Kindest Regards, China Cat!
Absolutely awesome thread. I would say currently the frontrunner for '07.
How does a person believe? What does belief entail? Can belief be founded on blind faith, or does one have to have something to go on first to believe? Can I just say, "I believe" without actually believing? Is that how it's supposed to work?
I see not only yourself, but others here as well expressing similar concepts based on different models. Like you, I feel I need "evidence" to confirm before I can honestly (to myself if no other) impute "belief." Where we perhaps differ is in what constitutes evidence.
I can't believe in something just because I'd like to, I have to actually be convinced.
In these terms we agree. I cannot speak for others, I have seen things in my life that make me pause and consider, and ultimately believe. Some of these are "mundane miracles" as you put it, some are fortuitous coincidences, synchronicities, answered (and unanswered) prayers and such that constitute in my experience "evidence."
Yeah, that's my programming: If you believe God won't hurt you. So, I never did believe, but I pretended because I was afraid, and because it was the socially acceptable thing. But then later, when I was a young adult I went through a serious crisis. I had the conversion experience I'd been waiting for as a kid. But when the crisis was resolved I slipped away. So that makes me think that it's all about emotional needs. I mean, I believed for all I was worth when I needed something to rescue me from myself, but when things equalized I realized what my real motivation was.
I can relate to this pretty well, although I don't recall having the "If you believe God won't hurt you" thing pounded into me. It was there, in the background, and certainly factored (factors) into my reasoning, but it is not the primary motivation.
But I can't shake the feeling that there's something more to it. So I'm wondering what the real skinny is with belief. I'm wondering how one gets past the programming, the surface thing where you're feeding an emotional need, and how to find the bottom line of the thing.
Oh, absolutely! I can intimately relate to these words!
I'm pretty sure you have seen my rationale before...if G-d is real, He can handle being questioned. Those who insist that questioning G-d is heretical have some (likely political) agenda they are trying to hide. If by the term "belief" they really mean "do as we tell you to, think like we tell you to think," I do not see the value in that. (How's that for traditional American independent reasoning?)
There is a logical fallacy, I forget the name, that reminds me of the story of the lemmings...(allow me to mix metaphors here, please)...if everyone is jumping off a bridge, will you jump too? Just because "everyone" says "this is what and how you must believe" does not make it truth...certainly not in the objective sense of the word. It might (or might not) constitute a relative truth for a particular people...but that in no way imparts objective reality for the whole universe. G-d IS, I am confident enough in my experience and in circumstantial evidence, to believe. Yet, like yourself, I do have enough inconclusive questions surrounding the nature of Jesus to cast doubt on my mental association of him, of where he figures into the process. As a teacher, a "wayshower" as wil puts it, Jesus certainly imparts great wisdom. As does Guatama Buddha, as does Moses, as does Solomon, as does many, many others throughout the history of the world's religions. Of course, without certain claims unique to Christianity, specifically the value and merit of his sacrifice and equally the value and merit of his resurrection, Christianity is "just" another religion. So I do struggle, because in my mind if Christianity is "just" another religion, then why should I put up with all of the hypocrits that are Christians in name only? Why should I retain all of these essentially worthless trappings? Why not return to an elemental religious spirituality such as shamanism? At least there is an honesty in the simplicity of shamanism that Christianity lost so very long ago. And somewhat like virginity, Christianity cannot regain that simplistic honesty and has no desire to do so.
For a long time I went around spouting axioms and spiritual-ish plattitudes. But then I started thinking, wondering what I really knew and didn't know, wondering about the value of subscribing to, and pretty much mindlessly regurgitating other people's ideas, wondering what my own motivations and needs were.
We all need to start somewhere. Taking others' thoughts as one's own is not inherently a bad thing. It is what you do with those thoughts that matters. I "believe" even Paul alluded to this in the book of Romans I so often quote, and elsewhere, about guaging all things and holding fast to that which proves itself good.
There seems to be a large component of social engineering within belief systems. A critical look at a lot of the nice sounding spiritual stuff that really appeals to people shows that there is very often a social control motive underlying the emotional carrot. This is quite apparent if one studies the Tao te Ching, for instance. Don't get me wrong, I love the Tao, but it was written to be philosophical advice on how to rule people and create a cohesive and passive citizenry.
Absolutely. I have addressed this very subject so many times here. But it is easy to lose sight of something very important...as William James pointed out...there are two components to what we today term "religion," the institutional and the personal. Here in this forum we are free to express our personal search and how it develops, many of us through the stained glass of our institutions. But the institutions are those that drive civilizations, societies and cultures. I have seen you point to this before, that you felt "christian" only because you were born into it. To a great degree, you are correct. This society, and a great deal of the Western world, is culturally and socially Christian. That does not confer all of the rights of the Christian faith on every member of society, it simply means that Christian values form the legal and educational framework that supports the social infrastructure. Likewise in India, China and the Middle East. Africa it seems has a lot of Christian and Muslim influx, but the underlying foundation is still tribal and animist. South America again has a Christian influx, but is fundamentally animist.
I guess a part of me is like Toto in the Wizard of Oz, always cynically seeking to peek behind the curtain and expose the real cause and motives behind things.
I love this...
...I can soooo relate.
Bumper sticker: Jesus save me from your followers.
Good point wil! It does seem to relate to that famous quote from Gandhi about liking Christ but not Christians.
I do think it is overly simplistic though, and in that sense inaccurate. A genuine follower of the path of Jesus I would have no issues with, this would be someone like Mother Theresa. I *do* have issues with those who claim the name of Jesus while bulldozing a contrary path.
It's kind of like someone saying that as long as you aren't afraid of the bear it won't hurt you. The bear can sense fear. Well, how do I get to the point where I'm actually not afraid? If I keep thinking, "I won't show fear, I won't show fear, I won't show fear" will I ever get to the point where I'm actually not afraid? And is the bear fooled in the meanwhile? So, what about saying, " I believe, I believe, God won't hurt me if I believe, so I believe...no, I really do." And in the process perhaps one shuts off their mind to anything which might distract from the desire to believe. But wouldn't that compartmentalization leave one without the necessary intellectual resources to effect a genuine belief?
Good point. In the words of that famous philosopher Nike, "just do it." Of course, I say that now with vivid recall of how difficult it was for me to learn to ride a bicycle. "Just do it" requires a faith in oneself, a belief in one's abilities. Once we are at a stage in our development to accept that G-d exists unconditionally, then "just do it" makes sense. Until that point, as a child with wavering faith in my abilities, "just do it" might as well mean "forget about it" or "let someone else do it for you." Will G-d or the bear know you are trying to talk yourself into belief, probably. Neither will be deceived.
Having said that, everyone must begin somewhere. Where else, but in "telling ourselves," even if by the words of others, what to believe. Once upon a time, "we" all believed the earth was flat. We believed because the authorities we trusted told us so. It was accepted and paradigmatic, a given. No thoughts developed that contradicted the established norm.
It was not until Copernicus, with a little later help from Gallileo, that "heretical" challenge was offered to this given set of parameters, yet still the populace believed as they were led. It took a group of Portuguese mariners to circumscribe the globe to prove to the western world that it was indeed round. So today we operate from a new paradigm, and no thought is developed that contradicts this newly established norm.
Yet, satellite imagery tells us the earth is pear shaped...how will this affect our future paradigms? Obviously this is all example...I could as easily point to the development of electricity, relativity, even the "evolution" if you will of the Christian faith.
I personally think that there is an underlying rationale to the universe. My observation is that all life manifests the various archetypal structures and relationships which are reflections the "personality" of that Logos, if you will. I'm kind of a neo-epicurean in that I think that meaning comes from celebrating the ordinary adventure of life, love, family, friends, and nature in all its finery. For myself, I'm working at releasing all the tangled up programming that prevents me from relaxing into the now. Beyond that I hold no philosophy.
If it works for you, great! If it helps you relate to your family, tribe and outsiders, and even to G-d, then who am I to challenge this? If it got you into jail, or compelled you to beat your wife, or otherwise failed to create a loving spirit in you, then I might see things a bit differently and suggest it may not be working for you.
Don't you think God knows the difference between simply professing belief and actually believing?
Of course He does.
O.K, but does one need to believe in Jesus to do that kind of stuff? I like the Golden Rule thing too, but it's not something that I need Jesus to recommend to me, or anything that requires me to believe. It just makes sense from a purely selfish point of view.
I think everything is mundanely miraculous as well, which implies that since everything is sacred, nothing is extraordinarily sacred. Don't need Jesus for that either.
In some sense I can relate, but I am not fully convinced either way. True, I don't need Jesus for "the Golden Rule thing," but I had to learn it somewhere. If not Jesus, who? In a Christian culture, it seems only natural it would come from Jesus. Had I been born Chinese, likely it would be Guatama. Had I been born Iraqi, likely it would have been Mohammed. Had I been born Jewish, likely it would have been Moses. But it is a lesson, an elemental lesson, a fundamental lesson, a rudimentary lesson all of us need to learn. To have faith enough in our abilities to believe, to the point we can "just do it."
Don't know if I helped you, but I found this exercise cathartic. I thank you for that.
