Will it count?

[Faithfulservant]

D'you know what I think we really fear?

I think we fear, deep in our guts, that God will look at us and say "No. Not you." We are none of us good, because we are convinced deep down we are none of us good enough.


Thomas

Just to expound on what cavalier said.. Jesus said that not all that call Him Lord will enter through the gate... He will say begone you workers of iniquity.. So apparently there are some that thought they were saved but arent. That should certainly make one question whether they are in the faith or not.. Maybe the church that He says He will vomit out of His mouth.

 

[lunamoth]

Just to expound on what cavalier said.. Jesus said that not all that call Him Lord will enter through the gate... He will say begone you workers of iniquity.. So apparently there are some that thought they were saved but arent. That should certainly make one question whether they are in the faith or not.. Maybe the church that He says He will vomit out of His mouth.

That's a very good point Faithful. I was just reviewing all the quotes about weeping and gnashing of teeth because of this thread and the one about wrath, and one very prominent theme is how those who think they are saved are the ones left gnashing.


Here we find one on the 'outside' deemed more worthy (by faith) than the subjects of the kingdom!

8The centurion replied, "Lord, I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. But just say the word, and my servant will be healed. 9For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, 'Go,' and he goes; and that one, 'Come,' and he comes. I say to my servant, 'Do this,' and he does it."

10When Jesus heard this, he was astonished and said to those following him, "I tell you the truth, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith. 11I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. 12But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

13Then Jesus said to the centurion, "Go! It will be done just as you believed it would." And his servant was healed at that very hour. (Matt 8)

Here a man who was not wearing his wedding clothes is cast out...how do we know that those wedding clothes represent?

8"Then he said to his servants, 'The wedding banquet is ready, but those I invited did not deserve to come. 9Go to the street corners and invite to the banquet anyone you find.' 10So the servants went out into the streets and gathered all the people they could find, both good and bad, and the wedding hall was filled with guests.

11"But when the king came in to see the guests, he noticed a man there who was not wearing wedding clothes. 12'Friend,' he asked, 'how did you get in here without wedding clothes?' The man was speechless.

13"Then the king told the attendants, 'Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'

14"For many are invited, but few are chosen." (Matt 22)

In this one the faithful and wise servant must do something to keep from being 'placed with the hypocrites.' This seems like judgement is based upon kindness and fairness, rather than just faith.

45"Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of the servants in his household to give them their food at the proper time? 46It will be good for that servant whose master finds him doing so when he returns. 47I tell you the truth, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 48But suppose that servant is wicked and says to himself, 'My master is staying away a long time,' 49and he then begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards. 50The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. 51He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
(Matt 24)

And then perhaps the best known such parable, the sheep and the goats. In this one it seems very clear that judgement is based upon how we treat each other:

31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." (Matt 25)

For those who know God, the place where God is not is terrible indeed. We can see that here on earth anyplace where there is not love and compassion. But I think these parables do warn us that the KOG is not what we expect it to be by conventional wisdom. We do know that we are to love each other, love our neighbors, brothers, and enemies. In the first parable above we see the importance of humility. In the last two we see the importance of being compassionate as our Lord is compassionate. And the second one is the most mysterious to me...to me it's not like there's some kind of 'trick' that we can't or don't know...perhaps in the first century (and probably to scholars today) the significance of the wedding clothes is much easier to understand. I've heard it suggested that it was custom for the host to provide the wedding clothes, so the guest must have refused something important that the host offered, but what exactly could that be?

But, I don't think these parables are about hell in the afterlife. I think they all refer to life now when we don't accept Christ's invitation to live differently, in faith and love.

 

[Dor]

... your image of God frightens us, for all the wrong reasons...

Thomas

I am sorry you feel this way.
Now on to upset or piss people off.
If me or Silas or anyone on this forum can scare you then you need to grab a bible and go to your room and spend alot of alone time.
Not that I would question anyones salvation or what not but I guarantee you no one on here can cause me fear. Jesus told us who to fear.

Luke12:4 "And I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. 5 But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, fear Him!

 

[Faithfulservant]

I have to always question it in myself luna.. if I didnt I would be foolish. I literally pray that Christ finds me worthy. I can see the difference in my life because of Christ recreating me. I could go into detail and maybe I should because the only test we have of each other is whether we see the change that Christ does to us.

Heres my list.

I did drugs... not just pot.. for a few years I was actually doing crank which is one of the hardest things to get out of..

I cursed worse than a sailor. the F word was every other word out of my mouth.. now dont tell dor this because he IS a sailor and has that very tendency and I am getting on him all the time.

I was addicted to porn because of early sexualization when I was a child.

I was a compulsive liar.

I was a thief.

I was horrible to my mother I stole from my mother.

I was hard core into astrology and new age channeling was an interest.

I was a true blue gossiper and back biter.

I told people that I believed all paths lead to God.

I look at this list now this was me 15 years ago.. I cant believe that it was me... because I would never think about doing ANY of these things in all good conscience. not even that pen from work. I feel so far removed from that person... and I totally acknowledge that it was ALL Jesus Christ and none of it was ME. I am humbled and seriously this is the ONLY proof I can give to any person who says to me.. "how do you know you are saved." When I was born again I literally became a new creation.. He created a clean heart and a clean mind and He is gradually removing all those horrible sins that I committed so easlily every day. Oh I know He has so much further to go.. every day I do things that I have to repent for and Im asking Him to make me into who He wants me to be.. When I meet Him face to face I want to be like Him and I know thats what He does in His when we make that choice Him or the world.

Thats how I know that I am on the right path. Thats why I exhort to others that call Him Lord.. Do you see the change He is making in your life... if you dont you need to ask Why and get right with Him while you still can.

 

[lunamoth]

I have to always question it in myself luna.. if I didnt I would be foolish. I literally pray that Christ finds me worthy. I can see the difference in my life because of Christ recreating me. I could go into detail and maybe I should because the only test we have of each other is whether we see the change that Christ does to us.

Heres my list.

I did drugs... not just pot.. for a few years I was actually doing crank which is one of the hardest things to get out of..

I cursed worse than a sailor. the F word was every other word out of my mouth.. now dont tell dor this because he IS a sailor and has that very tendency and I am getting on him all the time.

I was addicted to porn because of early sexualization when I was a child.

I was a compulsive liar.

I was a thief.

I was horrible to my mother I stole from my mother.

I was hard core into astrology and new age channeling was an interest.

I was a true blue gossiper and back biter.

I told people that I believed all paths lead to God.

I look at this list now this was me 15 years ago.. I cant believe that it was me... because I would never think about doing ANY of these things in all good conscience. not even that pen from work. I feel so far removed from that person... and I totally acknowledge that it was ALL Jesus Christ and none of it was ME. I am humbled and seriously this is the ONLY proof I can give to any person who says to me.. "how do you know you are saved." When I was born again I literally became a new creation.. He created a clean heart and a clean mind and He is gradually removing all those horrible sins that I committed so easlily every day. Oh I know He has so much further to go.. every day I do things that I have to repent for and Im asking Him to make me into who He wants me to be.. When I meet Him face to face I want to be like Him and I know thats what He does in His when we make that choice Him or the world.

Thats how I know that I am on the right path. Thats why I exhort to others that call Him Lord.. Do you see the change He is making in your life... if you dont you need to ask Why and get right with Him while you still can.

That is powerful testimony Faithful, and I am always in awe of the transformation God brings to our life when we open up to him. It is this experience of God...this knowing of God...which confirms us in this life to Him, I think. When it happens, the question of "does God exist," becomes a non-sequitor, a non-question. I had some very big and powerful things happen in my life too when I turned to God eight years or so ago. I don't usually talk about them because they are so significant to me, and it really hurts me when people brush them off, but my life has been transformed by God and I've been pushed ever closer to God since then.

As for questioning myself...certainly I do. There is much about the path of trusting in Christ that I find I can only say is Mystery. There are many things that fall into the category of 'doctrine,' that end up causing us to not stay in good relationship with each other, and so I have a hard time trusting all those 'winds of doctrine.' But, I do trust the greatest commandments and I do trust the example I see in Christ for what I am to do.

 

[-James-]

I have to always question it in myself luna.. if I didnt I would be foolish. I literally pray that Christ finds me worthy. I can see the difference in my life because of Christ recreating me. I could go into detail and maybe I should because the only test we have of each other is whether we see the change that Christ does to us.

Heres my list.

I did drugs... not just pot.. for a few years I was actually doing crank which is one of the hardest things to get out of..

I cursed worse than a sailor. the F word was every other word out of my mouth.. now dont tell dor this because he IS a sailor and has that very tendency and I am getting on him all the time.

I was addicted to porn because of early sexualization when I was a child.

I was a compulsive liar.

I was a thief.

I was horrible to my mother I stole from my mother.

I was hard core into astrology and new age channeling was an interest.

I was a true blue gossiper and back biter.

I told people that I believed all paths lead to God.

I look at this list now this was me 15 years ago.. I cant believe that it was me... because I would never think about doing ANY of these things in all good conscience. not even that pen from work. I feel so far removed from that person... and I totally acknowledge that it was ALL Jesus Christ and none of it was ME. I am humbled and seriously this is the ONLY proof I can give to any person who says to me.. "how do you know you are saved." When I was born again I literally became a new creation.. He created a clean heart and a clean mind and He is gradually removing all those horrible sins that I committed so easlily every day. Oh I know He has so much further to go.. every day I do things that I have to repent for and Im asking Him to make me into who He wants me to be.. When I meet Him face to face I want to be like Him and I know thats what He does in His when we make that choice Him or the world.

Thats how I know that I am on the right path. Thats why I exhort to others that call Him Lord.. Do you see the change He is making in your life... if you dont you need to ask Why and get right with Him while you still can.

Powerful, indeed! You and I have/had a great deal in common, FS. The drugs, the swearing, lying, theivery, lust, etc...

Christ came for the sick, and it seems that he found us both.


Thank you for sharing that,


James

 

[Faithfulservant]

Thats ALL we can do.. We cant do anything of ourselves. We are supposed to be living examples of who Jesus Christ is. The only thing I can trust is the word of God and the work of the Holy Spirit in my life. Both of these things lead me to a closer walk with Jesus.. I will not embrace anything that contradicts those two including people that hate my God.

 

[Faithfulservant]

Powerful, indeed! You and I have/had a great deal in common, FS. The drugs, the swearing, lying, theivery, lust, etc...

Christ came for the sick, and it seems that he found us both.


Thank you for sharing that,


James

*hugs*

He is awesome and I hope that being a living testimony of His grace exalts His name every day of my life.

 

[Thomas]

Lunamoth's references to Matthew is a salient point.

Matthew's Gospel took its final form around 85AD, it's quoted in the Didache (100AD) and the Epistle of Clement of Rome (95AD).

The final editor of Matthew we have identified pretty well as a 'scribe', and he was a JudeoChristian eacher, addressing a Jewish audience (he has been placed around Judea/S. Syria) and as traditional testimony has it, his Gospel was first written in Aramaic, which would make sense, and place it earlier than 85AD, by which time it was in Greek.

It assumes a knowledge of the Hebrew Scriptures (not expected of the gentiles) and a familiarity with rabinnical teaching, employing rabbinical methodolgy in its accusation and argument.

But it was also written around the time of the Jewish Council of Jamnia (c80-90AD), a time of great dispute between Christians and Jews, which resulted in the Council expelling Christians from Jewish places of worship.

This amounts to an excommunication, which would have hurt the JudeoChristian community a great deal. It is not surprising, therefore, to find a degree of vehemence directed towards the Jewish authorities, and why so much reference is made to Our Lord's short shrift treatment of them in his accusations against the Pharisees, for example, who were most vociferously anti-Christian ... in short, why Matthew pitches his accusations as a strenuous counter to the perception of a Jewish persecution of the Church that continued the persecution of Christ, its Founder.

Take this into account, then the parable of the wedding in Matthew 22:8 "The wedding banquet is ready, but those I invited did not deserve to come" takes on a whole new significance. Again, 'the good and wise servant' of Matthew 24 counters the wicked servant who usurps the master's authority and deserves his wrath ... it's evident who Matthew considers the 'goats' in Chapter 25 ...

... and of course, referring to the faith of a Roman centurion in 8:10 "I tell you the truth, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith," was a direct accusation of the Temple Priesthood who were supposed to be faith's exemplars ... "I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. But the subjects of the kingdom (the wicked servants among the Jews) will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (8:11-12).

All this is addressed against the pride – the spiritual 'riches' of the authorities, who refused to listen to the Word, not against the spiritual 'poverty' of the man in the street ... the meaner the sinner in his weakness, the more the Mercy; the meaner in his strength (pride), the more the Judgement.

The Beatitudes say it all.

Thomas

 

[-James-]

*hugs*

He is awesome and I hope that being a living testimony of His grace exalts His name every day of my life.

Yes he is awsome, and I am most grateful to him for taking me out of the pit -- of despair, of rage, of insecurity etc. All I can do now is be a witness to what I myself have experienced through him.


James

 

[cyberpi]

If I choose heaven just because I'm afraid of hell?

I wonder if anyone has considered that Earth might be hell? It is a place where there is darkness between people and God, weeping and gnashing of teeth, a flame between many that is not quenchable, much iniquity, hypocrisy, and every puddle of water or tongue is really on constant fire. Barring a thermonuclear war, death by biodiversity, or spent resources, there are some worms that may never die.

On the other hand, I have wondered if the physics of heaven and hell are similar or the same, but with different people.

 

[Faithfulservant]

There are worms that live deep within the ocean that reside next to hot geysers of sulpheric gases and survive.. they just managed to catch one and keep it alive long enough to study it.. I personally dont believe the surface of earth is hell... but that hell is in the center of it.

 

[Quahom1]

There are worms that live deep within the ocean that reside next to hot geysers of sulpheric gases and survive.. they just managed to catch one and keep it alive long enough to study it.. I personally dont believe the surface of earth is hell... but that hell is in the center of it.

The center of the earth is a solid core of nickel/iron (hence the magnetic dynamo that is the magnetisphere of earth). If it were not so, we and all life would have been radiated to exinction a long time ago. The Magma is the intermediate shell outside the solid core. This contributes to the electromagnetic energies that the earth produces (the natural generator). Hell isn't there, anymore than heaven is in the skies of our existing plane.

Since life that leaves the physical body can not be measured or observed (clearly), suffice it to presume that heaven and hell are of a similar plane or dimension that only the spirit may enter, while the physical body returns to the dust it came from.

v/r

Joshua

 

[Faithfulservant]

Im sorry Q.. all I can do is go to scripture and the only way Down is beneath my feet. I pulled scriptures to show my point. Some are vague and some flat out say so. So in this I have to disagree with you.

They are higher than heaven--what can you do? Deeper than Sheol--what can you know?

Will they go down to the gates of Sheol? Shall we have rest together in the dust?"

For great is Your mercy toward me, And You have delivered my soul from the depths of Sheol.

Let us swallow them alive like Sheol, And whole, like those who go down to the Pit;

Therefore Sheol has enlarged itself And opened its mouth beyond measure; Their glory and their multitude and their pomp, And he who is jubilant, shall descend into it.

For Sheol cannot thank You, Death cannot praise You; Those who go down to the pit cannot hope for Your truth.

You went to the king with ointment, And increased your perfumes; You sent your messengers far off, And even descended to Sheol

And he said: "I cried out to the Lord because of my affliction, And He answered me. "Out of the belly of Sheol I cried, And You heard my voice.

And you, Capernaum, who are exalted to heaven, will be brought down to Hades; for if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day

The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.

For a fire is kindled by my anger, And shall burn to the lowest hell; It shall consume the earth with her increase, And set on fire the foundations of the mountains.

If I ascend into heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in hell, behold, You are there.

But he does not know that the dead are there, That her guests are in the depths of hell.

The way of life winds upward for the wise, That he may turn away from hell below.

"Hell from beneath is excited about you, To meet you at your coming; It stirs up the dead for you, All the chief ones of the earth; It has raised up from their thrones All the kings of the nations.

"Thus says the Lord God: 'In the day when it went down to hell, I caused mourning. I covered the deep because of it. I restrained its rivers, and the great waters were held back. I caused Lebanon to mourn for it, and all the trees of the field wilted because of it.

They also went down to hell with it, with those slain by the sword; and those who were its strong arm dwelt in its shadows among the nations

The strong among the mighty Shall speak to him out of the midst of hell With those who help him: 'They have gone down, They lie with the uncircumcised, slain by the sword

Though they dig into hell, From there my hand shall take them; Though they climb up to heaven, From there I will bring them down

 

[Quahom1]

Im sorry Q.. all I can do is go to scripture and the only way Down is beneath my feet. I pulled scriptures to show my point. Some are vague and some flat out say so. So in this I have to disagree with you.

They are higher than heaven--what can you do? Deeper than Sheol--what can you know?

Will they go down to the gates of Sheol? Shall we have rest together in the dust?"

For great is Your mercy toward me, And You have delivered my soul from the depths of Sheol.

Let us swallow them alive like Sheol, And whole, like those who go down to the Pit;

Therefore Sheol has enlarged itself And opened its mouth beyond measure; Their glory and their multitude and their pomp, And he who is jubilant, shall descend into it.

For Sheol cannot thank You, Death cannot praise You; Those who go down to the pit cannot hope for Your truth.

You went to the king with ointment, And increased your perfumes; You sent your messengers far off, And even descended to Sheol

And he said: "I cried out to the Lord because of my affliction, And He answered me. "Out of the belly of Sheol I cried, And You heard my voice.

And you, Capernaum, who are exalted to heaven, will be brought down to Hades; for if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day

The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.

For a fire is kindled by my anger, And shall burn to the lowest hell; It shall consume the earth with her increase, And set on fire the foundations of the mountains.

If I ascend into heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in hell, behold, You are there.

But he does not know that the dead are there, That her guests are in the depths of hell.

The way of life winds upward for the wise, That he may turn away from hell below.

"Hell from beneath is excited about you, To meet you at your coming; It stirs up the dead for you, All the chief ones of the earth; It has raised up from their thrones All the kings of the nations.

"Thus says the Lord God: 'In the day when it went down to hell, I caused mourning. I covered the deep because of it. I restrained its rivers, and the great waters were held back. I caused Lebanon to mourn for it, and all the trees of the field wilted because of it.

They also went down to hell with it, with those slain by the sword; and those who were its strong arm dwelt in its shadows among the nations

The strong among the mighty Shall speak to him out of the midst of hell With those who help him: 'They have gone down, They lie with the uncircumcised, slain by the sword

Though they dig into hell, From there my hand shall take them; Though they climb up to heaven, From there I will bring them down

Ok, I will ask a question. What are we more concerned about going to hell? Our bodies, or our souls/spirits?...

That should get you to thinking about what really is at stake, concerning heaven and hell, and physical reality in the three dimensions (four if one considers time), and the other reality we (our spirits will go to concerning God's heaven, or Satan's hell). Why do I ask? I know soldiers and sailors and airmen who could care less about their corporial bodies...all they care about is their spirit, and God's grace and Love. As long as they have that secured, their bodies go through hell that you could not even begin to believe, even with your confessed past. I'm quite certain they, and I have had as colorful a life as you, but it ain't a physical hell that worries them...

v/r

Joshua

 

[Faithfulservant]

Ok, I will ask a question. What are we more concerned about going to hell? Our bodies, or our souls/spirits?...

That should get you to thinking about what really is at stake, concerning heaven and hell, and physical reality in the three dimensions (four if one considers time), and the other reality we (our spirits will go to concerning God's heaven, or Satan's hell). Why do I ask? I know soldiers and sailors and airmen who could care less about their corporial bodies...all they care about is their spirit, and God's grace and Love. As long as they have that secured, their bodies go through hell that you could not even begin to believe, even with your confessed past. I'm quite certain they, and I have had as colorful a life as you, but it ain't a physical hell that worries them...

v/r

Joshua

Q Im not saying that its our physical bodies that go to hell.. Its definitely our souls that would. I just happen to believe literally that hell is in the earth. Whether its a dimensional thing I dont know.. I only know that I accept the word at face value because in doing that I cant go wrong.

 

[cavalier]

Q Im not saying that its our physical bodies that go to hell.. Its definitely our souls that would. I just happen to believe literally that hell is in the earth. Whether its a dimensional thing I dont know.. I only know that I accept the word at face value because in doing that I cant go wrong.

Out of curiosity,
in your church, in your demonination, is this a widely held view?

 

[Faithfulservant]

That the bible is inerrant? yes lol We take the bible literally.

 

[cavalier]

No, not that part. The part about Hell existing in the center of the Earth

 

[Faithfulservant]

Its not doctrine.. its one of those things that you hope you dont see first hand but when you die all knowledge is yours. I dont plan on finding out for myself but its kind of amazing that the bible predates any modern science and yet spoke of things that we are just recently discovering. There are cases of negative NDE where people claim to descend into the earth into hell rather than ascend into heaven. My pastor did a sermon on it if you are interested I'll link it to you.