What made god?

[pfw]

All of your last post contains good points and I don't take offence at what your saying at all- I like nothing more that a good argument (in the non agressive meaning of the word- an exchange of ideas, views, opinion etc). I would agree that those answers may already be written down- being Christian I'm biased towards the Bible, which even just taking the New Testement alone, is contradictary, evasive, open to multiple interpritation (I've read some interesting stuff theorising Jesus was more 'political activist' than religious leader- and some persuasive arguments go with it). Then there's the minor point that the oldest (known) Gospel is (I think) John and that was only just written within 'living memory' of Christ (at least as far as the oldest known copy/fragments would suggest), that adds a few problems all of its own... I see no problem with exploring or challenging my own beliefs, ideas etc and (I was being rather flippant when I said I was making my own rules up) I'm looking for answers that sit well outside the box of Christianity-using scripture to back up scripture is circular and can be used to 'prove' almost any thing you want within that context. I think describing myself as Christian might be part of the problem- I don't believe in the virgin birth, I believe if Jesus was crucified and was walking around 3 days later it's because he didn't die on the cross, I don't believe he was literal God's Son, and I have a real problem with this trinity idea... I believe the answers can be found without 'God appearing' or helping, it's just a case of finding the right question... (kind of like '42' in Hitchhikers Guide...)

 

[17th Angel]

So you have the answer? But not the question... Interesting... Yeah, I say that "please don't take offense" line as a thing to cover me... So many get upset and cwy when you talk of religion... So yeah...

Wow... So we basically throw out the bible (NT) but not the OT? What would worry me with this idea, if people have seen the OT as suiting and fitting and god's word... They have linked and binded it with the NT... Giving that their approval too.. And of course there are many links between the two. So to not be happy with NT, doesn't that challange the authenticity of the OT? Or do you believe, that they are not fit to say what is real and what isn't and that is your choice?

 

[pfw]

You ask interesting questions, I like that I'm being forced to think about this.No, I wouldn't say 'throw out the Bible' (OT or NT), it just annoys me that so few Christians are even aware that there are, as just one example, translation problems with the Christian version(s) of the Bible (I've posted a thread on this subject under Abrhamic Religions-). The Christian OT is translated from Biblical Hebrew and Aramaic to Greek to Latin to English and then most other language edititons are translated from the English- A Christian will claim this is still the unadulterated, pure word of God and ignore even the possiblity of there being any translation errors. The NT has similar, but admited, less pronounced problem (less languages and shorter time to get to English language version). I think I'm beginning to realise I'm not actualy a Christian- it's just a label I've become 'comfortable' with. Maybe I'm a seeker or questioner? I think I owe you a thanks for helping to nudge me towards that realisation, Thanks. I still think that the Bible has a lot to offer in a spiritual sense. In a couple of my previous posts I've mentioned evolution, the big bang... others may have seized on those and questioned my beliefe in God if I also believe them. That's not something you've done-may I ask why? (I'll answer 1 question before it comes- emphaticly NO, God should never be used to 'fill the gaps' in scientific knowledge- science should constantly seek to fill those gaps with science. Understanding this universe, nature, mechanics, physics etc is- in a way- an attempt to understand God in my opinion.)

 

[17th Angel]

I think that is my only purpose here... To hopefully make you think... And then it should, I imagine back up your faith and make you stronger. If you go unchallanged.... Are you sure you're right?

Yup, I believe I answered in that thread about the bibles.

It is interesting though isn't it, how there are so many differing version of the bible, and in the end indeed they maybe the word of god, but they are writen, logged, edited, "translated" all by humans... We make errors.. Frequentley. I think it is wise, that you recongisne it could be the word of god, but that there also could be errors in the text. Not only that, the bible itself states there are those who wish to turn you away from the correct religion, to confuse you, to trick, decieve and make you become lost... What better way? Have many version of the same book all pointing you in the opposite direction. Some say there are many "fake" religions so that you become confused, can there possibly, be fake bibles? If the bible was a tree... And you had to hide it? Place an abundant amount of trees around that tree, a forest... You would never find the right one easily..

Why did I not question your faith in god? Because who am I? Whatever you truly know or truly feel is up to you to know and feel... I can't feel for you. That free will thing.... I just wanted to suggest a few things to see if it helped you.

god used to fill gaps? I think that happens alot for many things... "he works in mysterious ways" Not only in science and such, also in religion I believe god is used to fill gaps... If you can understand what I mean by that...

 

[Promethium]

Sure we make errors in translation but it doesnt mean one error is equal to another. Besides if the Bible was perfect we wouldnt be able to comprehend it perfectly because were not perfect. Of course if we were perfect we wouldnt need to learn from the Bible either.

 

[pfw]

. Besides if the Bible was perfect we wouldnt be able to comprehend it perfectly because were not perfect..

please explain this-because I think your saying God's own word isn't perfect here, which would seem to suggest it's ok to pick the interpritation you're most comfortable with rather than question and find the truth. (Abraham apears to have Questioned God frequently and come out from it ok, same with Moses and even Jesus in Gethsemini{I'll have to check spelling there}-which brings into question this whole Trinity thing...)

 

[Silas]

And to answer you other question, 'how would I be able to abide by his rules'- assuming God exists etc, which set of his rules am I supposed to live by today? which one of the religions, all claiming the one and only truth and the only path back to God am I supposed to follow? He certaily seems to be quiet on the subject when I ask- so does that mean none of them or any one of them I take a fancy to or make my own up? (He doesn't seem to be answering that one either so I'm going with the latter- If that turns out to be wrong, and I get punished when I die for it, I'll be sending Him a stifly worded letter of complaint...)

If you humble yourself by assuming your rightful possition of being a nothing compared to God and submit to His rules, namely, to repent and trust in Jesus, He will answer you. As it stands now, however, you have yet to humble yourself or repent and trust in Jesus. That being that case, God will not answer you. "God resist proud people and gives grace to the Humble."

 

[pfw]

If you humble yourself by assuming your rightful possition of being a nothing compared to God and submit to His rules, namely, to repent and trust in Jesus, He will answer you. As it stands now, however, you have yet to humble yourself or repent and trust in Jesus. That being that case, God will not answer you. "God resist proud people and gives grace to the Humble."

in the post you are responding with the abovet I was MAKING A JOKE (and being just a teeny weeny bit sarcastic)-or is humour not allowed in Christian thinking? Lighten up, it's this preachey, holier than thou attitude that drove me away from Christianity in the first place.

 

[Silas]

You left the faith because you never were apart of the faith. You only thought you were saved (1 John 2:18-19). You dont get born again and then unborn agian. The truth is you never repented and trusted in Christ and therefore was never born again in the first place. I encourage you to judge yourself by what God calls good - namely, Jesus, and see how you come up. His standards of good isnt relative and he isnt going to judge you by what you think is good. Look at His laws (the ten commandments) and judge yourself by them. Have you kept them? If not, you'll be judged by them. If you find that you're as God says - namely bad and in need of a Savior, lest you suffer the cost of breaking His laws (sinning), then repent and trust in Jesus and God will forgive you. Not because you're good, but because your fine will have been paid by Christ. It works like this: We break the Law and Christ paid the fine. If we repent and believe in Him (trusting Christ), we will be made right with God. We'd be justified in His court room. All that said, my bad if I sound preachy or holier than thou. I dont mean to sound holier than thou at all, I'm just being real with you. Sorry I missed the joke!

 

[wil]

in the post you are responding with the abovet I was MAKING A JOKE (and being just a teeny weeny bit sarcastic)-or is humour not allowed in Christian thinking? Lighten up, it's this preachey, holier than thou attitude that drove me away from Christianity in the first place.

After a while you notice the posts and understand where folks are coming from around here....some have either got their license or are trying to prove themselves worthy of getting a commercial busman's license to drive folks away.... you can choose not to get on the bus...

 

[pfw]

I understand the concept of Jesus sacrifice- although (and I hate to admit it) that has to be one of the best and easiest to understand explainations I've heard so far. I thought the joke was obvious with the 'punch-line'-sending God a strongly worded letter (I never claimed it was a funny joke).

 

[Silas]

I understand the concept of Jesus sacrifice- although (and I hate to admit it) that has to be one of the best and easiest to understand explainations I've heard so far. I thought the joke was obvious with the 'punch-line'-sending God a strongly worded letter (I never claimed it was a funny joke).

...Way to be honest about the joke! Hey I have a couple of questions for you, hope you dont mind. Why do you think the whole Bible can be sumed up in one word: Jesus? Why do you think Jesus came?

 

[InLove]

I may regret typing this "out loud", but five-point Calvinism 101 is not the only Christian classroom around.

 

[Silas]

lol. This isnt about Calvinism...I'm trying to keep this very simple with pfw. I'm curious to know what he or she (sorry, I dont know if you're male or female), think is the reason why Jesus is so important to us Christians.

 

[InLove]

lol. This isnt about Calvinism...I'm trying to keep this very simple with pfw. I'm curious to know what he or she (sorry, I dont know if you're male or female), think is the reason why Jesus is so important to us Christians.

If you say so, Silas. We'll see where it goes. Apologies to everyone for that brief vent--just something that has been on the tip of my fingers to say for a while now, and it just finally found it's way to my keyboard.

InPeace (again)
InLove

(and over and out for a while....)

 

[pfw]

lol. This isnt about Calvinism...I'm trying to keep this very simple with pfw. I'm curious to know what he or she (sorry, I dont know if you're male or female), think is the reason why Jesus is so important to us Christians.

I'm finished with this thread-this is the second time I've taken one 'off topic' and I don't want to get a rep here... the answer to you question is Jesus is important to Christianity because you all believe he fulfiled the OT prophecies of a messia, you belive he suffered and died to pay for human sin and without accepting that sacrifice no-one can enter heaven(that's obviously very broad strokes with no detailing but about right?) By the way I'm he-male.

 

[Silas]

Inlove, Arent you that same person that asked me to call you one time?

 

[InLove]

Inlove, Arent you that same person that asked me to call you one time?

I assure you that this is not the case, Silas. This is not the first time you have gotten me mixed up with someone else. Assuming that your confusion is sincere, I would appreciate it if you would make it the last. Thanks.

InPeace,
InLove

 

[Silas]

I'm finished with this thread-this is the second time I've taken one 'off topic' and I don't want to get a rep here... the answer to you question is Jesus is important to Christianity because you all believe he fulfiled the OT prophecies of a messia, you belive he suffered and died to pay for human sin and without accepting that sacrifice no-one can enter heaven(that's obviously very broad strokes with no detailing but about right?) By the way I'm he-male.

We have something in common then, I'm male too. About the answer you gave though, that is only one side of why Jesus came. You see, Christ came to do basically do two very important things:

1. He came to display the Holiness of God. The God of the Bible is a God of Holiness. He says throughout scripture, that while He is Loving, He will by no way let the guilty go unpunished. Therefore, Christ came to display the Justice and righteousness of God, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins (Romans 3:25).

2. He came to save all those who would trust in Him from God's holiness. Again, God will not let the guilty go unpunished - he will always seek Justice! Christ' suffering and agony (not the whipping, or crusifixion, but instead the super natural event that took place on the cross), serves as an atoning subsitation sacrifice for all those who would believe. It works like this: If you are in Christ, all of your sins are imputed to his body were he suffered for sin and all of His righteousness is imputed or credited to your account, thereby giving you Christ' perfection. You are then saved "not of yourselve" e.g., not of your own good works, not of anything in you, but wholely on behalf of Jesus' perfect life imputed to you.

On the 3rd day, Jesus then rose from the grave to validate His claims of being God and to justify those trusting in Him. He did this all for the praise and glory of His name. Do not image that God is some weak guy crying in the sky hoping that people would one day wake up to the fact that God is better than sex or drugs. Christ came to the Glory of God. God does everything for His own Glory.

 

[Silas]

I assure you that this is not the case, Silas. This is not the first time you have gotten me mixed up with someone else. Assuming that your confusion is sincere, I would appreciate it if you would make it the last. Thanks.

InPeace,
InLove

Trust me...My confussion is sincere! I have a really bad memory - no lie.