Hard topic...maybe?

I would like to address the issue of this verse. Let's remember that Romans 9-11 deals primarily with Israel. You have to look at God's purpose in that light. Earlier in Roman's 9, Paul expresses heaviness in heart for his brethren according to the Promise of God through the seed of Abraham. The election concerns a specific purpose in using Israel to bring forth God's glory to the world. When Paul speaks that they are not all children of the promise just because they are the seed of Abraham, for we must remember that God had two sons, Isaac and Ishmael, and the distinction in the children of promise only goes through Isaac. Then Paul further breaks it down to Jacob and Esau. You must be aware that the descendents of Jacob and Esau became two nations, namely Israel and Edom. Jacob is favored, not because he is righteous, for you see throughout the story of these two brothers that in every turn, Esau got shafted through the trickiness of Jacob, first with the birthright, when Jacob tempted Esau when he was famished, and then by the blessing, when Jacob tricked Isaac in believing he was Esau. Esau was favored by Isaac, but Jacob was favored by Rebecca. Esau should have rightly been the heir of the blessings and birthright.

God's soverinty is evident, but not because He actually hated Esau. For if God hates those who sin, He should have hated Jacob. But the He favored Jacob because of the overall plan to raise up a nation who would bring forth the Messiah.

Later, in Genesis 33:11, Jacob and Esau were reconciled and Jacob actually blessed Esau. And Esau was blessed with much much riches in Genesis 36:7.

I do not believe that this passage concerns salvation to Jacob and damnation to Esau specifically as individuals. But rather the soveriegnty of God on a national level. The only reason to favor Jacob is to bring forth eventual salvation to the world through Christ. That is Israel's purpose.

"Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second." - Hebrews 10:9

The same thing occurs in regard to Pharoah. Pharoah represents the nation of Egypt, as very often nations are referred to as the names of their rulers (see Genesis 14).

The election of the children of Israel in the OT is a different dispensation. God deals not with us according to the Promises accorded to Israel, but according to grace through Christ. The floodgates have opened and now all can enter in, if they believe. Individual Jews are saved now through Christ, as are the Gentiles in the current dispensation, until the fulness of the Gentiles comes in. But the nation of Israel is still under the Promise of God through the prophesies accorded to them in the OT. Israel as a nation is still under an everlasting covenant with God. For after the fulness of the Gentiles come in, all of Israel will be saved.

"And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance." - Romans 11:26-29

Israel as a nation is awaiting redemption. They are still waiting for the Messiah according to the promise. And they will be redeemed as a nation when the Messiah comes, as a testimony to the world of the Glory of God.

Or do you think that the events in the apocalyptic literature are merely symbolic? Well, look around. Israel is a nation again (Ezekiel 36:24). Gog and Magog (Russia) have formed alliances with Persia (Iran) and other nations (Ezekiel 38-39). Europe is forming ito a unified state (Daniel 2 and 7). China can boast a 200 million man army (Revelation 9:14-16)

There is still a mystery with Israel. There are still prophetic events to be played out.

My whole point is that when God refers to those He hates in Romans 9-11, He is not referring to individuals, but catogories of people (i.e. the unrepented nations). God is dealing with Israel as a whole. The remnant referred to in Romans 11:5 refer to those Jews who have accepted Christ according to grace "at this present time". But what does it say in Romans 11:24?

"For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?"

Israel will be grafted back in and all of Israel will be saved, not according to the election of grace, but by the promise of the covenant.

"For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins."

God is not finished with Israel as a nation yet. But what of salvation through Jesus Christ? Part of the covenant is the appearance of the Messiah, who will turn out to be Jesus.

There are two different things going on here. Don't confuse the two.

How did you get that? First, Paul is talking about God's unconditional election to salvation. Do you honestly think Paul has heaviness in his heart because of something else? Paul said, "I am speaking the truth in Christ—I am not lying; my conscience bears me witness in the Holy Spirit—that I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, my kinsmen according to the flesh." Paul is talking about his fellow brothers according to the flesh, that is his Jewish brothers, and wants them all to be saved. But, he said, "for not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring."

Then Paul goes to talk about Jacob and Esau. He said: "But also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” Now lets reitterate. Notice how Paul tries to stress one very important point throughout Roamans 9 - namely, the sovereignity of God. Notice, he said that "before the were born" and "before they did anything good or bad" and "not because of any foreseen works," but "according to God's purposes", God chose one sinner over the other and said, "Jacob I loved but Esau, I hated." Now notice what Paul says next. He says something fully knowing what we will think, for he asks..."What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means!"

What is Paul's answer for this behavior? Let him give it: "For he [God] says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.' So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy." Now notice as Paul gets deeper into God's sovreignity in verse 17. He begins to talk about God rasing up Pharoh for a specific purpose, namely the purpose of showing Himself Great and bringing glory and fame to His name. Paul said: "For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, 'For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.' So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills." Do you honestly still think that God is talking about anything other than election to salvation? If so, let us go on, for soon you'll have to come to the conclussion that Paul is talking about God's choice in salvation. We are coming upon verse 19, the verse right after Paul tells us that God placed Pharaoh on the throne for one reason - namely that he might make His own name great.

Now we get to verse 19 and Paul anticipites your natural feelings and question, for he said, "You will say to me then, 'Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?'" Notice now, Paul's answer via the Holy Spirit: "But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, 'Why have you made me like this?' Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?" Paul now combats your answers with affairming that God the Creator has a right to do whatever He wants with His own creation. And as the psalmist declars of God, "God created everything, yea even the wicked for the day of destruction." But I digress. Let us go on to the next proof that Paul is talking about salvation. Before I do that however, I just want you to notice that Paul is still speaking in context of God choosing Jacob over Esau before they were born and before they did any good or bad, God choosing a specific Egyptian man to raise to Pharaoh, keeps him, sustains him, and finally uses him to make His power known by showing Him that He is the true God and all of the gods in egypt are as nothing to him. I want you to see that God is still speaking in context of all of this. Now we reach verus 22 and Paul asks:

"What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?" Paul asks the rethorical question about God doing what he desires - namely to make his power known through the vessels of wrath in order that he may make known the riches of his glory for the vessels of mercy, which by the way (and here comes more proof that he is speaking of salvation) are from all the peoples of the earth: Jews and Gentiles. A people from every tounge, nation, and tribe. So you see, this whole chapter is talking about God's election in salvation. God takes from the same group of wicked sinners, one to show mercy (and this choice is not merited because of some worth in the person, but by God showing mercy) and leaves the other sinner in his own choice to continue in sin and then He punishes Him to display his wrath. In the end, God will be seen in totality, from Love to Wrath and all of His excellent attributes in between. God is Sovereign in everything, including salvation (salvation is of the Lord!) and as King Neb tells us in Daniel chapt 4..."all the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, and he does according to his will among the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand or say to him, "What have you done?"
 
Of course, I'm still waiting for a simple answer to a simple question, post 32.

My bad! My answer to your question is neither. God does not like the one that hears and does not actually do, and does not like the one who does good apart from Christ. Here's are only 2 quick reasons why:

1. When we do good work apart from Christ, God does not get the glory. Remember, "
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God" (1Cor 10:31) and "whatever is not from faith is sin" (Romans 14:23)

2. Your good works arent good enough to please God. As it is written "We have all become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a filty menstration rag" (Isa 64:6)

If any man wants to repent and trust in Jesus, God will bring them into a relationship with Him. Those who seek other ways are theives and robbers.

[/FONT]
 
Kindest Regards, Silas!

Thank you for your thoughtful answer.

No doubt you will disagree with my reply...

My bad! My answer to your question is neither.

Romans 2:1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

Romans 2:2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.

Romans 2:3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?

Romans 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

Romans 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

Romans 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:


Romans 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

Romans 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

Romans 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

Romans 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

Romans 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Romans 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

Romans 2:13 ( For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Romans 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

Romans 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; )

Romans 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Romans 2:17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,

Romans 2:18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;

Romans 2:19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,

Romans 2:20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.

Romans 2:21 Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?

Romans 2:22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?

Romans 2:23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?

Romans 2:24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.

Romans 2:25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

Romans 2:26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?

Romans 2:27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?

Romans 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

Romans 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
 
Let's see, verse 1 is about doing, verse 6 is about deeds, verses 7-8 are about doing, verse 10 is about good works, verse 13 bears repeating: "Romans 2:13 ( For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.", verse 14 is about doing, verse 15 is about works of the law, and the balance is pretty much about actions, (in other words...deeds, works, having done in the past tense).

Ergo, according to this passage in Romans, Gandhi would have found grace and favor in the eyes of G-d...regardless of any other human's opinions on the matter.

Toodles! :D
 
Let's see, verse 1 is about doing, verse 6 is about deeds, verses 7-8 are about doing, verse 10 is about good works, verse 13 bears repeating: "Romans 2:13 ( For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.", verse 14 is about doing, verse 15 is about works of the law, and the balance is pretty much about actions, (in other words...deeds, works, having done in the past tense).

Ergo, according to this passage in Romans, Gandhi would have found grace and favor in the eyes of G-d...regardless of any other human's opinions on the matter.

Toodles! :D

To be honest, here's what I think when I read all those scriptures you qoute: 1 Corinthians 2:14
 
To be honest, here's what I think when I read all those scriptures you qoute: 1 Corinthians 2:14

one verse you haven't got balls enough to post...against more than a whole chapter? Who is it that twists scripture? I put the whole chapter so everyone can see what I am saying in context...not scripture picking to force fit a verse to my personal liking.

C'mon, be a man, a real Christian man...take the whole book, not just the pablum.
 
**Let me spare you the trouble of being a real Christian man, and up the ante. The whole chapter, with special emphasis on verse 15!:

I Corinthians 2:1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.

I Corinthians 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

I Corinthians 2:3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.

I Corinthians 2:4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:

I Corinthians 2:5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

I Corinthians 2:6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

I Corinthians 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

I Corinthians 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

I Corinthians 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

I Corinthians 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

I Corinthians 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

I Corinthians 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

I Corinthians 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

I Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

I Corinthians 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

I Corinthians 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
 
one verse you haven't got balls enough to post...against more than a whole chapter? Who is it that twists scripture? I put the whole chapter so everyone can see what I am saying in context...not scripture picking to force fit a verse to my personal liking.

C'mon, be a man, a real Christian man...take the whole book, not just the pablum.


"Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest you be like him yourself." - Proverb 26:4
 
Answer: Yes God loves "everything" and everybody. (Including the Satan)

Reason: Why would GOD create something to hate it. That's like someone planning to spend money on something they do not want.
 
Too late for you I guess.

A CR bible study is looking better every day, I should think...;)

I too have learned that if one precedes and procedes the verse in question (in otherwords read the whole chapter or book), then the story changes, and the meaning becomes quiet clear as to what the originating author was attempting to provide us.

Case in point: "Ruth, was a moabitase", hence none Hebrew, and not sanctioned for anything but being a maid servant. Yet we find she became the grand dame for David's ultimate existence...

...but who would know, unless they read the entire book of Ruth?...
 
Answer: Yes God loves "everything" and everybody. (Including the Satan)

Reason: Why would GOD create something to hate it. That's like someone planning to spend money on something they do not want.

Well, God's purpose in creating wasnt to hate. But that said, let me ask you a question. Do you believe God loves satan and all hell bound sinners the same way he loves you?
 
"Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest you be like him yourself." - Proverb 26:4

Never argue with an idiot...people watching might not be able to tell the difference...

Never wrestle with a pig...you both fall in the mud and the pig, likes it...

Lean not unto thine own understanding, but from "every word" that procedes from the mouth of God...

Every word, not just parts here and parts there...

v/r

Joshua
 
Well, God's purpose in creating wasnt to hate. But that said, let me ask you a question. Do you believe God loves satan and all hell bound sinners the same way he loves you?

You ask a hell of a lot of questions, but you aren't willing to give any straight answers to the questions asked of you.

Why should anyone bother? You will just persecute them for their trouble.
 
Well, God's purpose in creating wasnt to hate. But that said, let me ask you a question. Do you believe God loves satan and all hell bound sinners the same way he loves you?

Obviously the answer is "NO" (to the satan part), and yes to the human sinner part....John 3: 16...

v/r

Joshua
 
Obviously the answer is "NO" (to the satan part), and yes to the human sinner part....John 3: 16...

v/r

Joshua

Is that what you get from the context of John 3? Contrast John 3:16 with John 3:18.
 
You ask a hell of a lot of questions, but you aren't willing to give any straight answers to the questions asked of you.

Why should anyone bother? You will just persecute them for their trouble.

Another questiion (really an old one): Why arent you a Christian?
 
Kindest Regards, Q!
A CR bible study is looking better every day, I should think...;)

I too have learned that if one precedes and procedes the verse in question (in otherwords read the whole chapter or book), then the story changes, and the meaning becomes quiet clear as to what the originating author was attempting to provide us.

Case in point: "Ruth, was a moabitase", hence none Hebrew, and not sanctioned for anything but being a maid servant. Yet we find she became the grand dame for David's ultimate existence...

...but who would know, unless they read the entire book of Ruth?...
Lessons in common sense are wasted on intolerant bigots like Silas, he will never understand. He is too brainwashed.
 
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