Council axes Christian prayers

Zagreus said:
When God spoke the Kosmos into existence, do you suppose it was in Hebrew, Greek, Latin or Aramaic? All four of these constitute a significant part of Christian tradition and liturgy.
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Hardly. I suspect it was in the language of God...how trite to imply a human language on the eternal...

if this is a chess game, I still have my Rooks and queen...;)
 
Quahom1 said:
..how trite to imply a human language on the eternal...if this is a chess game, I still have my Rooks and queen...;)
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2 funny, after just leaving the homosexual thread...I notice queen is not capitalized, so it can't be the royal Queen...so if this is a chess game you are utilzing two methods to defraud by cheating or swindling and a transvestite? Words are such fun....in any language.:D

luv u q
 
wil said:
2 funny, after just leaving the homosexual thread...I notice queen is not capitalized, so it can't be the royal Queen...so if this is a chess game you are utilzing two methods to defraud by cheating or swindling and a transvestite? Words are such fun....in any language.:D

luv u q
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InLove said this would happen...I never dreamed it would be by you.
 
Quahom1 said:
if this is a chess game, I still have my Rooks and queen...;)
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Chess ... I can dig the comparison.

Quahom1 said:
I suspect it was in the language of God...how trite to imply a human language on the eternal...
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My point entirely, yet that's what the argument is about from the very beginning.

If the Christian Faith is "under fire" of late, which you feel this article illustrates, Quahom1, then perhaps it would be more profitable to speculate as to WHY?

~~~~~

An opportunity somewhere at CR, for Christians to speak out about why they feel they are "under fire," might be of use. I recommend Liberal Christianity, since there can be a more open approach on those forums.

At any rate, this is a topic that I think is worth discussing, because a broader range of opinions would be voiced, and the contributions offered have the potential to run the whole gamut when it comes to Christian tradition, beliefs and faith. People who have a Christian background, as from childhood, or even those who are decidedly agnostic, can also contribute without worrying about going against the grain.

If *this* is the proper forum for such discussion, maybe someone will start a thread that directly addresses this question of "faith under fire" (relevant to Christianity here) ... and I mean from a macro level, even if that is on a national level, since there may well be differences between UK and US experiences. This might even be part of the discussion!

Since so many articles highlighting this issue originate from Blaznfattyz, I wonder if Blazn might contribute? Speaking of Blazn, what are your opinions on these matters, these various articles which you are bringing to light, and this larger issue which Joshua has identified as "faith under fire?" What does it signify to you, and is now any different than say, 20 years ago - or 200?

Pax, and Pax Cultura,

~Zagreus
 
Zagreus said:
Chess ... I can dig the comparison.

My point entirely, yet that's what the argument is about from the very beginning.

If the Christian Faith is "under fire" of late, which you feel this article illustrates, Quahom1, then perhaps it would be more profitable to speculate as to WHY?

~~~~~

An opportunity somewhere at CR, for Christians to speak out about why they feel they are "under fire," might be of use. I recommend Liberal Christianity, since there can be a more open approach on those forums.

At any rate, this is a topic that I think is worth discussing, because a broader range of opinions would be voiced, and the contributions offered have the potential to run the whole gamut when it comes to Christian tradition, beliefs and faith. People who have a Christian background, as from childhood, or even those who are decidedly agnostic, can also contribute without worrying about going against the grain.

If *this* is the proper forum for such discussion, maybe someone will start a thread that directly addresses this question of "faith under fire" (relevant to Christianity here) ... and I mean from a macro level, even if that is on a national level, since there may well be differences between UK and US experiences. This might even be part of the discussion!

Since so many articles highlighting this issue originate from Blaznfattyz, I wonder if Blazn might contribute? Speaking of Blazn, what are your opinions on these matters, these various articles which you are bringing to light, and this larger issue which Joshua has identified as "faith under fire?" What does it signify to you, and is now any different than say, 20 years ago - or 200?

Pax, and Pax Cultura,

~Zagreus
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You can dish it out, but can't take a little of your own sarcasm? Or is it you just don't like dealing with others that might have a tad bit of the intelligence you posses, enough to challenge you to serious debate? Ou petetre Je le parle dans les longues faux, par vous? Mais non, Ili nyet. Shto Yazikium a vwiy horosho?

You forget, once you submit an original piece, it is e-mailed.
Zag orginally wrote:

"Chess ... I can dig the comparison. Problem is, there is no room on this board for a philosophical argument. Here, the terms, or rules, are all your own. You want the last word (;)), and you'll get it.

Besides, I've already tossed in my 2 cents."

"An opportunity somewhere at CR, for Christians to speak out about why they feel they are "under fire," might be of use. I recommend Liberal Christianity, since there can be a more open approach on those forums."

Here is where one is either convinced, convinces or concedes. Because here is where the rubber meets the road. This is THE christian forum. And the "philosophers' here are pretty well versed in their beliefs. They aren't exactly stupid sheep either. So roll up your sleeves and get down to work, or throw in the towel. But don't go blaming others for standing up for what they believe, simply because you don't believe the same thing and changing their minds might take a little sweat...that's the easy way out.


pax, et pax cultura Zag.

v/r

Joshua
 
Totnes? lol... Totnes? That isn't too far from me... I am quite suprised it would be a small place here in Devon, I don't agree with it, but could see why it would be more of the "wanted thing" in more northern areas say London... But down here.... Specially where I live... Things like Muslim or Islam or whatever faiths... Are not here.
 
17th Angel said:
Totnes? lol... Totnes? That isn't too far from me... I am quite suprised it would be a small place here in Devon, I don't agree with it, but could see why it would be more of the "wanted thing" in more northern areas say London... But down here.... Specially where I live... Things like Muslim or Islam or whatever faiths... Are not here.
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As I said, I think the mayor erred...:rolleyes:
 
Zagreus said:
Since so many articles highlighting this issue originate from Blaznfattyz, I wonder if Blazn might contribute? Speaking of Blazn, what are your opinions on these matters, these various articles which you are bringing to light, and this larger issue which Joshua has identified as "faith under fire?" ~Zagreus
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as far as traditions are concerned, even if they have religious overtones, it should be respected and left alone for as long as possible and as much as possible (ill explain in next paragraphs). it is a reminder of how the country has strong christian morals and that is associated with the meetings and prayers.

fast-forward 600 years, more immigrants, more alternative lifestyles, more religions, more exposure to worldly philosophies, etc., and now the council has people that are not christian so the tradition of the Lord's prayer is being axed. This is not a matter of ignoring what you might see or read, it is a matter of not being able to ignore what is being said (earplugs anyone?) and you being asked to take part. and i see that as the big difference, where a change might be good in this case where the prayers are still observed to hold tradition (those that pray to god in jesus' name still do so, and those that have a moment of silence to respect tradition, or to contemplate ethics and morals, or whatever), and where the time of prayer holds tradition, the time of reflection or silence helps respect those of other faiths.

the ten commandments on a wall, well that is something that can be seen as not entirely religious but also as a concept of moral law, a symbol for man to achieve perfection of law and civility. those that are christian see god's law given to moses, those that are not christian can see a symbol and concept of law that man follows to create civilization, society, and justice. a statue of the 10 commandments does not ask anyone to act, or worship by way of another man's religion, but can be merely a symbol of a goal to be a achieved.

the pledge of allegiance, this is a traditional song that should not be changed, because it was already penned, we should not change the word's of something we did not write. so we either say it exactly as it is, or we substitute it with a different song altogether if the need ever arises, so it unifies the american people, because that is the whole reason behind it.

the nature of christianity as it moves forward thru the holy spirit is going to find itself at odds with other faiths and other lifestyles, because the holy spirit is what resists the evil and things that deny christ in the world. people do not like resistance to what they want. while there is an agenda to take christianity out of everything, it should come as no surprise as the bible says that in the end times people will be offended very easily and call bad things good, and good things bad.

the united states and england being a melting pot of people, we have to learn to recognize this, and not be afraid of change (and it's happening), and at the same time, not lose tradition. there is a middle ground that respects both sides. those that want to pray to god before meetings, pray to god, and those that do not believe in god or a different god, do accordingly. so it boils down to two kinds of laws. there is man's set of laws that tries its best to be equal and open to all. and there is god's law written on our hearts that is spiritual and we acknowledge god in that manner- spiritually and personally. we should respect diversity, we should respect tradition, we should respect religion, we should respect laws, and we should respect each other.
 
BlaznFattyz said:
(a)as far as traditions are concerned, even if they have religious overtones, it should be respected and left alone for as long as possible and as much as possible

(b)the pledge of allegiance, this is a traditional song that should not be changed, because it was already penned, we should not change the word's of something we did not write. so we either say it exactly as it is, or we substitute it with a different song altogether if the need ever arises, so it unifies the american people, because that is the whole reason behind it.

(c)we should respect diversity, we should respect tradition, we should respect religion, we should respect laws, and we should respect each other.
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a) The first thought would leave odes and traditions of slavery in place...

b) The pledge has been altered thrice...once to ADD 'under G-d' and once to CHANGE our salute from an outstretched palm to the flag to hand over our heart...original modifications were made from the socialist pledge for all nations...

c) In respecting each other we change and modify as we grow...as our pledge has...
 
wil said:
a) The first thought would leave odes and traditions of slavery in place...

b) The pledge has been altered thrice...once to ADD 'under G-d' and once to CHANGE our salute from an outstretched palm to the flag to hand over our heart...original modifications were made from the socialist pledge for all nations...

c) In respecting each other we change and modify as we grow...as our pledge has...
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a) and b) are ideals, c) i think betters both with reality.
 
wil said:
a)
The first thought would leave odes and traditions of slavery in place...
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Only for those who believe in enslaving another. (never crossed my mind until you mentioned it).

b) The pledge has been altered thrice...once to ADD 'under G-d' and once to CHANGE our salute from an outstretched palm to the flag to hand over our heart...original modifications were made from the socialist pledge for all nations...
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Yep, that is today's world. Oh and military do not hit heart with palm fist then thrust out in a Heil (or Hail). We touch the edge of our visor, or if wearing a garrison cap, touch our brow with a hand bent downward, then smartly lower our arm. It is an action of respect, not one of patronage. The forefathers were very smart men...they saw you coming for miles and years.

c) In respecting each other we change and modify as we grow...as our pledge has...
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"
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed, by their Creator, with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness.
That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles, and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.


Yours is not the same truths as mine.
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Quahom1 said:
You can dish it out, but can't take a little of your own sarcasm? Or is it you just don't like dealing with others that might have a tad bit of the intelligence you posses, enough to challenge you to serious debate?
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Alright, Quahom1, if you press me on this matter, then I will speak my mind politely, but directly. See below.

Quahom1 said:
You forget, once you submit an original piece, it is e-mailed.
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Yes, and you had a choice. You could have respected that I chose to alter my post. You could have given me the benefit of the doubt, and assumed that I had a good reason. You clearly *knew* that I made some changes before you posted in response. So if you toss down the glove, please don't come back with any of this "I'm going to intervene as a moderator to end this argument" crap, just because you don't happen to agree. All too often, we've seen threads closed when there's a little heat in the kitchen. Don't worry, if the roof's on fire, I'll find the Exit signs. ;)

If I lose this argument, then the only thing I have to concede is that you have a different *opinion* than mine. Let's be clear on that. Christian majority does not necessarily equal Truth in my book, nor does the mob rules mentality sway me. I couldn't care less about a 600 year old tradition, if that tradition can be preserved in Spirit, yet adapted for a greater good (religions change as people grow). Similarly, if the majority in Totnes happened to be Buddhists, and there were some Christians or Jews who wished for accomodation in the opening Invocation/Prayer, then I wouldn't pitch this royal fit as you are ... about 2 minutes here, 2 minutes there, time for these buggers over here, yadda yadda. Before the thing is all over, you'll have half an hour on the agenda for opening ceremonies, and precious little time left for - what was this again, a *town council meeting*??? :rolleyes:

Quahom1 said:
Here is where one is either convinced, convinces or concedes. Because here is where the rubber meets the road. This is THE christian forum. And the "philosophers' here are pretty well versed in their beliefs. They aren't exactly stupid sheep either. So roll up your sleeves and get down to work, or throw in the towel. But don't go blaming others for standing up for what they believe, simply because you don't believe the same thing and changing their minds might take a little sweat...that's the easy way out.
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Okay, then if it's about convincing, being convinced or conceding, then I'll make it easy for you. I'll concede that YOU believe this mayor is in error. You and I differ on this one, and some will fall on either side of the issue, but I've already stated that I happen to think the tradition is a good one ... while I also believe that nothing will be lost by continuing it in the silence of the heart.

To me, there is no difference within the heart, when we pray to Allah, Christ, Krishna, Buddha, or what-have-you. Even the agnostic may have a way of centering, aligning, or just a few deep breaths to become calm and clear-headed. Now folks here on Christianity may believe otherwise, but then, that's not really what's up for debate. Still, the belief that "In Jesus' name" is somehow an important part of this ceremony *definitely* informs the Christian approach (for many people), so I think it would be helpful to clarify that I find prayer/meditation/silence every bit as helpful, so long as the aspiration is pure, the heart and mind sincere.

This is my BELIEF. I have utmost Faith that I am correct. And if I cannot convince you, then we'll just have to let that one go, since I don't care one way or the other whether we agree. Clearly, if we agreed on this point, you'd be much more inclined to agree with me - that the Totnes Mayor's move was NOT a "PC" decision, but one that considers the greatest good for the greatest number, while seeking to also honor the beliefs of each & every *individual* present at the meetings - AND to not lose the Christian heritage and tradition altogether.

That's all I've got for the moment, until the coffee hits my brain. I did want to say one more thing though. Blazn, thanks for your response, and elaboration! This gives me much more to think about, and I see that there's already been good some discussion. I'm a bit lost with all the saluting and so on, but there is one point that strikes me with a definite resonance.

I'm a believer in the power of mantrams - whether chanted, intoned, or even just spoken aloud. These can be Hindu, many thousands of years old, or they may be in Aramaic, as Jesus responded when asked how to pray, giving the Lord's Prayer or Our Father. Either way, there is the power of Sound present (shabda), and in a couple of posts Quahom1 and I were mentioning the Word (with multiple entendres) vs. Silence.

I think that in changing the flow or composition of a mantram, prayer, or something like the Christian Liturgy, definite changes come about. Usually, the changes are so profound that one tries to hold off for as long as possible, unless there are overriding concerns which show us in a greater light ... that the change is best (as I think is clear at Totnes).

The Christmas Eve service at my parents' church is more or less the same each year, and I've come to know what to expect so well, that if things were altered more than slightly, I'm sure I'd wonder why - and perhaps question the change just because of *what I'm used to*.

Another example of the power of sound comes in a particular mantram which many believe was given to us (in the 1940s) by the same Christ Who taught us how to pray 2000 years ago. It is a very similar set of verses, with a cadence, and a clarity of meaning, as well a definite purpose behind it, even a power that I think is undeniable for anyone who uses it regularly. It is very similar to what I've always felt while saying the Lord's Prayer, whether aloud or silently.

Some have updated this Invocation in recent years to be *politically correct*, by making language non-sexist, as well as by substituting "Coming One" for the word "Christ." The intent behind the words is surely what is of greatest import, but to say that the words themselves - whether spoken aloud or silently - do not have power, would be in error. When all is said and done, using the Invocation is what matters, imo, and to become lost in a dispute over political correctness is just the picking of nits, needlessly. So too, this problem at Totnes.

But I'll say again: the problem of (is the) Christian Faith under fire (?) - which is a larger issue - seems like it is of much more importance, and worthy of its own thread.

~Zagreus
 
There is nothing to win or lose. The "concession" is that we have differing opinions. My problem is the implication that my opinion is wrong, or quaint, or not with the times.

If you read other's posts (where some were closed), you might see that being bowled over isn't appreciated, so I get edgy sometimes (for the forum's sake).

And I happen to think just because something is deemed politically correct, doesn't make it right either.

v/r

Joshua
 
I actually pull back my opinion... I know I said it was wrong to remove it but I believe it was right to remove it, now I have had time to dwell on it.... lol a lot of time eh...

I think indeed for christians it is good.... But you can do it in your own time..... Not only that, I wouldn't want to be apart of this group prayer.... I was thinking more at muslims and jews and whatever... Not even considering those that do not even have a diety they call master...... I believe I'd be uncomfortable in that situation and If that is my job and work place I do not deserve to be placed into that situation.... It is wrong.

*nods*
 
don't know how many of u have been to Totnes, but its a pretty introverted place, and oh so white! I spent an hour or two in Totnes just standing on the main street, looking for some ethnic diversity, and there was none, not one black, yellow or red face did I see, although I did manage to find one Big Issue seller...

I am glad that they have stopped the council saying xtian prayers- after all, look at the state of american politics- dya really want a gang of uptight xtians running the show? what happens then to the buddhists, and the muslims? Hardly inclusive, is it, to open business with prayers directed to just the one God..?

we're english, not american! if it wasn't for the english rejecting the traditions of olde then there wouldn't be any proddies or Quakers...

as for the Daily Mail- in england we're savvy enough to know what papers favour what political parties, and the Daily Mail is not known for it's objective reportage... rather, the Daily Mail is read by posh whiteys with a conservative bent, and an over large chip...

I followed the link, and could not find the article, but did find a lovely piece on how much the orphan Kosovan children cost "us"... perfect example of objective reporting, isnt it?

yes, all animals are created equal, but as orwell wrote in animal farm- some are more equal than others...

should that be the case in a council chamber?
 
That is why I said it wasn't right to remove the prayer.... But I forgot about people like myself who are not wanting to participate in such acts..... I live not so far from Totnes... Indeed... Quite different than scouser land eh Francis?
 
oh yes, it's great ere... diversity rules (on paper at least)

We have a big somali community, yet if ur somali, try getting a job!
 
A council is the agency of local government, a place of work and as such, a secular establishment. It is not a religious establishment and so religious practices in it as part of its routine are not appropriate. In the past when every councillor would probably have described themselves as a Christian, this fact would not have been an issue but in 2007 in a country of varied cultures and beliefs, its inappropriateness is now glaring. If all the councillors were Muslims would they want to be saying Christian prayers? The plain fact is, it is not appropriate in a secular place of work, irrespective of the "mix" of councillors. It is also giving out the wrong message to maintain a religious element that is not applicable to all potential councillors. It is giving a non-verbal cue of its non-inclusivity (i.e. if you’re not comfortable with taking part in, or ignoring Christian prayers, then this isn’t the place for you). Christian prayers belong in a Christian church the same as Sikh prayers belong in a Sikh temple. And leave the councillors to sorting out our rubbish collections.

s.
 
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