S
Silas
Guest
I would like to address the issue of this verse. Let's remember that Romans 9-11 deals primarily with Israel. You have to look at God's purpose in that light. Earlier in Roman's 9, Paul expresses heaviness in heart for his brethren according to the Promise of God through the seed of Abraham. The election concerns a specific purpose in using Israel to bring forth God's glory to the world. When Paul speaks that they are not all children of the promise just because they are the seed of Abraham, for we must remember that God had two sons, Isaac and Ishmael, and the distinction in the children of promise only goes through Isaac. Then Paul further breaks it down to Jacob and Esau. You must be aware that the descendents of Jacob and Esau became two nations, namely Israel and Edom. Jacob is favored, not because he is righteous, for you see throughout the story of these two brothers that in every turn, Esau got shafted through the trickiness of Jacob, first with the birthright, when Jacob tempted Esau when he was famished, and then by the blessing, when Jacob tricked Isaac in believing he was Esau. Esau was favored by Isaac, but Jacob was favored by Rebecca. Esau should have rightly been the heir of the blessings and birthright.
God's soverinty is evident, but not because He actually hated Esau. For if God hates those who sin, He should have hated Jacob. But the He favored Jacob because of the overall plan to raise up a nation who would bring forth the Messiah.
Later, in Genesis 33:11, Jacob and Esau were reconciled and Jacob actually blessed Esau. And Esau was blessed with much much riches in Genesis 36:7.
I do not believe that this passage concerns salvation to Jacob and damnation to Esau specifically as individuals. But rather the soveriegnty of God on a national level. The only reason to favor Jacob is to bring forth eventual salvation to the world through Christ. That is Israel's purpose.
"Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second." - Hebrews 10:9
The same thing occurs in regard to Pharoah. Pharoah represents the nation of Egypt, as very often nations are referred to as the names of their rulers (see Genesis 14).
The election of the children of Israel in the OT is a different dispensation. God deals not with us according to the Promises accorded to Israel, but according to grace through Christ. The floodgates have opened and now all can enter in, if they believe. Individual Jews are saved now through Christ, as are the Gentiles in the current dispensation, until the fulness of the Gentiles comes in. But the nation of Israel is still under the Promise of God through the prophesies accorded to them in the OT. Israel as a nation is still under an everlasting covenant with God. For after the fulness of the Gentiles come in, all of Israel will be saved.
"And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance." - Romans 11:26-29
Israel as a nation is awaiting redemption. They are still waiting for the Messiah according to the promise. And they will be redeemed as a nation when the Messiah comes, as a testimony to the world of the Glory of God.
Or do you think that the events in the apocalyptic literature are merely symbolic? Well, look around. Israel is a nation again (Ezekiel 36:24). Gog and Magog (Russia) have formed alliances with Persia (Iran) and other nations (Ezekiel 38-39). Europe is forming ito a unified state (Daniel 2 and 7). China can boast a 200 million man army (Revelation 9:14-16)
There is still a mystery with Israel. There are still prophetic events to be played out.
My whole point is that when God refers to those He hates in Romans 9-11, He is not referring to individuals, but catogories of people (i.e. the unrepented nations). God is dealing with Israel as a whole. The remnant referred to in Romans 11:5 refer to those Jews who have accepted Christ according to grace "at this present time". But what does it say in Romans 11:24?
"For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?"
Israel will be grafted back in and all of Israel will be saved, not according to the election of grace, but by the promise of the covenant.
"For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins."
God is not finished with Israel as a nation yet. But what of salvation through Jesus Christ? Part of the covenant is the appearance of the Messiah, who will turn out to be Jesus.
There are two different things going on here. Don't confuse the two.
How did you get that? First, Paul is talking about God's unconditional election to salvation. Do you honestly think Paul has heaviness in his heart because of something else? Paul said, "I am speaking the truth in Christ—I am not lying; my conscience bears me witness in the Holy Spirit—that I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, my kinsmen according to the flesh." Paul is talking about his fellow brothers according to the flesh, that is his Jewish brothers, and wants them all to be saved. But, he said, "for not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring."
Then Paul goes to talk about Jacob and Esau. He said: "But also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” Now lets reitterate. Notice how Paul tries to stress one very important point throughout Roamans 9 - namely, the sovereignity of God. Notice, he said that "before the were born" and "before they did anything good or bad" and "not because of any foreseen works," but "according to God's purposes", God chose one sinner over the other and said, "Jacob I loved but Esau, I hated." Now notice what Paul says next. He says something fully knowing what we will think, for he asks..."What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means!"
What is Paul's answer for this behavior? Let him give it: "For he [God] says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.' So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy." Now notice as Paul gets deeper into God's sovreignity in verse 17. He begins to talk about God rasing up Pharoh for a specific purpose, namely the purpose of showing Himself Great and bringing glory and fame to His name. Paul said: "For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, 'For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.' So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills." Do you honestly still think that God is talking about anything other than election to salvation? If so, let us go on, for soon you'll have to come to the conclussion that Paul is talking about God's choice in salvation. We are coming upon verse 19, the verse right after Paul tells us that God placed Pharaoh on the throne for one reason - namely that he might make His own name great.
Now we get to verse 19 and Paul anticipites your natural feelings and question, for he said, "You will say to me then, 'Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?'" Notice now, Paul's answer via the Holy Spirit: "But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, 'Why have you made me like this?' Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?" Paul now combats your answers with affairming that God the Creator has a right to do whatever He wants with His own creation. And as the psalmist declars of God, "God created everything, yea even the wicked for the day of destruction." But I digress. Let us go on to the next proof that Paul is talking about salvation. Before I do that however, I just want you to notice that Paul is still speaking in context of God choosing Jacob over Esau before they were born and before they did any good or bad, God choosing a specific Egyptian man to raise to Pharaoh, keeps him, sustains him, and finally uses him to make His power known by showing Him that He is the true God and all of the gods in egypt are as nothing to him. I want you to see that God is still speaking in context of all of this. Now we reach verus 22 and Paul asks:
"What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?" Paul asks the rethorical question about God doing what he desires - namely to make his power known through the vessels of wrath in order that he may make known the riches of his glory for the vessels of mercy, which by the way (and here comes more proof that he is speaking of salvation) are from all the peoples of the earth: Jews and Gentiles. A people from every tounge, nation, and tribe. So you see, this whole chapter is talking about God's election in salvation. God takes from the same group of wicked sinners, one to show mercy (and this choice is not merited because of some worth in the person, but by God showing mercy) and leaves the other sinner in his own choice to continue in sin and then He punishes Him to display his wrath. In the end, God will be seen in totality, from Love to Wrath and all of His excellent attributes in between. God is Sovereign in everything, including salvation (salvation is of the Lord!) and as King Neb tells us in Daniel chapt 4..."all the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, and he does according to his will among the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand or say to him, "What have you done?"