Will it count?

[Silas]

So you hate when folks twist yet in the same breath you begin your twisting? What version are you reading that doesn't start that sentence with "If"?

It is not a statement but a supposition and is not even half of that line. The evil here is not a statement of evil, but a contemplation of since man is less than perfect yet provides for his children (wouldn't provide a snake instead of fish, a rock instead of bread) it is all an example of the difference between man and G-d and that G-d will give us what we ask for.

That's cute! Lets look at that scripture again:

"If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!"

Sounds to me, and every other Christian in the world, both past and present, that Jesus is saying that though we are evil and could give good gifts to our own children, the Father will give better. But, we could be wrong. How do you Mark 7:20...And he said, “What comes out of a person is what defiles him. For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person.”

Have you ever looked in lust, stolen anything, regardless of the price or size, had envious thoughts, pride, foolishness, deciet, etc? If so, you are like every other man apart from Christ, friend. In God's pure and holy eyes, you are evil. There is a Savior if you want Him though!

 

[Silas]

That's even easier to answer than the first one about Jacob and Esua.

That which is not perfect, is flawed hence evil (absent of perfection). It doesn't mean we do not have any degree of good in us, merely that we fall way short of God's plan of perfection. We are out of balance, but even so we know to give what good we can to others (as we understand it). This particular scripture identifies what we do for our children I believe...

If the Human father and child is an imperfect simily (example), of the relationship between the Father and us, what Jesus is saying that, "if in your flawed state you know enough to provide for your children, how much better the Father provides for you..."

v/r

Joshua

I remember listening to a Paul Washer sermon. He mentioned that he no longer likes to used the word "sinful." He said that the word has become the norm and almost a cheshe'. People have gotten used to saying "I am a sinner" without feeling the weight of what that means. Because of all of that, he said that he now uses the word "evil" to stress what sin is. He mentioned that it makes people mad! You know what, Q? He's so right! Everything you said in this reply proves that. Smile, you just proved Christians right.

Way to go!

 

[wil]

"If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!"

Sounds to me, and every other Christian in the world, both past and present, that Jesus is saying that though we are evil and could give good gifts to our own children, the Father will give better. But, we could be wrong.

And so could I but I believe Malachi said it in a vision of G-d and Paul said it quoting the scripture...but Jesus is not quoted as having said it...

 

[Quahom1]

I remember listening to a Paul Washer sermon. He mentioned that he no longer likes to used the word "sinful." He said that the word has become the norm and almost a cheshe'. People have gotten used to saying "I am a sinner" without feeling the weight of what that means. Because of all of that, he said that he now uses the word "evil" to stress what sin is. He mentioned that it makes people mad! You know what, Q? He's so right! Everything you said in this reply proves that. Smile, you just proved Christians right.

Way to go!

I don't see how my explanation could prove Washer correct, since I'm not angry about anything. "Sinful", "evil", falling short of the Glory of God is all the same to me. It simply means we miss the mark, without guidance from the Creator. Can't fix it on our own, and can't get their from here.

Second of all I didn't realize I was considered (apparently by your last statement), not part of the "in crowd" when it comes to Christians...I was certain that is between me and God...

Indeed, I should think that I want no part of that particular "in crowd". I'm better off with the tax collectors, prostitutes, sailors and common folk...I get a much better view of the church from the last pew...

v/r

Joshua

 

[wil]

And so could I but I believe Malachi said it in a vision of G-d and Paul said it quoting the scripture...but Jesus is not quoted as having said it...

oops flippin back and forth between the other quote and this one and I misquoted...

 

[cavalier]

wil

You did.

No I didnt.

I was hoping this would run and run.

 

[cavalier]

You say, "What if I'm afraid of Hell?" Then God's reply is an invite to look to Him.

Ok, but would I hear that invitation?
Maybe I just did.

 

[Quahom1]

Ok, but would I hear that invitation?
Maybe I just did.

I wouldn't presume to be the voice of God Cav. I think we know inside when we are being invited, whether it is because of an outside source, or something within. And I know it is not a feeling of uneasiness either way, but rather an expectation, hope or a curiosity we feel.

v/r

Joshua

 

[cavalier]

I wouldn't presume to be the voice of God Cav.

lol

 

[wil]

Originally Posted by Quahom1
I wouldn't presume to be the voice of God Cav.

lol

Two things...one a story I've heard told about people sitting in church or a chapel and hearing the calling to become a minsister...the suggestion is to look around and insure He isn't speaking to someone around you.

Second, it is only you that can determine if it is that still small voice you are hearing...but if you think you are hearing it...listen. We often don't and regret it later.

 

[Star Sarellia]

Hi Cavalier,

I am not sure if you question was purely hypothetical or not, but if it isn't.. and you are yourself in considerable fear of hell.. my heart truely goes out to you.

I apologise if this is presumptious of me, but on another thread, I noticed you wrote on demons and it made me consider the question may be from a personal view. I found a interesting link that might be able to give you some insight and offers some scripture to read to help overcome this fear.

Should Believers Fear Going to Hell?

 

[cavalier]

Hi Cavalier,

I am not sure if you question was purely hypothetical or not, but if it isn't.. and you are yourself in considerable fear of hell.. my heart truely goes out to you.

I apologise if this is presumptious of me, but on another thread, I noticed you wrote on demons and it made me consider the question may be from a personal view. I found a interesting link that might be able to give you some insight and offers some scripture to read to help overcome this fear.

Should Believers Fear Going to Hell?

Thanks for the question, and for the link, no apologies are necessary.
I was brought up in a bretheren household, and taken to church at least twice a week, while there I heard enough fire and brimstone sermons to put a fear of hell into me. Even now, years later, it remains as a nagging doubt. That said, I couldn't claim to have a considerable fear of hell, and certainly not of demons.
Thanks again though

 

[Dor]

Silas ... Disregard that bit about Job. Read the New Testament, as St Paul says, 'a better way', specifically the Gospels, and count the number of times Jesus tells his people to not to fear, but to have faith in the love of God.

Matthew 4:40
"And he said to them: Why are you fearful? have you not faith yet?"

Luke 1:74
"That being delivered from the hand of our enemies, we may serve him without fear."

I have faith, although I am not perfect, and I serve Him, although not perfectly, and I know the enemy still has his greasy fingers in my entrails, because I am human, but I don't fear that, either ... I just keep rollin' along ...

Thomas

The part I highlighted is the imprtant part of what you said to me. You all argue with Silas that people are not supposed to fear. Well people dang sure need to fear him. The only ones who should not are HIS PEOPLE.

 

[Dor]

I say G-d, Jesus, and many philospophers....gurus see us as inherently good. It depends who is doing the picking and choosing...of expert witnesses...and of scripture....as you indicated scripture can be twisted any way one wants it to be.

You know good and well that God thought we were very good.
You also know since the fall that he doesnt till we accept him.

You love to argue with Silas about if we are inherently good or evil.
Well take a little test and find a 18 month- 4 yr old and watch them.
They will show you the most love and affection in the world.
Then they will turn around and just take anything they want, hit someone if they get mad, lie to avoid trouble, etc etc.

 

[Silas]

Where's the standing ovation icon when you need it? That was a great post, Dor!!

 

[Thomas]

D'you know what I think we really fear?

I think we fear, deep in our guts, that God will look at us and say "No. Not you." We are none of us good, because we are convinced deep down we are none of us good enough.

So we take consolation in the comforts of the flesh.

We inebriate our sense in sin.

+++

I'm not arguing against you, I'm arguing that you do not realise what you cause in others – we don't get the whole picture, we only get the terrifying bit. We get the bit that makes us want to turn away. Or look in horror, like a rabbit in the headlight of an oncoming truck.

Jesus says 'fear not' and you can be my people.
You say, you're not his people and you'd better be frightened.

Which, d'you think should people follow:
Jesus, who offers love, and a way out
or you, who offer fear, and more of the same?

I suggest that if 'fear of God' was the way to go, then Jesus had the 'means, method and opportunity' to put the fear of God into people in no uncertain terms ... instead of healing, all he need do is inflict ... A prophet walking round, striking people blind, deaf, dumb ... and dead ... would have packed the Temple in Jerusalem to bursting point. Churches always fill up when the going is bad.

I'm not arguing against the 'fear of God' ... when I am alone with God I have sensed it palpably ... fear, awe, respect ... but always the love more ... But to me it's just not the way to bring sheep into the fold ... frightened things tend to run away ...

From where I'm standing, you offer me the fear of God, but no succour, no safety, no forgiveness, no mercy, no tenderness, no love ... no home.

... your image of God frightens us, for all the wrong reasons...

That's all I'm trying to say.

Thomas

 

[lunamoth]

Hey Thomas, thank you. That captures my feelings about this as well.

luna

 

[Silas]

D'you know what I think we really fear?

I think we fear, deep in our guts, that God will look at us and say "No. Not you." We are none of us good, because we are convinced deep down we are none of us good enough.

Are you saying that you are good enough to merit God's good favor?

 

[Thomas]

Hi Silas –

Are you saying that you are good enough to merit God's good favor?

No. I'm saying I am not good enough to merit God's favour, but hope that my faith is strong enough to merit His mercy ... I would say however there are those who are favoured of God by their goodness, as Jesus told us in the Gospels, the publican in the temple, the widow, both who were 'justified' in the sight of God, and the pious Simeon and the prophetess Anna when the Holy Child was presented at the Temple. (Luke 2:25-38).

I think moreover there are those who are favoured of God, who have never even heard His name, but know Him in their hearts, because they love the idea of Him.

I fear me a lot more than I fear God ... I fear the Adversary might sift me, and find my faith wanting (Luke 22:31) ... and Christ will have died in vain.

Thomas

 

[cavalier]

D'you know what I think we really fear?

I think we fear, deep in our guts, that God will look at us and say "No. Not you." We are none of us good, because we are convinced deep down we are none of us good enough.

So we take consolation in the comforts of the flesh.

We inebriate our sense in sin.

+++

I'm not arguing against you, I'm arguing that you do not realise what you cause in others – we don't get the whole picture, we only get the terrifying bit. We get the bit that makes us want to turn away. Or look in horror, like a rabbit in the headlight of an oncoming truck.

Jesus says 'fear not' and you can be my people.
You say, you're not his people and you'd better be frightened.

Which, d'you think should people follow:
Jesus, who offers love, and a way out
or you, who offer fear, and more of the same?

I suggest that if 'fear of God' was the way to go, then Jesus had the 'means, method and opportunity' to put the fear of God into people in no uncertain terms ... instead of healing, all he need do is inflict ... A prophet walking round, striking people blind, deaf, dumb ... and dead ... would have packed the Temple in Jerusalem to bursting point. Churches always fill up when the going is bad.

I'm not arguing against the 'fear of God' ... when I am alone with God I have sensed it palpably ... fear, awe, respect ... but always the love more ... But to me it's just not the way to bring sheep into the fold ... frightened things tend to run away ...

From where I'm standing, you offer me the fear of God, but no succour, no safety, no forgiveness, no mercy, no tenderness, no love ... no home.

... your image of God frightens us, for all the wrong reasons...

That's all I'm trying to say.

Thomas

Hey Thomas
I like what you've written here, but I have a nagging doubt that hope you can allay. With many of his parables ending with the warning that if we are not on the right path we will be thrown out to the place where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, it seems to me that Jesus did try to put a fear of God into non-believers.