bananabrain
awkward squadnik
here's a good place to start:
Tzadikim Nistarim - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
b'shalom
bananabrain
Tzadikim Nistarim - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
b'shalom
bananabrain
Torah-observant Christian?
- Thread starter Prober
- Start date
A
andersbra84
Guest
Quote: "Jezus being a Jew"
My reply:A historically correct position is to distinguish between the historical Ribi Yehoshua (the Messiah) and the antithesis the Christian Jezus.
To prove this I will provide the following information: A logical analysis (found at the website netzarim.co.il (this is the website of the only legitimate Netzarim-group)) (including the logical implications of the research by Ben-Gurion Univ. Prof. of Linguistics Elisha Qimron of Dead Sea Scroll 4Q MMT) of all extant source documents of “the gospel of Matthew” (which is a redaction of Netzarim Hebrew Matityahu (which was perfectly in harmony with Torah) and anti-Torah) and archeology proves that the historical Ribi Yehosuha ha-Mashiakh (the Messiah) from Nazareth and his talmidim (apprentice-students), called the Netzarim, taught and lived Torah all of their lives; and that Netzarim and Christianity were always antithetical.
Ribi Yehoshua from Nazareth’s authentic teachings reads:
[Torah, Oral Law & Hebrew Matityahu: Ribi Yehoshua Commanded Non-Selective Observance
The Netzarim Reconstruction of Hebrew Matityahu (NHM) 5:17-20 (later Hellenized to “the gospel of Matthew” (which is anti-Torah))]
[Glossaries found in the website below.]:
"I didn't come to subtract from the Torâh (“books of Moses”) of Moshëh or the Neviim (“prophets”), nor to add onto the Torah of Moshëh did I come. Because, rather, I came to [bring about the] complete [i.e., non-selective] observance of them in truth.
Should the heavens and ha-Aretz exchange places, still, not even one י or one of the Halâkhâh of the Torah of Moshehshall so much as exchange places; toward the time when it becomes that they are all being performed -- i.e., non- selectively -- in full.
For whoever deletes one [point of] the Halâkhâh of these mitzwot (directives or military-style orders) from Torah, or shall teach others such, [by those in] the Realm of the heavens he shall be called 'deleted.' And whoever ratifies and teaches them shall be called ' Ribi' in the Realm of the heavens.
For I tell you that unless your tzәdâqâh is over and above that of the [Hellenist-Roman Pseudo- Tzedoqim] Codifiers of halakhah, and of the Rabbinic- Perushim sect of Judaism, no way will you enter into the Realm of the heavens." (see NHM)
Quote from netzarim.co.il ; “History Museum”
The reconstruction is made using a scientific and logic methodology. One of the premises is that the historical Ribi Yehoshua was a Torah-observant Pharisee (why that premise is true is found in the above website, in which you also will find more information about why a reconstruction is needed).
The historical Ribi Yehoshua and his followers Netzarim observed Torah non-selectively. The above website proofs that the person who want to follow the historical Ribi Yehoshua must do likewise; and that that the person who wants to follow Ribi Yehoshua must become a talmid (apprentice student) of the Netzarim (see the above Netzarim-website).
His teachings were later redacted by Hellenists and the anti-Torah-redaction is found in “the gospel of Matthew”, which is anti-Torah. The Hellenists, including Paul, created the counterfeit image Jezus.
The notion that there are certain people whom only are required to keep seven mitzwot contradicts Torah and the teachings of Ribi Yehoshua. This article (in my blog) demonstrates it contradicts Torah: bloganders (dot) blogspot.com/2010/07/humankind-are-required-to-keep-more.html ; and this article demonstrates it contradicts formal logic based on science: bloganders.blogspot.com/2010/06/which-religion-is-correct-one.html
Anders Branderud
My reply:A historically correct position is to distinguish between the historical Ribi Yehoshua (the Messiah) and the antithesis the Christian Jezus.
To prove this I will provide the following information: A logical analysis (found at the website netzarim.co.il (this is the website of the only legitimate Netzarim-group)) (including the logical implications of the research by Ben-Gurion Univ. Prof. of Linguistics Elisha Qimron of Dead Sea Scroll 4Q MMT) of all extant source documents of “the gospel of Matthew” (which is a redaction of Netzarim Hebrew Matityahu (which was perfectly in harmony with Torah) and anti-Torah) and archeology proves that the historical Ribi Yehosuha ha-Mashiakh (the Messiah) from Nazareth and his talmidim (apprentice-students), called the Netzarim, taught and lived Torah all of their lives; and that Netzarim and Christianity were always antithetical.
Ribi Yehoshua from Nazareth’s authentic teachings reads:
[Torah, Oral Law & Hebrew Matityahu: Ribi Yehoshua Commanded Non-Selective Observance
The Netzarim Reconstruction of Hebrew Matityahu (NHM) 5:17-20 (later Hellenized to “the gospel of Matthew” (which is anti-Torah))]
[Glossaries found in the website below.]:
"I didn't come to subtract from the Torâh (“books of Moses”) of Moshëh or the Neviim (“prophets”), nor to add onto the Torah of Moshëh did I come. Because, rather, I came to [bring about the] complete [i.e., non-selective] observance of them in truth.
Should the heavens and ha-Aretz exchange places, still, not even one י or one of the Halâkhâh of the Torah of Moshehshall so much as exchange places; toward the time when it becomes that they are all being performed -- i.e., non- selectively -- in full.
For whoever deletes one [point of] the Halâkhâh of these mitzwot (directives or military-style orders) from Torah, or shall teach others such, [by those in] the Realm of the heavens he shall be called 'deleted.' And whoever ratifies and teaches them shall be called ' Ribi' in the Realm of the heavens.
For I tell you that unless your tzәdâqâh is over and above that of the [Hellenist-Roman Pseudo- Tzedoqim] Codifiers of halakhah, and of the Rabbinic- Perushim sect of Judaism, no way will you enter into the Realm of the heavens." (see NHM)
Quote from netzarim.co.il ; “History Museum”
The reconstruction is made using a scientific and logic methodology. One of the premises is that the historical Ribi Yehoshua was a Torah-observant Pharisee (why that premise is true is found in the above website, in which you also will find more information about why a reconstruction is needed).
The historical Ribi Yehoshua and his followers Netzarim observed Torah non-selectively. The above website proofs that the person who want to follow the historical Ribi Yehoshua must do likewise; and that that the person who wants to follow Ribi Yehoshua must become a talmid (apprentice student) of the Netzarim (see the above Netzarim-website).
His teachings were later redacted by Hellenists and the anti-Torah-redaction is found in “the gospel of Matthew”, which is anti-Torah. The Hellenists, including Paul, created the counterfeit image Jezus.
The notion that there are certain people whom only are required to keep seven mitzwot contradicts Torah and the teachings of Ribi Yehoshua. This article (in my blog) demonstrates it contradicts Torah: bloganders (dot) blogspot.com/2010/07/humankind-are-required-to-keep-more.html ; and this article demonstrates it contradicts formal logic based on science: bloganders.blogspot.com/2010/06/which-religion-is-correct-one.html
Anders Branderud
Dream
Well-Known Member
Hi, I just went back through this old thread from 2007, which activates many memories for me.
I appreciate, deeply, rejection of messianism by Israelis and Jews worldwide. It might be tempting to take advantage of messianic christians, but you have seen it as a horrible thing to do. Thank you! Thank you for not betraying principles for the sake of politics. Almost universally I've witnessed Jews refusing to manipulate people politically with religion and also excluding from themselves anyone who even appeared to soften. Rejection of JFJ is only one example. Thanks, my thanks. I 100% am glad that Jews in Israel are not accepting messianic rabbis as genuine, and I appreciate the very sad disconnect between messianic Jews and their non messianic family members. My heart goes out to you, but all of the trouble is worth it. I salute you for your loss and hope those on both sides of your family may be comforted.
As a lifelong protestant Christian of the charismata constellation I have during my short time known some American 'Messianic Jews' including a rabbi, have been to a wedding, have known people that have been missionaries to Jews in Israel. I've visited a messianic synogogue. I have run into a group of JFJ in a parking lot and asked them how they combined trinity with an absolutist monotheism. (They said I should read Michael Brown). I've talked with other messianic groups and have known Jewish friends (2 or 3) who have distanced themselves from their family by converting to messianism. I have pondered the reasons, motivations, explanations, roots, truths and fabrications of messianism. I grew up with a parent who watched the 700 club every day, have met Pat and known staff from there. I have had hands laid-on me at a Benny Hinn meeting, and spent vacation time at PTL as a kid. I have known non-trinitarian messianics, such as the Christadelphians. There are few people you will meet who have met such a wide variety of messianics or have seen messianism in array like I have, over a period of time and from various angles. This thread is just one of many, and every time Jews have shown themselves resolute against using faith for political gain.
As a lifelong day dreamer and idealist I have pondered what might be the depths of the Bible's meaning and have investigated 'The Jews' and 'The Christians' and messianics, too. I successfully examined the foundations of my own faith, and I risk exclusion from my own for the sake of honesty. My family worried about my salvation and career, both of which I put on the block for the sake of honesty. I hate suffering and seeing suffering, I hate cruelty, and I hate betrayal of principles. I've seen the pain that religious manipulation of others causes. I accept what others believe may be better than what I believe and allow them to believe, however to the best of my ability I have not deceived anyone or rubber stamped deceit. I don't always protest, because I need just as much to listen. I believe in live and let live without manipulation.
I appreciate, deeply, rejection of messianism by Israelis and Jews worldwide. It might be tempting to take advantage of messianic christians, but you have seen it as a horrible thing to do. Thank you! Thank you for not betraying principles for the sake of politics. Almost universally I've witnessed Jews refusing to manipulate people politically with religion and also excluding from themselves anyone who even appeared to soften. Rejection of JFJ is only one example. Thanks, my thanks. I 100% am glad that Jews in Israel are not accepting messianic rabbis as genuine, and I appreciate the very sad disconnect between messianic Jews and their non messianic family members. My heart goes out to you, but all of the trouble is worth it. I salute you for your loss and hope those on both sides of your family may be comforted.
As a lifelong protestant Christian of the charismata constellation I have during my short time known some American 'Messianic Jews' including a rabbi, have been to a wedding, have known people that have been missionaries to Jews in Israel. I've visited a messianic synogogue. I have run into a group of JFJ in a parking lot and asked them how they combined trinity with an absolutist monotheism. (They said I should read Michael Brown). I've talked with other messianic groups and have known Jewish friends (2 or 3) who have distanced themselves from their family by converting to messianism. I have pondered the reasons, motivations, explanations, roots, truths and fabrications of messianism. I grew up with a parent who watched the 700 club every day, have met Pat and known staff from there. I have had hands laid-on me at a Benny Hinn meeting, and spent vacation time at PTL as a kid. I have known non-trinitarian messianics, such as the Christadelphians. There are few people you will meet who have met such a wide variety of messianics or have seen messianism in array like I have, over a period of time and from various angles. This thread is just one of many, and every time Jews have shown themselves resolute against using faith for political gain.
As a lifelong day dreamer and idealist I have pondered what might be the depths of the Bible's meaning and have investigated 'The Jews' and 'The Christians' and messianics, too. I successfully examined the foundations of my own faith, and I risk exclusion from my own for the sake of honesty. My family worried about my salvation and career, both of which I put on the block for the sake of honesty. I hate suffering and seeing suffering, I hate cruelty, and I hate betrayal of principles. I've seen the pain that religious manipulation of others causes. I accept what others believe may be better than what I believe and allow them to believe, however to the best of my ability I have not deceived anyone or rubber stamped deceit. I don't always protest, because I need just as much to listen. I believe in live and let live without manipulation.
M
M E Brooks
Guest
I am a Torah Observant Christian. I'm not part of any group or denomination. My background is as follows:
1 - Became a Christian in 12/1989 and was baptized at a Southern Baptist Church in 01/1990 after I made public my redemption.
2- Attended New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary and Luther Rice Theological Seminary
3- Worked for 6 years as a Youth Pastor, Supply and Revival Preacher
I was taught that the Law was dead and the Jesus Christ nailed it to the Cross. But this isn't what is actually taught. Jesus stated that He came to fulfill the Law. He fulfilled the Passover, then Unleavened Bread. After that He fulfilled Pentecoast. Now we are in the Feasts of Weeks which is coming to an end. Later the Feasts of Trumpets, Day of Atonement, and Sukkot will be fulfilled. He also came to remove the Commandments of Men which had been added to His Law. The Hedge/Fence of the Law that the Rabbis added. (You can only walk so many steps on a sabbath, etc.)
Jesus restored His commands to their original Intent.
Example - Do not Murder >>> Do not Hate
Do not commit Adultery >>> Do not Lust
Love your Friends/Hate your enemy >>> Love your enemy
But what most do not understand is that Redemption is not provided for in the Law. There are no Sacrifices which provide for the Forgiveness of Willful Sin in the Law of God. That is why Jesus came. He came to be the Passover Lamb who would take away the sins of the World. Abraham prophesied this when taking Issac to the Mountain to be sacrificed - "God Himself will provide the Lamb"
We obey the Law because we Love our Father. We receive blessing from our God because of our Obedience. When a person becomes Redeemed, the Spirit of God writes the Law on our Hearts so that our desire will be to obey it.
Jesus clearly taught that "Lawlessness" was a sign of unbelief. Those who do not obey His commands which He gave to Moses were not His. Obeying God is an outward sign that you belong to Him. James further explained this.
The Christian Church in America has clearly taught that lawlessness is acceptable to God. That is why it has no power.
I am not a Jew. I am not a Messianic. I am not a 7th Adventist. I do not follow the teachings of the Rabbis. My Family and I obey what the Bible states and that is it. We have abandoned the pagan holidays - christmas, easter, halloween, etc.
We observe the Sabbath - 7th Day, Biblical Feasts, and our heart is to obey God's Commands.
1 - Became a Christian in 12/1989 and was baptized at a Southern Baptist Church in 01/1990 after I made public my redemption.
2- Attended New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary and Luther Rice Theological Seminary
3- Worked for 6 years as a Youth Pastor, Supply and Revival Preacher
I was taught that the Law was dead and the Jesus Christ nailed it to the Cross. But this isn't what is actually taught. Jesus stated that He came to fulfill the Law. He fulfilled the Passover, then Unleavened Bread. After that He fulfilled Pentecoast. Now we are in the Feasts of Weeks which is coming to an end. Later the Feasts of Trumpets, Day of Atonement, and Sukkot will be fulfilled. He also came to remove the Commandments of Men which had been added to His Law. The Hedge/Fence of the Law that the Rabbis added. (You can only walk so many steps on a sabbath, etc.)
Jesus restored His commands to their original Intent.
Example - Do not Murder >>> Do not Hate
Do not commit Adultery >>> Do not Lust
Love your Friends/Hate your enemy >>> Love your enemy
But what most do not understand is that Redemption is not provided for in the Law. There are no Sacrifices which provide for the Forgiveness of Willful Sin in the Law of God. That is why Jesus came. He came to be the Passover Lamb who would take away the sins of the World. Abraham prophesied this when taking Issac to the Mountain to be sacrificed - "God Himself will provide the Lamb"
We obey the Law because we Love our Father. We receive blessing from our God because of our Obedience. When a person becomes Redeemed, the Spirit of God writes the Law on our Hearts so that our desire will be to obey it.
Jesus clearly taught that "Lawlessness" was a sign of unbelief. Those who do not obey His commands which He gave to Moses were not His. Obeying God is an outward sign that you belong to Him. James further explained this.
The Christian Church in America has clearly taught that lawlessness is acceptable to God. That is why it has no power.
I am not a Jew. I am not a Messianic. I am not a 7th Adventist. I do not follow the teachings of the Rabbis. My Family and I obey what the Bible states and that is it. We have abandoned the pagan holidays - christmas, easter, halloween, etc.
We observe the Sabbath - 7th Day, Biblical Feasts, and our heart is to obey God's Commands.
bananabrain
awkward squadnik
the thing is, you see, that the authority for humans to interpret the Torah comes from, well, the Torah. as i have pointed out numerous times, the source is devarim / deuteronomy 30, "lo ba-shamayim hi"; the Torah is not in heaven, but right here among us to be interpreted by humans, by majority decision as per shemoth/exodus 23:2. sola scriptura[i/] is *not* a jewish position. the test case is "lex talionis" - what happens if a blind man pokes your eye out, so you can't poke his out in revenge? Torah itself doesn't help you any more than it tells you how to get married, thus we are forced to conclude that monetary compensation is payable in lieu. even in the example quoted; work on shabbat is prohibited, but what do we mean by "work"? how do you get married by Torah law? only the procedure for divorce is specified. all laws have borders and the Torah is no exception; the border markers must be set by humans.M E Brooks said:
who says that these are correct? establishing intent requires human interpretation; we establish intent by majority consensus as pointed out above, rather than through one chap with supernatural powers, reported on by other people centuries later.
that's because we don't think it's required the way you do. redemption from what?
not sacrifices, but "teshubah" or repentance. provided you have already made restitution, asked forgiveness of any persons affected by the sin and made a commitment not to repeat it. and, in any case, in the absence of the Temple cultus, hosea 14:3 applies - "in place of bullocks we offer the words of our lips" - in other words, prayer. don't you think it wrong for intentional sin to be forgiven without atonement? i mean, nice of G!D and everything, but not exactly a good way to learn to be responsible for oneself. it certainly doesn't make a "redeemer of sin" necessary. we understand the concept of redemption rather differently.
that is your opinion, but we understand it quite differently.
hmmm. and do you check your clothes for shaatnez (linsey-woolsey), too? that's always the classic test case - see deuteronomy 22:11.
b'shalom
bananabrain