You can dish it out, but can't take a little of your own sarcasm? Or is it you just don't like dealing with others that might have a tad bit of the intelligence you posses, enough to challenge you to serious debate?
Alright, Quahom1, if you press me on this matter, then I will speak my mind politely, but directly.
See below.
Quahom1 said:
You forget, once you submit an original piece, it is e-mailed.
Yes, and you had a choice. You could have respected that I
chose to alter my post. You could have given me the benefit of the doubt, and assumed that I had a good reason. You clearly *knew* that I made some changes before you posted in response. So if you toss down the glove, please don't come back with any of this "I'm going to intervene as a moderator to end this argument" crap, just because you don't happen to agree. All too often, we've seen threads closed when there's a little heat in the kitchen. Don't worry, if the roof's on fire, I'll find the Exit signs.
If I lose this argument, then the only thing I have to concede is that you have a different *opinion* than mine. Let's be clear on that. Christian majority does not necessarily equal Truth in my book, nor does the mob rules mentality sway me. I couldn't care less about a 600 year old tradition, if that tradition can be preserved in Spirit, yet adapted for a greater good (religions change as people grow). Similarly, if the majority in Totnes happened to be Buddhists, and there were some Christians or Jews who wished for accomodation in the opening Invocation/Prayer, then I wouldn't pitch this royal fit as you are ... about 2 minutes here, 2 minutes there, time for these buggers over here, yadda yadda. Before the thing is all over, you'll have half an hour on the agenda for
opening ceremonies, and precious little time left for - what was this again, a *town council meeting*???
Quahom1 said:
Here is where one is either convinced, convinces or concedes. Because here is where the rubber meets the road. This is THE christian forum. And the "philosophers' here are pretty well versed in their beliefs. They aren't exactly stupid sheep either. So roll up your sleeves and get down to work, or throw in the towel. But don't go blaming others for standing up for what they believe, simply because you don't believe the same thing and changing their minds might take a little sweat...that's the easy way out.
Okay, then if it's about convincing, being convinced or conceding, then I'll make it easy for you. I'll concede that YOU believe this mayor is in error. You and I differ on this one, and some will fall on either side of the issue, but I've already stated that I happen to think the tradition is a good one ... while I also believe that nothing will be lost by continuing it in the silence of the heart.
To me, there is
no difference within the heart, when we pray to Allah, Christ, Krishna, Buddha, or what-have-you. Even the agnostic may have a way of centering, aligning, or just a few deep breaths to become calm and clear-headed. Now folks here on Christianity may believe otherwise, but then, that's not really what's up for debate. Still, the belief that
"In Jesus' name" is somehow an important part of this ceremony *definitely* informs the Christian approach (for many people), so I think it would be helpful to clarify that I find prayer/meditation/silence every bit as helpful, so long as the aspiration is pure, the heart and mind sincere.
This is my BELIEF. I have utmost Faith that I am correct. And if I cannot convince you, then we'll just have to let that one go, since I don't care one way or the other whether we agree. Clearly, if we agreed on this point, you'd be much more inclined to agree with me - that the Totnes Mayor's move was NOT a "PC" decision, but one that considers the greatest good for the greatest number, while seeking to also honor the beliefs of each & every *individual* present at the meetings - AND to not lose the Christian heritage and tradition altogether.
That's all I've got for the moment, until the coffee hits my brain. I did want to say one more thing though. Blazn, thanks for your response, and elaboration! This gives me much more to think about, and I see that there's already been good some discussion. I'm a bit lost with all the saluting and so on, but there is one point that strikes me with a definite resonance.
I'm a believer in the power of mantrams - whether chanted, intoned, or even just spoken aloud. These can be Hindu, many thousands of years old, or they may be in Aramaic, as Jesus responded when asked how to pray, giving the
Lord's Prayer or
Our Father. Either way, there is the power of Sound present (shabda), and in a couple of posts Quahom1 and I were mentioning the Word (with multiple entendres) vs. Silence.
I think that in changing the flow or composition of a mantram, prayer, or something like the Christian Liturgy, definite changes come about. Usually, the changes are so profound that one tries to hold off for as long as possible, unless there are overriding concerns which show us in a greater light ... that the change is best (as I think is clear at Totnes).
The Christmas Eve service at my parents' church is more or less the same each year, and I've come to know what to expect so well, that if things were altered more than slightly, I'm sure I'd wonder why - and perhaps question the change just because of *what I'm used to*.
Another example of the power of sound comes in a particular mantram which many believe was given to us (in the 1940s) by the same Christ Who taught us how to pray 2000 years ago. It is a very similar set of verses, with a cadence, and a clarity of meaning, as well a definite purpose behind it, even a power that I think is undeniable for anyone who uses it regularly. It is very similar to what I've always felt while saying the Lord's Prayer, whether aloud or silently.
Some have updated this Invocation in recent years to be *politically correct*, by making language non-sexist, as well as by substituting "Coming One" for the word "Christ." The intent behind the words is surely what is of greatest import, but to say that the words themselves - whether spoken aloud or silently - do not have power, would be in error. When all is said and done, using the Invocation is what matters, imo, and to become lost in a dispute over political correctness is just the picking of nits, needlessly. So too, this problem at Totnes.
But I'll say again: the problem of (is the)
Christian Faith under fire (?) - which is a larger issue - seems like it is of much more importance, and worthy of its own thread.
~Zagreus