a POLITE discussion of the 5 fundamentals

It's not just biblical inerrancy, fundamentalists believe that the the Torah was literally written by Moses, not pieced together from a collection of writings by from various sources. They think Matthew wrote Matthew, John wrote John, etc. There is no allowance for scholarly study of ancient literary genres and techniques, no metaphorical or analagous bandwidth, no room for myth, and no real understanding of actual ancient history. It's a little kindergarten Bible world with felt board characters and a uni-dimensional plot.

Chris
 
China Cat Sunflower said:
It's not just biblical inerrancy, fundamentalists believe that the the Torah was literally written by Moses, not pieced together from a collection of writings by from various sources. They think Matthew wrote Matthew, John wrote John, etc. There is no allowance for scholarly study of ancient literary genres and techniques, no metaphorical or analagous bandwidth, no room for myth, and no real understanding of actual ancient history. It's a little kindergarten Bible world with felt board characters and a uni-dimensional plot.

Chris
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Now Chris, isn't that a general speculation of "fundamentalists"? Or are you thinking about certain of the fundamental faiths, and grouping all together...? :eek:
 
juantoo3 said:
The belief that Jesus died to redeem man
Now, this to me is a non-issue, in that, without Jesus’ sacrifice, what purpose does Christianity serve? In my mind, none. Ergo, this had to be at least a significant portion of Jesus’ purpose and ministry, if not the defining purpose. Textually and culturally I find nothing yet to refute it.
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Hi my friends on the forum!
Three out of the five Christian fundamentals i.e.:
1. The divinity of Jesus
2. The redemption
3. The belief that Jesus died (on Cross)
The three in fact rest on the third, JesusYeshuaIssa’s cursed death on Cross, which never happened. So if it is proved that Jesus never died on Cross, then the whole edifice of Christianity, erected by Paul in Rome falls to the ground. He himself is a witness to it. Had he been a god he had no logical reason to relate it to Sign of Jonah? He pegged it with Jonah and Jonah was not a god. Though Jonah survived miraculously in the belly of the fish being alive there, yet he did not become a god; then how come Jesus who as per the Christians did a lower fulfillment of the sign by dieing on Cross instead of living on the Cross, could become a god? Any reason my friends, any logic! Logic and witnessing of Jesus relating the sign with Jonah is to be accepted humbly indeed.
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi – a peaceful faith in Islam
 
I think to most Christians things must be either this or that. There is no other possibility in sight. All of which hinges on some very shaky ground logically speaking. When Christ said, "come let us reason together" I think he was calling us to a higher vision beyond what we laughingly call thinking.
I fully belive that Christ is Divine, and shows us the way out of the little prison we find ouselves in. But the conventional view of what salvation is, and what it does is somewhat skewed by our human perception. Why the very act of perception includes this, but excludes that. Untill we are capable of a sight beyond our normal human consciousness we cannot even see the degree to which we are imprisoned.
Yes Jesus is Divine, and so are we though our level of development is so very low that we need to be led, shown that life has an aspect of holiness we think we are excluded from.
It is this thought and related thinking that is at the heart of our need for Salvation or atonement.

Peace
Mark
 
Hi Juantoo3:

1. For the sake of discussion, how crucial is it whether Jesus is viewed as Divine?
Yes. If not, then the 'mad or bad' scenario applies.

For a "Christian?"
Yes. If not, then someone has redefined the term according to his or her own opinion, at which point language becomes a nonsense. Anything can be anything.

For a non-Christian?
Doesn't matter.

2. Is it absolutely imperitive to salvation that Christ must be Divine, and why?
The 'mad or bad' again.

3. By extension, can a non-Christian unfamiliar or otherwise legitimately unknowing find salvation in the eyes of G-d?
Yes.

Thomas
 
inhumility said:
Hi my friends on the forum!
Three out of the five Christian fundamentals i.e.:
1. The divinity of Jesus
2. The redemption
3. The belief that Jesus died (on Cross)
The three in fact rest on the third, JesusYeshuaIssa’s cursed death on Cross, which never happened. So if it is proved that Jesus never died on Cross, then the whole edifice of Christianity, erected by Paul in Rome falls to the ground. He himself is a witness to it. Had he been a god he had no logical reason to relate it to Sign of Jonah? He pegged it with Jonah and Jonah was not a god. Though Jonah survived miraculously in the belly of the fish being alive there, yet he did not become a god; then how come Jesus who as per the Christians did a lower fulfillment of the sign by dieing on Cross instead of living on the Cross, could become a god? Any reason my friends, any logic! Logic and witnessing of Jesus relating the sign with Jonah is to be accepted humbly indeed.
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi – a peaceful faith in Islam
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You are horribly misinformed, my friend, and are showing your ignorance about the Christian faith. Jesus didn't die to become God, He already was God in the flesh, as John 1:14 states. And the belief that Jesus died and rose from the dead and that the blood of Jesus cleanses us is not only an assertion of Paul, but of other disciples as well:

"Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead," - I Peter 1:2-3

"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." - I John 1:7

"And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen." - Revelation 1:5-6 (John)

The comparasion with Jonah is that it is a picture of the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ, that just as Jonah spent three days in the belly of the whale, Jesus would spend three days in the belly of the earth. Scriptures in the Old Testament point to types of Christ, e.g. Abraham sacrifice of Issac, Joseph cast in a pit and raised back up and sold for a certain amount of silver coins, etc. You greatly err, my friend, not knowing the scriptures of which you speak.
 
This fact that fact. We must remember to discuss and examine these points from a persepective of increased awarenesses of others belief systems.

inhumility, your thoughts are from outside of Christianity, your suppositions are of your belief system as Ahmadi is an Islamic Sect not a Christian Denomination. I for one appreciate your response and can offer that you can state it as your belief system or your thoughts here...and as fact maybe over on the Islam board...

Dondi, in the same respect you offered up a request for a polite discussion and as we all interpret scripture differently your view and understanding may differ from others...

But inhumilities point causes me to beg the question...what if.
inhumility said:
So if it is proved that Jesus never died on Cross, then the whole edifice of Christianity, erected by Paul in Rome falls to the ground.
Click to expand...
What if these five fundamentals were at some point in time proved without a shadow of a doubt to each and every one of us not to be true.

I'm not saying or implying they are....but what if...what would that do...would it destroy the church as we know it, would it destroy our belief system...or would the church and our faith be strong enough to survive it?

From where I stand and my understanding, I see the church and much of the flock having issues.... but I don't see it collapsing...I see a new awakening of the essence of scripture and the underlying truths encased in the stories. I see many people today being able to stand up through any such event, unscathed in their faith...
 
wil said:
This fact that fact. We must remember to discuss and examine these points from a persepective of increased awarenesses of others belief systems.

inhumility, your thoughts are from outside of Christianity, your suppositions are of your belief system as Ahmadi is an Islamic Sect not a Christian Denomination. I for one appreciate your response and can offer that you can state it as your belief system or your thoughts here...and as fact maybe over on the Islam board...

Dondi, in the same respect you offered up a request for a polite discussion and as we all interpret scripture differently your view and understanding may differ from others...

But inhumilities point causes me to beg the question...what if. What if these five fundamentals were at some point in time proved without a shadow of a doubt to each and every one of us not to be true.

I'm not saying or implying they are....but what if...what would that do...would it destroy the church as we know it, would it destroy our belief system...or would the church and our faith be strong enough to survive it?

From where I stand and my understanding, I see the church and much of the flock having issues.... but I don't see it collapsing...I see a new awakening of the essence of scripture and the underlying truths encased in the stories. I see many people today being able to stand up through any such event, unscathed in their faith...
Click to expand...

Absolutely brilliant Wil.
 
wil said:
This fact that fact. We must remember to discuss and examine these points from a persepective of increased awarenesses of others belief systems.

inhumility, your thoughts are from outside of Christianity, your suppositions are of your belief system as Ahmadi is an Islamic Sect not a Christian Denomination. I for one appreciate your response and can offer that you can state it as your belief system or your thoughts here...and as fact maybe over on the Islam board...

Dondi, in the same respect you offered up a request for a polite discussion and as we all interpret scripture differently your view and understanding may differ from others...

But inhumilities point causes me to beg the question...what if. What if these five fundamentals were at some point in time proved without a shadow of a doubt to each and every one of us not to be true.

I'm not saying or implying they are....but what if...what would that do...would it destroy the church as we know it, would it destroy our belief system...or would the church and our faith be strong enough to survive it?

From where I stand and my understanding, I see the church and much of the flock having issues.... but I don't see it collapsing...I see a new awakening of the essence of scripture and the underlying truths encased in the stories. I see many people today being able to stand up through any such event, unscathed in their faith...
Click to expand...


If there was beyond a shadow of a doubt that Christ isn't who He said He was and didn't rise from the dead, then Christianity is false and Jesus a false prophet. By that token, I certainly wouldn't convert to Islam anyway, for Jesus would be a false prophet. I'd more likely go the other way...to Judaism.
 
wil said:
This fact that fact. We must remember to discuss and examine these points from a persepective of increased awarenesses of others belief systems.

inhumility, your thoughts are from outside of Christianity, your suppositions are of your belief system as Ahmadi is an Islamic Sect not a Christian Denomination. I for one appreciate your response and can offer that you can state it as your belief system or your thoughts here...and as fact maybe over on the Islam board...

Dondi, in the same respect you offered up a request for a polite discussion and as we all interpret scripture differently your view and understanding may differ from others...

But inhumilities point causes me to beg the question...what if. What if these five fundamentals were at some point in time proved without a shadow of a doubt to each and every one of us not to be true.

I'm not saying or implying they are....but what if...what would that do...would it destroy the church as we know it, would it destroy our belief system...or would the church and our faith be strong enough to survive it?

From where I stand and my understanding, I see the church and much of the flock having issues.... but I don't see it collapsing...I see a new awakening of the essence of scripture and the underlying truths encased in the stories. I see many people today being able to stand up through any such event, unscathed in their faith...
Click to expand...

Indeed, the entire stature of Christianity and "Islam" would be looked upon as false. The world as we know it would shatter. And the Jews would be both envied and hated for what they have, and the rest of the world has not. No church or Mosque would stand for long. NT Scripture, Surah and the guidance or "laws" post Old testament, would mean nothing. Most would abandon the "false teachings" they've been given. Secularism would rise as the "new religion".

Here is also what would happen: Those religious "holdouts" would be hounded down and exterminated as radicals. Entire cities would be wiped off the face of the earth, in order to elliminate the few (there would be no morality concerns, as "vermin" are the anxst of Deus ex Machina.

Finally, Israel would be targeted, simply for what it stands for. (A God in control, and a people who worship that God).

Final count down...

Gee, this all seems strangely familiar...don't you think?

v/r

Joshua
 
Kindest Regards, wil!
wil said:
This fact that fact. We must remember to discuss and examine these points from a persepective of increased awarenesses of others belief systems.

inhumility, your thoughts are from outside of Christianity, your suppositions are of your belief system as Ahmadi is an Islamic Sect not a Christian Denomination. I for one appreciate your response and can offer that you can state it as your belief system or your thoughts here...and as fact maybe over on the Islam board...

Dondi, in the same respect you offered up a request for a polite discussion and as we all interpret scripture differently your view and understanding may differ from others...

But inhumilities point causes me to beg the question...what if. What if these five fundamentals were at some point in time proved without a shadow of a doubt to each and every one of us not to be true.

I'm not saying or implying they are....but what if...what would that do...would it destroy the church as we know it, would it destroy our belief system...or would the church and our faith be strong enough to survive it?

From where I stand and my understanding, I see the church and much of the flock having issues.... but I don't see it collapsing...I see a new awakening of the essence of scripture and the underlying truths encased in the stories. I see many people today being able to stand up through any such event, unscathed in their faith...
Click to expand...
You raise excellent points. This is probably a good portion of my vacillation on the subject...I want to believe as the orthodoxy maintains...yet I have these nagging doubts that reverberate what wil is alluding to here. I have tried praying them away, I have tried logically analyzing them away, I have tried everything I can think of to dismiss these doubts. Yet they persist.

I accept that at this stage in my faith walk there must be some lesson I need to learn, but I am really struggling with understanding quite what that lesson is.
 
Kindest Regards, Q!
Quahom1 said:
Indeed, the entire stature of Christianity and "Islam" would be looked upon as false. The world as we know it would shatter. And the Jews would be both envied and hated for what they have, and the rest of the world has not. No church or Mosque would stand for long. NT Scripture, Surah and the guidance or "laws" post Old testament, would mean nothing. Most would abandon the "false teachings" they've been given. Secularism would rise as the "new religion".

Here is also what would happen: Those religious "holdouts" would be hounded down and exterminated as radicals. Entire cities would be wiped off the face of the earth, in order to elliminate the few (there would be no morality concerns, as "vermin" are the anxst of Deus ex Machina.

Finally, Israel would be targeted, simply for what it stands for. (A God in control, and a people who worship that God).

Final count down...

Gee, this all seems strangely familiar...don't you think?
Click to expand...
You really think so?

I mean, I am usually able to follow when you point like this, but for some reason I am not seeing it. It is like there is a wall I cannot penetrate on this. It is spooky to me, I am usually able to see ahead fairly well, but on this I draw a blank.
 
juantoo3 said:
Kindest Regards, Q!

You really think so?

I mean, I am usually able to follow when you point like this, but for some reason I am not seeing it. It is like there is a wall I cannot penetrate on this. It is spooky to me, I am usually able to see ahead fairly well, but on this I draw a blank.
Click to expand...

Sorry, forgot to add:

Hitler, "Mein Kampf" 1925. Now does it sound familiar?
 
There are also the Essential Doctrines of Christianity.

1. The Deity of Christ.

Agree. Where we often differ is the continual begetting of the only begotten.

2. Salvation by Grace.

Agree. Such an awesome thing when you know it was you that pushed the pendelum and you that is standing in the way but when it swings back it misses....

3. The Resurrection of Christ.

Agree. Of course I'd probably have asked to feel the holes in his hands too.

4. The Gospel.

Agree, these books bring some very good news.
 
Quahom1 said:
Now Chris, isn't that a general speculation of "fundamentalists"? Or are you thinking about certain of the fundamental faiths, and grouping all together...? :eek:
Click to expand...

I'm thinking about my own upbringing, all the people I know, and the ones I've met online in the last seven years of doing this BB thing.

Let me tell you something Josh. I know you're a warrior, and I know you have a generally conservative bent. But you're also a Catholic (pretty much), and you're a patriot. Fundamentalism and fundamentalists are more dangerous than I think you've imagined. They may be your political allies on the right, but they have their own agenda. If that dominionist agenda were ever allowed to come to fruition you wouldn't fair any better than a homosexual Pagan. So think about it. The RCC has come out clearly in opposition to fundamentalism, calling it dangerous and conducive to "intellectual suicide." That's pretty strong language!

I'm not giving the fundies a break. You all can do whatever you want. I have respect for all human beings, but I don't have to respect ignorant, destructive ideas. We aren't living in a vacuum. Everything is political.

Chris
 
China Cat Sunflower said:
I'm thinking about my own upbringing, all the people I know, and the ones I've met online in the last seven years of doing this BB thing.

Let me tell you something Josh. I know you're a warrior, and I know you have a generally conservative bent. But you're also a Catholic (pretty much), and you're a patriot. Fundamentalism and fundamentalists are more dangerous than I think you've imagined. They may be your political allies on the right, but they have their own agenda. If that dominionist agenda were ever allowed to come to fruition you wouldn't fair any better than a homosexual Pagan. So think about it. The RCC has come out clearly in opposition to fundamentalism, calling it dangerous and conducive to "intellectual suicide." That's pretty strong language!

I'm not giving the fundies a break. You all can do whatever you want. I have respect for all human beings, but I don't have to respect ignorant, destructive ideas. We aren't living in a vacuum. Everything is political.

Chris
Click to expand...

shoot, my dad just said the same thing...you sure you ain't part of Union 636? :eek:

If what you say is true, then there are problems with the Christian faith. However, Chris, there are 1.2 billion CATHOLICS and only 300 million Fundamentelist types in the world. One way of believing is as old as the hills, and the other, is well rather new.
 
Quahom1 said:
Message was not for you to begin with sir. And Hitler was alot of things, but Christian isn't one of them.

I think this is one time where you should sit back and watch/read awhile, before engaging in dialogue...

v/r

Joshua
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True I read the work which he put his name to quite a while ago (actual authorship in question), and true their are arguments all over the board with Christians trying to disown him. I merely provided a link to one source of information of many which put him squarely in the theological camp. Many Christians over the ages have committed atrocities in the name of G-d. Not saying they aren't any more wacked than the suicide bombers for Allah but it is out there.

Now if in this public forum you are indicating that others cannot respond to your comments and are required to simply sit back... you'll continue to be displeased. Your analogy was questioned. And in my book it still is, do you refute the comments in the link I provided, from which I quoted?
 
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