" once made for us to be planted in...such that predictable futures are now in doubt ? Reminds me of living some of the opinions reflected in the threads of Genesis...hmmmm ? Do we harmonize with nature...or continue to try to control it ?
But manipulation of nature is nothing new...certainly "we" have been manipulating our environment since the advent of agriculture, some 4-5000 years at this point. So there is little wonder the association with Genesis...that is precisely the boundary Genesis is referring to. G-d created a man to tend the Garden...this is the point when humanity stepped beyond merely being held to the mercy of nature and began to submit nature to "his" will. Manipulation if you prefer, but the point is, "harmonize with nature" is a loaded comment that means far more than it appears on the surface. Shall we return to the cave? That is, after all, a genuine "harmon(y) with nature." Else, the comment is facetious and contradictory...one cannot be a "little bit" pregnant. Harmony with nature demands a complete surrender of all technology. If we only surrender technologies to the point of the working of metal (iron, bronze and copper) and the wheel, we are still fooling ourselves. Even stone "tools" and fire are technologies...
 
Chris...

Think of it this way. Now that we possess the theories and technical tools to not only discover who we are but what we are, what does that make us ?
Observers, deconstructors, constructors, interveners... clearly what we are doing now is altering "the Creation" once made for us to be planted in...such that predictable futures are now in doubt ? Reminds me of living some of the opinions reflected in the threads of Genesis...hmmmm ? Do we harmonize with nature...or continue to try to control it ?

Have fun Chris. I suggest also that you include in your list works on Chaos Theory and how complex systems interact and influence each others' evolution and outcomes. The first influential and pop book on all that was written in the 80's by James Gleick.

flow....:cool:

Chaos theory. That's been on my master list for a while. I just haven't gotten to the appropriate entry point, which is to say that I'm constantly buffering since I'm very nearly saturated with information all the time, and so I have a limited capacity to add new stuff, and I just haven't gotten to it yet.

I dunno, Flow... It's the old question of analog versus digital. Particle or wave. Structure or flow. What is the structure of flow, Flow?:p I see this question peeking it's horny head out from underneath all of the depth discussions we have here.

Chris
 
Kindest Regards, Flow!

But manipulation of nature is nothing new...certainly "we" have been manipulating our environment since the advent of agriculture, some 4-5000 years at this point. So there is little wonder the association with Genesis...that is precisely the boundary Genesis is referring to. G-d created a man to tend the Garden...this is the point when humanity stepped beyond merely being held to the mercy of nature and began to submit nature to "his" will. Manipulation if you prefer, but the point is, "harmonize with nature" is a loaded comment that means far more than it appears on the surface. Shall we return to the cave? That is, after all, a genuine "harmon(y) with nature." Else, the comment is facetious and contradictory...one cannot be a "little bit" pregnant. Harmony with nature demands a complete surrender of all technology. If we only surrender technologies to the point of the working of metal (iron, bronze and copper) and the wheel, we are still fooling ourselves. Even stone "tools" and fire are technologies...

In Genesis God commands humans to be fruitful and multiply, and take dominion of the earth. I'm fascinated by the idea of names and naming in the Torah, and its significance in the divinely ordained process of taking dominion of the earth. Esoterically, when one knows the name of something they have the ability to control it. Jesus now has a new name that only he knows. One of my areas of interest, in addition to quantum physics, post-modern "philosophy", geometry and musical structure, iconic archetecture, and other things that I think are important keys to understanding the crux of the biscuit, is linguistics and the structure and use of language. That's why I'm excited to read Ricoeur's ideas, because he's forging a way out of the mollases using, in part, linguistic analysis. Maybe that's not the right term, I'm not a scholar.

Anyway, nice talking to you!

Chris
 
I'm on a roll, let's see if I can get this out coherently:

Post-modern dilemma. This is how it seems to me. Information increases exponentially, and as the ability to communicate shrinks the world, it shrinks the amount of space within which all this information broadcasts. There is no lag, no latency, and all of the noise arrives at once, and constantly. It just gets noisier and noisier. One solution is to go universalist. Another solution is to strive for the conservative ideal of pristine origins. I don't believe that either of those approaches really works.

You can syncretise and go universal, but you lose all sense of specific origin. You can search for a pristine origin, but you lose all sense of immediate perspective. Plus, all mythos is now liquid, self-referential, and collaged beyond definition, so there's no way of back tracking up the flow chart. We're stuck in the fractal.

Chris
 
Kindest Regards, China Cat!
I'm on a roll, let's see if I can get this out coherently:

Post-modern dilemma. This is how it seems to me. Information increases exponentially, and as the ability to communicate shrinks the world, it shrinks the amount of space within which all this information broadcasts. There is no lag, no latency, and all of the noise arrives at once, and constantly. It just gets noisier and noisier. One solution is to go universalist. Another solution is to strive for the conservative ideal of pristine origins. I don't believe that either of those approaches really works.

You can syncretise and go universal, but you lose all sense of specific origin. You can search for a pristine origin, but you lose all sense of immediate perspective. Plus, all mythos is now liquid, self-referential, and collaged beyond definition, so there's no way of back tracking up the flow chart. We're stuck in the fractal.

Chris
How very profound! I am impressed, Chris. :)
 
Hi Chris –

Bang on the money. I was told on my course that the 'real' issue for Catholic theology today is to resolve the post-modern dilemma ... not simply deny philosophy, but before we embrace it, we must examine its axioms and presuppositions, which is what Ricoeur and others have been doing, and why the 'real' dialogue is there.

I'll happily share my reading lists and comments - besides post-modernism there is quantum theory, so nothing too taxing ...

Thomas
 
Hi Juan...It's not just technology per se...(I agree it's always been there to a degree)...these days it's the sheer levels of control that it can deliver and the intense penetration into our realities that I am concerned about. It's a matter of degree and not only it's existence. When technology becomes a dominant force and is directed by our will and not according to nature's priorities, then stuff'll happen/ is happening more often and more decisively.

Chris...proceed to chaos theory and don't look back.

flow....:cool:
 
Kindest Regards, Flow!
Hi Juan...It's not just technology per se...(I agree it's always been there to a degree)...these days it's the sheer levels of control that it can deliver and the intense penetration into our realities that I am concerned about. *It's a matter of degree* and not only it's existence. When technology becomes a dominant force and is directed by our will and not according to nature's priorities, then stuff'll happen/ is happening more often and more decisively.
I can understand your point, and to a large extent agree...and perhaps my grievance is merely semantic, although from my vantage I don't think so...but to call "a matter of degree" by the name "harmony with nature" seems to me quite misleading...technology is *specifically* what distinguishes humans materially from all other animals. No other animal uses fire, and no other animal uses tools in anything close to the level of sophistication required even to make a simple bladed tool. So...from my vantage either A: technology as a whole is not natural and harmonious with the balance of nature; or else B: technology as a whole is very natural and harmonious with the balance of nature (as a portion of the evolutionary development of humanity). Either way, but a middle ground by the name "harmony with nature" is...not accurate. It is a term that assuages guilt by misleading with false promise, and that is the basis of my grievance. I promise, I am not mincing words for the mere sake of mincing words, there is a philosophical memetic stake in this matter of how it affects the outlook of those who hold the "harmony with nature" view.

I take exception, in your case I do so politely, to those whose view of nature is some antiseptic, white-washed, Norman Rockwell, "manicured forests" when the reality is so very, very different. Harmony with nature, in absolute truth, means red of tooth and claw, a fact usually overlooked in the attempt to dispense with personal accountability. We are only too happy to point to the magnificent waterfalls...and turn our eyes away from the parasitic wasp that lays eggs on the paralyzed spider who waits, consciously, for the egg to hatch and consume it alive. BOTH of these are "harmony with nature."

Do I disparage over how nature is being raped, pillaged and plundered in a wholesale manner? CERTAINLY!!! I have doubts and concerns over how fast the world is changing, not just materially but psychologically and spiritually as well. But I refuse to console myself with a, from my vantage, delusion. If I am to be responsible, then I must see things as they are; not as I imagine them to be, or decorate them as I wish them to be, in some vain effort to appease my guilt over my part in the equation.

This has come out sounding far more terse than it is intended. I assure, there is no offense intended or taken. This is merely my two cents exploring but one minor "fractal" of this overall discussion. It just happens to be the "fractal" I have lived in for many, many years at this point.
 
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Yes Juan...nature is viscious...but mostly on a FTF basis. Our misues of advanced technologies, such as the introduction of toxins into the environment to "improve" agricultural yields of corn to make more fuel, instead of food, to burn in autos and trucks all just has ceased to make much sense to me. There is a middle ground as you say, but it's now dominated by humanity and it's devices.

flow....:cool:
 
Kindest Regards, Flow!

Thank you for your response.
Our misues of advanced technologies, such as the introduction of toxins into the environment to "improve" agricultural yields of corn to make more fuel, instead of food, to burn in autos and trucks all just has ceased to make much sense to me. There is a middle ground as you say, but it's now dominated by humanity and it's devices.
I'm struggling with understanding here...I see several levels of philosophical thought trying to overwrite each other.

I see a lament over chemical application of fertilizer to improve yields for fuel, but not for consumption as food? I mean, that was the foundation behind Rachel Carson's work, stopping the use of DDT, period.

I see a lament that an alternative fuel is being developed to power the very vehicles our society has come to rely on. Did you know that the legal weight limit on a tractor-trailor combo in the US is 80,000 pounds, in Canada it is 100,000. Subtract approximately 35,000 pounds for the fueled weight of the vehicles, and you end up with somewhere in the neighborhood of 45,000 pounds of consumer goods per vehicle combo. Multiply that by how many hundreds of thousands of trucks moving everything from toilet paper to luxury yachts and everything in between, including the most recent copy of Playboy. Now, when the oil runs out, how do we move these goods in this quantity to feed and house and clothe the masses?

I see a lament that humanity has even bothered to develop technology, regardless of what that technology is, because it is contrary to "nature." Quite possibly, it is the end result of natural selection, the brainiacs developed technologies that put them into power and domination over the balance of nature. Maybe one day we will become extinct "overnight" like the dinosaurs, maybe not. In the meantime, we've got to deal with what it is before us.

I see a lament that humans are not being good stewards with what has been entrusted to them by an Almighty Creator, and that I can agree with. I would add the caveat though, that it is the few who mess things up for the many. It is the lazy, who dump the barrel of toxic waste in the ditch behind the house because they can't be bothered with taking it to a safe place to be properly dealt with. It is the greedy who do the same on a wholesale level. It is the cigarette smoker who flicks "his" filtered cigarette out the window of his car on the highway and leaves a little bundle of fiberglass to enter the environment, fiberglass that doesn't break down, and multiplied by countless millions of equally idiotic actions, adds up to a considerable amount of environmental pollution. On top of the potential for starting a wildfire!

I see fingers pointing here and there, and everywhere but self. And self is included, in the entire picture. Will self impact the environment? Yes, it is impossible not to. But what level of impact, and is that impact something that can be sustained and recovered from?

I see a lament over conditions largely beyond our control, with conflicting interests that make no sense when placed in a proper perspective.

Forget for a moment all of the ails of the industrial world...how would you do things differently? Let's keep it simple...how would you get the billions of tons of produce from the field to the market to feed the 300 million people everyday, without trucks, trains or fuel? Are you going to carry 45,000 pounds of groceries on a bycycle?
 
Forget for a moment all of the ails of the industrial world...how would you do things differently? Let's keep it simple...how would you get the billions of tons of produce from the field to the market to feed the 300 million people everyday, without trucks, trains or fuel? Are you going to carry 45,000 pounds of groceries on a bycycle?
Namaste 1-3,

As I see it the issue with ethanol is it is more expensive and less efficient than gasoline no matter how much fertilizer you use. If I get less gas milage and it costs me more (all of it today is subsidized)... I say let the farmers grow food.

The other thing that is/should be changing is the amount of shipping required. With the net and telecommuting more of us will be able to move back out of the cities and be buying local..

But the problem of transportation still persists I agree. Ethanol just isn't a viable replacement to fossil fuels...gotta find an actual solution. Just fax me an artichoke if you please.
 
Kindest Regards, Wil!
As I see it the issue with ethanol is it is more expensive and less efficient than gasoline no matter how much fertilizer you use. If I get less gas milage and it costs me more (all of it today is subsidized)... I say let the farmers grow food.
Oh, indeed! Yet, hydrogen is no better. It takes more energy to make than can be recouped. Not to mention, it is far more volatile than fossil fuels. (Hindenberg, anybody?) And the roads would be constantly wet from the exhaust. Hmmm, rainy weather driving even when the sun is out, at least at rush hour in the megalopolises.

The other thing that is/should be changing is the amount of shipping required. With the net and telecommuting more of us will be able to move back out of the cities and be buying local..
You mean like how computers were supposed to usher in the paperless society? Credit cards were supposed to usher in the cashless society? Buying local sounds good, but what about people who want Beluga Caviar who don't live in Russia? Or how about Chilean grapes when they are out of season in the northern hemisphere? I suppose people could be forced to do without, but as long as some people have disposable incomes, and are looked to and admired as trendsetters, and have "gypsy" blood and tend to travel, and have what could arguably be described as "good taste," and other people have a "keep up with the Jones' attitude...in other words, through a combination of human foibles and tendencies, I don't see it happening. Not among the elite. And there will always be the elite. And not while people have a tendency to roam and explore.

But the problem of transportation still persists I agree. Ethanol just isn't a viable replacement to fossil fuels...gotta find an actual solution. Just fax me an artichoke if you please.
LOL!!! Beam me up Scotty! Maybe a teleporter, except ooops, that probably takes even more energy still!
 
hydrogen is no better. It takes more energy to make than can be recouped. Not to mention, it is far more volatile than fossil fuels. (Hindenberg, anybody?)
I've wondered what would happen if we all had hydrogen fuel cell cars...especially at tunnels...

Interestingly enough hyrdogen has now been exonerated on the Hindenburg, the paint/sealant on the canvas was not only flamable but conductive and exacerbated electrical static charges.. I can't remember the actual ingredients in the paint, but that it was said they were also used in bomb manufacture...
 
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