Wrath of God pt 2 (What's your god like?)

lunamoth said:
You didn't answer my question.
Click to expand...

I cant answer your question because I'm not God. I'm only a finite creature that believes the the God of the Bible is most holy and just and will always do what is right. Moreover, I believe he does every thing for His glory, even when its forgiving His enemies. Also, I believe as scripture teaches, that He forgives those who repent and trust in the provision He has made, namely Christ. I believe that God has a purpose for everything He made and it all works out in glorifying Him, whether it is found in those whom He saved to the paise and glory of His grace (Eph 1:6), or to those whom He designed for destruction (Pro 16:4). As the scriptures say, "Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how fathomless his ways" (Rom 11:33)! Your way and God's ways seem different. All that said, I should mention to you before you decide to send me the scriptures why you feel that "All" people will eventually be saved, that you should look at the word "all" in the greek. It is the word "Pas" and has two means: 1. All, i.e, everyone indivisually, 2., Collectively, i.e., all sorts of types. Context should be your rule when interpretating scripture. So what are the scriptures you use?
 
juantoo3 said:
Kindest Regards, Dor!

Indeed! OF course, presuming Silas agrees with this, it would mean ya'll would have to accept outright about 90% of the people on here who claim to be Christian into the little exclusive club.
Click to expand...

I agree with Dor. As for what you said though, I disagree. Some of the people here who claim to be Christians have no idea of why they need a Savior and thus they have not been born again. This Christian walk is hard and not many find it. Most take the easy and broad road. This "Jesus is the only way" stuff is too mean for some to except and so they try to interpretate scripture differently in an attempt to both claim to be Christian, and make the Bible's truth, just another truth.
 
Silas said:
I cant answer your question because I'm not God. I'm only a finite creature that believes the the God of the Bible is most holy and just and will always do what is right. Moreover, I believe he does every thing for His glory, even when its forgiving His enemies. Also, I believe as scripture teaches, that He forgives those who repent and trust in the provision He has made, namely Christ. I believe that God has a purpose for everything He made and it all works out in glorifying Him, whether it is found in those whom He saved to the paise and glory of His grace (Eph 1:6), or to those whom He designed for destruction (Pro 16:4). As the scriptures say, "Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how fathomless his ways" (Rom 11:33)! Your way and God's ways seem different. All that said, I should mention to you before you decide to send me the scriptures why you feel that "All" people will eventually be saved, that you should look at the word "all" in the greek. It is the word "Pas" and has two means: 1. All, i.e, everyone indivisually, 2., Collectively, i.e., all sorts of types. Context should be your rule when interpretating scripture. So what are the scriptures you use?
Click to expand...


I base it upon the character of God whom I meet in Jesus through the Gospels. If you want a supporting piece of scripture for this, the classic example is 1 Corinthians 15:28.

So, even if you were not God, if it were up to you would you condemn me to eternity apart from God because I believe that all will end up in God?
 
lunamoth said:
I base it upon the character of God whom I meet in Jesus through the Gospels. If you want a supporting piece of scripture for this, the classic example is 1 Corinthians 15:28.

So, even if you were not God, if it were up to you would you condemn me to eternity apart from God because I believe that all will end up in God?
Click to expand...

"When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all." - 1Cor 15:28

How does that scripture show that all will eventually end up in Heaven? As for your question, I'll answer it like this: I am not God, therefore I cannot say what I would do. I already gave scriptures that said what God, the true and Living God, has already decided what will be done. I agree with His ways; even the ones I do not understand. In fact, I pray to be conformed more and more to Him that I may be more God-centered. God has already decided that those who spurn His grace and all those who break his laws, and all those who reject Jesus, will eternally be punished for their sins. I agree with that.
 
Silas said:

"When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all." - 1Cor 15:28

How does that scripture show that all will eventually end up in Heaven? As for your question, I'll answer it like this: I am not God, therefore I cannot say what I would do. I already gave scriptures that said what God, the true and Living God, has already decided what will be done. I agree with His ways; even the ones I do not understand. In fact, I pray to be conformed more and more to Him that I may be more God-centered. God has already decided that those who spurn His grace and all those who break his laws, and all those who reject Jesus, will eternally be punished for their sins. I agree with that.
Click to expand...


That scripture says that all will end up reconciled in God, it speaks of God's ultimate majesty and Christ's victory over all.
 
Where does it say that all people will end up reconciled to God in the verse or context of the verse? How did you come to that conclussion?
 
Silas said:
Where does it say that all people will end up reconciled to God in the verse or context of the verse? How did you come to that conclussion?
Click to expand...


It says that God is victorious and all ends up in Him, through Christ. I'm not sure how else I can say it Silas. It is a theme that runs thoughout the whole Bible. If you don't see it then you don't see it. *shrug*
 
lunamoth said:
It says that God is victorious and all ends up in Him, through Christ. I'm not sure how else I can say it Silas. It is a theme that runs thoughout the whole Bible. If you don't see it then you don't see it. *shrug*
Click to expand...

because it is not there. Is why we do not see it.

Well I see that God is victorious but Universalism is not biblical. Sorry.
 
Listen.. I will back down to anything to keep peace as long as its not a salvation issue.. you are teaching that everyone will be saved even if they dont willingly make the choice to repent and call Christ Lord and believe that He IS risen from the dead.. I know that you believe otherwise but it is not biblical according to my bible and its dangerous and if someone perhaps goes to hell because of something you said you WILL have to deal with it According to my bible I HAVE to tell you that you are wrong. Or I am disobeying my Lord.

You posted Romans 5 and I showed you in Romans 4 where Paul said you HAVE to believe and have faith that Christ died and resurrected and you are ignoring it completely let me do it again. The two chapters are ONE thought not two.. the biggest diservice man did to the bible was seperate it in chapter and verse.

ROMANS 4 but also for us. It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification.
ROMANS 5Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we [a] have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we boast in the hope of the glory of God.

Ya'll can ban me but my conscience would be clear. The only judge I need to worry about is God.
 
lunamoth said:
It says that God is victorious and all ends up in Him, through Christ. I'm not sure how else I can say it Silas. It is a theme that runs thoughout the whole Bible. If you don't see it then you don't see it. *shrug*
Click to expand...

A theme that runs throughout the whole Bible? I dont know about that. Lets take this scripture in context, starting with verse 18, to see more clearly what verse 28 is talking about.

And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If in this life only we have hoped in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied. But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. - 1Cor 15:18-23

What do we have so far? We have the fact that if Christ didnt raise from the dead, the Chrsitian faith is a joke - it is futile. But, since He [Christ] did raise from the grave, all those who have fallen asleep in Him, or died in the faith, will also raise to life. Since all, i.e., the "all" is in context of the previous sentence - "all the ones who trust in Christ," have sinned in Adam, then "all," i.e., the same "all" being discussed - those in the faith, shall be made alive in Christ. Lets continue:

But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For "God has put all things in subjection under his feet." But when it says, "all things are put in subjection," it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all. - 1Cor 15:23-28

What do we have here? We have verse 23 begining with same "all" of the previous verses, i.e., those in the faith (since it is faith that saves and places us in Christ). After this we see the rest of the verses speaking about God the Father putting everything in subjection to Christ' athority. Nowhere in the vese does it talk about everyone going to Heaven eventually. Where do you see different?
 
Friends,

I have never tried to convince you that you need to believe this and I'm done putting myself out there for you to criticize and judge. I responded to the OP question, what is the character of God. God is unconditional love. I've said several times in several ways that I see no way for a God Who is Love to exile His creatures for eternity, and I've explained how I see the passages of the Bible as describing healing, restoring, and retuning for exile, and never eternal condemnation. You've told me in good conscience, and I believe you have only good intentions, that you fear my belief is a stumbling block to others. Fine, I will stop talking about it. I only explained it because I was asked to.

In His Peace,
luna
 
All things are under Christs authority, (By God) and yes he is the ONLY way to salvation. That's is not being debated to my understanding. All things are palced under his feet, and if he's destroying evil then in my mind, he's not destroying actual people, but the evil that is in them, through him i.e his Spirit who is in the world NOW.

Faith is not being debated, either. My faith is strong, Luna's is strong and our faith both rests is Christ. All can be saved through Christ, and apparently all will as it is written that Christ is not willing for any to perish, and if all things are subject to his rule, then who can resits, "every knee shall bow".

It certainly doesn't happen in this life, but we know nothing of the life to come, so perhaps Luna is right when she suggests that all will be saved. I myself do not know, nor does anyone else with any certainty.


Sorry for jumping in like that. My stay is short tho, as my son is here; I just wanted to give my 2c's, lol! :)


James
 
lunamoth said:
It says that God is victorious and all ends up in Him, through Christ. I'm not sure how else I can say it Silas. It is a theme that runs thoughout the whole Bible. If you don't see it then you don't see it. *shrug*
Click to expand...
Ok Im really trying here but I need to ask a question here....
If all people end up with him why did he say....

Matthew 12:31 "Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. 32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.
 
Dor said:
Ok Im really trying here but I need to ask a question here....
If all people end up with him why did he say....

Matthew 12:31 "Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. 32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.
Click to expand...

My understanding of that passage is that a person has to deny that Love is of God and the Way (good), that forgiveness is good, that healing, patience, gentleness, all the fruit of the Spirit...denied as good. When we deny these things as good we have turned our back on God and there is no way forward to reunion with Him.

I take this very seriously. In context, as you know, Jesus replies this when he has been accused of getting his power to heal from demons. The critics (can't remember off hand if they were Pharisees or who), essentially said that something good is from demons, rather than from God. But this is not possible. If we insist to say that something good, like healing people, is actually bad, then we are truely lost. To deny the Spirit would first mean that we have to fully know the Spirit.

All good comes from God, and no bad fruit can come from God.

We can believe that it is possible to commit this sin, but we don't have to believe than anybody does.
 
Dor said:
Ok Im really trying here but I need to ask a question here....
If all people end up with him why did he say....

Matthew 12:31 "Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. 32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.
Click to expand...
I am of the opinion that he who takes credit for what the Holy Spirit has done, is the unforgivable sin. I also believe there is only a few who have ever, or will ever commit this unpardonable sin...and they are variations of the "anti-Christ" persona...

v/r

Joshua
 
Quahom1 said:
I am of the opinion that he who takes credit for what the Holy Spirit has done, is the unforgivable sin. I also believe there is only a few who have ever, or will ever commit this unpardonable sin...and they are variations of the "anti-Christ" persona...

v/r

Joshua
Click to expand...

Ok my point was if there is an unforgivable sin that shoots universalism in the foot.
 
lunamoth said:
Friends,

I have never tried to convince you that you need to believe this and I'm done putting myself out there for you to criticize and judge. I responded to the OP question, what is the character of God. God is unconditional love. I've said several times in several ways that I see no way for a God Who is Love to exile His creatures for eternity, and I've explained how I see the passages of the Bible as describing healing, restoring, and retuning for exile, and never eternal condemnation. You've told me in good conscience, and I believe you have only good intentions, that you fear my belief is a stumbling block to others. Fine, I will stop talking about it. I only explained it because I was asked to.

In His Peace,
luna
Click to expand...

Luna,

PLEASE dont feel bad about explaining what you believe. I find it good that we can discuss these things. Does not the Bible say to "let us reason?" We are not mad that you are explaining your beliefs, we only ask that you explain from scripture why you believe what you believe. So far, you havent proved from scripture that all will go to Heaven.

Later,

Silas
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top