a POLITE discussion of the 5 fundamentals
- Thread starter juantoo3
- Start date
Francis king
Well-Known Member
k, I'll be polite...
Biblical Inerrancy:
to believe that the bible is the undisputed and infallible word of God is a foolish position for any sane and rational adult to stand for- each schism in the catholic church, and every sponsor of the bible since the year Dot has altered the tenets... this is not top secret information and can be found at wikipedia...under catholicism...
for instance, the Orthodox church became orthodox because theologians voted on whether Mary was to be venerated as the womb of god, or whether she should be non ascended, a mere mortal like the rest, and the main body of the church decided that Mary shouldn't be venerated like this anymore, which she had been, and because of this, some catholics joke that Mary had to wait til 1956 before she got into heaven...
for instance, we do not know with certainty whether the apochrypal or gnostic texts were once, potentially, original bible teachings, and becuase the bible had been set in stone by then nobody really gives much consideration whether some bits of them really are teachings of jesus...
for instance, the KJV is called such because King James sponsored the writing of it, and its why there are so many references to honouring kings in it... the ppl who wrote it wanted to curry favour with the King, and did, and got loads of money for it...
for the bible to be the infalliable undisputed word of God, from cover to cover, based on this evidence, is impossible...
The divinity of Jesus
the christian church has also battled about this, at one point jesus was god, at another, jesus was man... in the end, they decided on man/god... some xtians left, another schism formed, etc, etc...
The virgin birth
if jesus was born of a woman, then he was a man... however, if he was born of a virgin, then it made him more godly... see above... many religious traditions have miraculous births for their messiahs- krsna was born becuase his mother ran through a field where a man had left a bit of his "seed" on blade of grass, buddha's mother lay down in a field and an elephant appeared and entered the side of her body, etc, etc... as far as I am aware, unless artificial insemination occurs, then a man and woman must get jiggy to produce life... unless Our Lady had a turkey baster, it seems unlikely, yet if u are a person who believes God is all powerful, then yes, it is possible...
The belief that Jesus died to redeem man
the crucifixtion is another bug bear which has caused schisms within the over arching body of the church... look for councils, do a bit of research, and u will see for urself... again, some christians believe that it was God's plan for his son to die on the cross and save mankind, others don't... some ppl, like me, believe that Jesus would have had a great career, had they not put him on the cross...
of course christianity would have a purpose without jesus dying on the cross... his teachings, his ministry, they would be important, as important as they are today, to xtians... whether he died or not on the cross doesn't matter- that u know who he is, and what he said, even though he lived 1000's of years ago, that, to me, is what matters...
An expectation of the Second Coming, or physical return of Jesus Christ to initiate his 1000-year rule on the earth
I have a problem with this bit... lets all believe that one day a messiah will come and make everything okay... why wait, ppl? why not do it anyway, so that when he does come back, he'll be proud of us..?
again, most religions around the world have messiahs... they never seem to appear... why the wait? ...
so, u might think, if the bible aint the word of god, but the words of men, and if jesus was just a man, what good is the bible, and what is the point of worshipping jesus..?
all I can say then, is... within the bible, there are some truths, some things Jesus did say, we should look out for them bits, as they are worthy bits... we should have respect for this crazy young jew who wanted us try and make the world a better place, and we should be thankful he existed... beyond that...? well, what more do u want...?
Biblical Inerrancy:
to believe that the bible is the undisputed and infallible word of God is a foolish position for any sane and rational adult to stand for- each schism in the catholic church, and every sponsor of the bible since the year Dot has altered the tenets... this is not top secret information and can be found at wikipedia...under catholicism...
for instance, the Orthodox church became orthodox because theologians voted on whether Mary was to be venerated as the womb of god, or whether she should be non ascended, a mere mortal like the rest, and the main body of the church decided that Mary shouldn't be venerated like this anymore, which she had been, and because of this, some catholics joke that Mary had to wait til 1956 before she got into heaven...
for instance, we do not know with certainty whether the apochrypal or gnostic texts were once, potentially, original bible teachings, and becuase the bible had been set in stone by then nobody really gives much consideration whether some bits of them really are teachings of jesus...
for instance, the KJV is called such because King James sponsored the writing of it, and its why there are so many references to honouring kings in it... the ppl who wrote it wanted to curry favour with the King, and did, and got loads of money for it...
for the bible to be the infalliable undisputed word of God, from cover to cover, based on this evidence, is impossible...
The divinity of Jesus
the christian church has also battled about this, at one point jesus was god, at another, jesus was man... in the end, they decided on man/god... some xtians left, another schism formed, etc, etc...
The virgin birth
if jesus was born of a woman, then he was a man... however, if he was born of a virgin, then it made him more godly... see above... many religious traditions have miraculous births for their messiahs- krsna was born becuase his mother ran through a field where a man had left a bit of his "seed" on blade of grass, buddha's mother lay down in a field and an elephant appeared and entered the side of her body, etc, etc... as far as I am aware, unless artificial insemination occurs, then a man and woman must get jiggy to produce life... unless Our Lady had a turkey baster, it seems unlikely, yet if u are a person who believes God is all powerful, then yes, it is possible...
The belief that Jesus died to redeem man
the crucifixtion is another bug bear which has caused schisms within the over arching body of the church... look for councils, do a bit of research, and u will see for urself... again, some christians believe that it was God's plan for his son to die on the cross and save mankind, others don't... some ppl, like me, believe that Jesus would have had a great career, had they not put him on the cross...
of course christianity would have a purpose without jesus dying on the cross... his teachings, his ministry, they would be important, as important as they are today, to xtians... whether he died or not on the cross doesn't matter- that u know who he is, and what he said, even though he lived 1000's of years ago, that, to me, is what matters...
An expectation of the Second Coming, or physical return of Jesus Christ to initiate his 1000-year rule on the earth
I have a problem with this bit... lets all believe that one day a messiah will come and make everything okay... why wait, ppl? why not do it anyway, so that when he does come back, he'll be proud of us..?
again, most religions around the world have messiahs... they never seem to appear... why the wait? ...
so, u might think, if the bible aint the word of god, but the words of men, and if jesus was just a man, what good is the bible, and what is the point of worshipping jesus..?
all I can say then, is... within the bible, there are some truths, some things Jesus did say, we should look out for them bits, as they are worthy bits... we should have respect for this crazy young jew who wanted us try and make the world a better place, and we should be thankful he existed... beyond that...? well, what more do u want...?
ouch, ok, my bad. forgot to add the Namaste Q. As it is true, I know where your heart is. I just don't understand your thinking at the moment. My goal is exploration and increased understanding. I also am in favor of full disclosure. ie simply because someone of my organization or belief system embarrasses me, or the orginization, does not mean we rewrite history to right him out. We make apologies and ammends for our mistakes, not excuses and move on.(Quick to sense rudeness afoot, Politenessman hurls his steel hankie.)
I'd like to throw my red linen hankie to ask the judges for an instant replay...Politenessman is just to quick sometimes...
juantoo3
....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb
Kindest Regards, wil!
Yet around here somewhere within the last couple of months this very issue came up, and a rather humanist sounding quote centered around eugenics. Fully realizing that a "good" politician knows how to play to an audience, I can see where Hitler could make an appeal to those Christians of his concern, just as he could to others. Officially, Germany is Christian. Specifically, Protestant. Lutheran, if I am not mistaken. So Hitler would have had to play to a Christian audience for political support.
That said, I hardly think he represents Christianity any more than as a "token" Christian.
Yet around here somewhere within the last couple of months this very issue came up, and a rather humanist sounding quote centered around eugenics. Fully realizing that a "good" politician knows how to play to an audience, I can see where Hitler could make an appeal to those Christians of his concern, just as he could to others. Officially, Germany is Christian. Specifically, Protestant. Lutheran, if I am not mistaken. So Hitler would have had to play to a Christian audience for political support.
That said, I hardly think he represents Christianity any more than as a "token" Christian.
juantoo3
....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb
Kindest Regards, China Cat!
Is this the same guy that said this place needed shaking up? Who preferred a mosh pit atmosphere? That basically everything should be allowed, metaphorically knees to the groin and elbows to the eyes? Who lamented the banning of one previous such fundie, specifically a Christian fundie?
I have a little different view. Yes, all POV's should be allowed, up to the point of trying to lord over one another, hence the reason I am not in favor of "mosh pit," and go to lengths to stress manners and respect.
Fundies have their hearts in the right place, like so very many others. Sometimes they simply need to see that in action. But like people in general, I have no illusions of saving everybody. Number one, that is up to G-d, however each happens to understand what that means. Number two, some people are not ready or are otherwise (self-) determined not to be assisted. If such people wish to observe, that's fine with me. When they wish to barge in and take over, I have issues with that.
Now, I asked the questions I did because I feel it is a legitimate exercise, probably the kind most of us do anyway, whether or not we are free enough to be able to admit it or not. I have no illusions that consensus equals truth, in any sense other than political. Some great truths we understand well now, were flights of fancy and idiot's dreams not all that long ago. Who's to say what will be regarded as truth a hundred years from now, that makes us look like fools. These kinds of truths are generational, that is, they change with time. Subjectivity all over again...
Underneath is an objective reality that must by definition be...but are any of us actually capable of looking at this raw reality for what it is, as it is and how it is? I have no personal doubt G-d exists, there is far too much circumstantial evidence that cannot be denied. It can be circumvented, it can be ignored, but it cannot be denied.
All the rest...religion, philosophy, science, memetic paradigms upon memetic paradigms...are merely conscious tools we use to attempt to understand. But these tools are functionally lacking and limited...the Buddhist "looking at the finger, not the moon to which it is pointed" or the Taoist "the way that can be named is not the true way" kind of thing.
I keep coming back in my mind to Schrodinger's cat...we might look to see if it is dead or alive, but our personal reality is relative to our view and preference...when the reality is probably more like "dead and alive." Sounds paradoxical, no doubt to some degree it is. But are we not dying even now while we are alive?
The concept of sacrifice is so horrible to consider...because it is too grisly to think of blood spilling out of a throat one has deliberately cut open? Nature is far more grisly, yet we consider nature beautiful...talk about paradox.
We have a tendency to whitewash what doesn't appeal to our preferred sense of decorum...which really is no different than any generation before us, leaving us their personal dictates to build upon, dismantle and remodel. The earth is flat...the earth is round...the earth is flat...the earth is round. In this generation we feel we have definitive proof that the earth is round.
Yet, what if I told you the earth is pear shaped?
This either seems so out of character for you, or I have long misunderstood...
Is this the same guy that said this place needed shaking up? Who preferred a mosh pit atmosphere? That basically everything should be allowed, metaphorically knees to the groin and elbows to the eyes? Who lamented the banning of one previous such fundie, specifically a Christian fundie?
I have a little different view. Yes, all POV's should be allowed, up to the point of trying to lord over one another, hence the reason I am not in favor of "mosh pit," and go to lengths to stress manners and respect.
Fundies have their hearts in the right place, like so very many others. Sometimes they simply need to see that in action. But like people in general, I have no illusions of saving everybody. Number one, that is up to G-d, however each happens to understand what that means. Number two, some people are not ready or are otherwise (self-) determined not to be assisted. If such people wish to observe, that's fine with me. When they wish to barge in and take over, I have issues with that.
Now, I asked the questions I did because I feel it is a legitimate exercise, probably the kind most of us do anyway, whether or not we are free enough to be able to admit it or not. I have no illusions that consensus equals truth, in any sense other than political. Some great truths we understand well now, were flights of fancy and idiot's dreams not all that long ago. Who's to say what will be regarded as truth a hundred years from now, that makes us look like fools. These kinds of truths are generational, that is, they change with time. Subjectivity all over again...
Underneath is an objective reality that must by definition be...but are any of us actually capable of looking at this raw reality for what it is, as it is and how it is? I have no personal doubt G-d exists, there is far too much circumstantial evidence that cannot be denied. It can be circumvented, it can be ignored, but it cannot be denied.
All the rest...religion, philosophy, science, memetic paradigms upon memetic paradigms...are merely conscious tools we use to attempt to understand. But these tools are functionally lacking and limited...the Buddhist "looking at the finger, not the moon to which it is pointed" or the Taoist "the way that can be named is not the true way" kind of thing.
I keep coming back in my mind to Schrodinger's cat...we might look to see if it is dead or alive, but our personal reality is relative to our view and preference...when the reality is probably more like "dead and alive." Sounds paradoxical, no doubt to some degree it is. But are we not dying even now while we are alive?
The concept of sacrifice is so horrible to consider...because it is too grisly to think of blood spilling out of a throat one has deliberately cut open? Nature is far more grisly, yet we consider nature beautiful...talk about paradox.
We have a tendency to whitewash what doesn't appeal to our preferred sense of decorum...which really is no different than any generation before us, leaving us their personal dictates to build upon, dismantle and remodel. The earth is flat...the earth is round...the earth is flat...the earth is round. In this generation we feel we have definitive proof that the earth is round.
Yet, what if I told you the earth is pear shaped?
I think there is a miscommunication here. I wasn't berating you. I was assuring you that I wasn't directing my post at you in a negative way. If I worded it poorly then I apologize. I was also literaly referring to the suggestion that if you read Mein Kampf, you would understand that he was not a Christian in any sense of the word.
I had no guile while I made my post.
v/r
Joshua
Dor
Bible Thumper
Namaste Dor,
So as to catch up, we did start another thread on this...but so we all don't take anything out of context.
In your question, the churches would stand up and do a jig in celebration. However many would still not listen. In my question I believe many churches would have issues...but many will stand and survive.
Time will tell.