Answering a Fundamentalist Christian

ROFL!

I must not be fundie then.. I hate walmart... Im a target girl :)

Also.. I would never burn a book.. I love books. Including Harry Potter :p
 
yogaman said:
Is there any succinct info out there which I can read so that I can relate their beliefs to mine. With this information, I can then ask myself, "How would I respond to that...?"
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Ha! Well the "fundamentalists" that I used to always run into on the streets of Greenville, South Carolina were always eager to hand me a "tract" from their stacks. So you could go direct to the source and study something like that.
 
Hey Faithfulservant--

When I go visit my Dad, there is a Wally World right around the corner from him, out in the middle of the woods, sorta. LOL--he goes there at least once a day. I love it! (I don't get out much these days). :)

I would not burn books either--I like finding old ones that have been dismissed by someone, or just plain lost. I like to look at garage sales for them. Once, I let a bunch of vinyl records melt in the sun on the corner waiting on the garbage collectors. I enjoyed it then--now I wish I hadn't done it. It wasn't one of my finer moments, I don't think.

(No--it wasn't the Beatles! :))

InPeace,
InLove
 
flowperson said:
Wayne Cochrane and the CC Riders ? Wayne had such great "BIG HAIR".
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Wasn't he a buddy of Jaco's?

(This is what happens to the thread when you step out for lunch, yogaman. :D)

InPeace,
InLove
 
seattlegal said:
That's easy. Ask them.

I would say that the first thing you should do is go out and test your hypothesis about the "average" fundamentalist not really delving deeply into their faith. If you start off with an unproven hypothesis as your base, and that hypothesis is false, the only thing you will accomplish is in building up a false theory.


I would say that the best way to get this information is to go look for yourself, instead of feeding on someone else's words, taken on faith. Otherwise, you would run the risk of becoming the "parrot" that you assume others to be.
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I think feeding on other's preconcieved ideas and dwelling on past mistakes without forming your own thoughts on the matter is something done quite often. I have been guilty of "Mc-responses" (I love that), but it is sometimes just so easy to do. I am not saying it is right, there are just times in my life when I don't want to deal with it. If a mind is rigidly set on denying fundamental beliefs they WILL do it. (oops, I digress.)

You are recieving some excellent advice ...(although I don't know about the reincarnation thing, but I don't want to deal with it. See?)
 
inhumility said:
Hi yogaman!
Well , I am an Ahmadi , a peaceful faith in Islam. I am not used to some terms used in your post. I live in the Indien sub-continent. I don't know what is a Bible belt in USA or what are the faith concepts of fundementalist Christians viz a viz say a Catholic or Protestant Christians or Lutheran Christians. Could you kindly elaborate on this?
Nevertheless, to be a steadfast theist and a sound religionist I would recommend for you reading a small book "The Philosphy of Teachings of Islam" by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, the PromisedMessiahImamMahdi.It is free online.
http://www.alislam.org/books/philosophy/1q7.html
This would provide and equip one with sound rational reasons to be a religionist against those who are not.
Thanks
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No prosthelizing(sp) allowed.:) *yep my spelling sucks*
 
Hmmmmm...an auspicious beginning for your moderatorship Dor, or am I mistaken?

I see it differently. The future requires neither "liberal" nor "fundamentalist" Christians. Both approaches to the "truth" will be increasingly outmoded as time dances on, IMHO. The future requires "progressive" Christians.

Here's some good information regarding its beginnings as manifested "down under".

flow....:)

http://www.rexaehuntprogressive.com/articles/ProgressiveXianity
 
Dor said:
Aww good to be reminded how intolerant the liberal crowd is also.
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What I'm saying, Dor, is that there's no winning an argument with a fundamentalist. What proof could I ever offer that would suffice when proofs, and rationalizations, and logic, in the end, don't mean a damn thing.

Chris
 
Oh, it still says Juan, but if you're the new Christianity Mod, Dor, I believe congratulations are in order. I'm sure you'll do an excellent job!

Chris
 
China Cat...Sometimes this place is like being at a concert where everyone is rockin' away until someone accidentally ( or on purpose ) pulls the sound feed lines out of the amps. Hmmmmmm....

flow....:cool:
 
Yogaman, others,

Neat! I had typed a mammoth post, hit preview, and it went bang. Oops, new account, forgot to properly log in. Human error, yes. Hint that I am too damn wordy and need to cut to the chase? Probably.

Yogaman, I've posted at CR as Taijasi, as Zagreus, and here I am as Andrew. Your thread, and its resultant discussion, strikes many positive chords with me ... and it seems to have evoked something that's taken me two years here at CR to better understand. I'll try to sum that up in three points, seed thoughts, which I hope will resonate with you, and with others on this thread, since I think it has eveything to do with how to continue Interfaith Dialogue and Ecumenical Cooperation - especially when energies between two or more parties might otherwise become discordant. ;)

Background: I live in Greensboro, NC, and I grew up here. I went to Lutheran church for 13 or so years, long enough to receive my Confirmation. While my outward faith was confirmed along one means of enquiry, I would say another door was simultaneously opening along another line ... such that I continue to aspire - not to find spiritual goals, or meaning, or ideals, but to put these into practice. And I have long since realized that as the spiral comes back around, I will not be able to progress to the next higher level, or plateau, until i can demonstrate some level of proficiency with the earlier, exoteric lessons. As a dear friend once said, "If you would practice Kabbalah, first master the Torah!" :)

Why do I return to CR ... and why does 17th post so often? Perhaps there is a parallel here. We are drawn, yes, but to what? Do our souls need saving, and are our lives completely without meaning, or Jesus? Hmmmm. Mostly no, I'd have to say, yet whether or not 17th would agree, I sense a kernel of Truth in what I've just said ... and while my gut does not show me the whole picture, it can point me toward the Heart - and that's where all things come together, anyway. {If a Christian Fundamentalist and person of X other background or inclination don't feel they can comfortably co-exist on a given `plate' ... get a bigger plate!}

We return, because we have not finished. There is unfinished karma, if we prefer to look at this as "debt," but there is also an unmistakable Dharma (Duty, Responsibility), since we all have somethiing to offer, or share with one another. Some of us may apply this as more than just a metaphor, and take it to literally mean that we return incarnation after incarnation. But what I really have to share, and the reason your thread, Yogaman, and this discussion, drew me in today ... goes straight to the heart of Interfaith, as best I feel I've ever been able.

I'll post this as a 2nd message out of respect, length/eye strain considerations, and so CR will hopefully let my first two msgs actually go through. Please forgive the unedited, unstructured form of my 2nd post; I haven't the focus to sift it back into logical order right now ... I just want to share the seed thoughts.

regards, all,

~andrew
 
Key ideas first, something of value in each for all of us.

1) Responsibility <--> Spiritual Self-Reliance, Established in the Spirit, the "Rock of Righteousness" ... Faith in Jesus does not substitute for the Buddha's Truth: "We are what we think/have thought" - With our thoughts, words, deeds, we literally build ourselves, and build the world (or break these down, hinder progress, etc.).

Jesus cannot, and will not, deliver us from ourselves. Only WE have the power to do this. But if we call upon God, whether in Jesus' name or ANY Holy name, God will answer. It's what's in the heart that counts. Divine INTENT. Christians should get used to this, after all, we share this world together - and we ALL have responsibility for maintaining it. No Rapture is going to nullify or deliver us from RESPONSIBILITY, and Karma. You don't believe in Karma? Tough. But as has already been pointed out, we can choose and walk our own path, so long as we respect those around us, and accept that there are DIVERSE religious & spiritual approaches. We are not responsible for making up ANYONE else's minds but our own, nor is it our Holy Purpose to go out and "save souls." This is where we get into BIG trouble ... but not spiritually, just psychologically. This gives some folks emotional satisfaction, even a sense of meaning or purpose, but it has NOTHING to do with true spirituality. The Soul is not in need of saving. You doubt? Just ask it!! Or in Christian terms, consult with God. Perhaps fast forward to #3.

For folks who are on the "resisting edge" of the Piscean-Christian energies, or who incarnate more *directly* the Aquarian Group consciousness & energies of the New Era, a related challenge may be to keep from being distracted & getting sucked in ... to the apparent fray. There is *definitely* a dissonance of forces at the personality level, but it should be remembered and maintained that all spriritual Ashrams (One Shepherd, Many Flocks) cooperate in the One Work INWARDLY, such that the goal is for this fact to become *realized* and *embodied* - more harmoniously - in outward form. Not even always easy to state in simple terms, much less to practice in the heat of "battle," but again, proceed to #3 to remove all shadow of doubt!

2) Forgiveness <--> Victim mentality, persecution complex

This is all about karma. Believing in past lives or not, "what goes around, comes around." No one *vicariously atones* for OUR misdeeds. Such a notion contradicts the doctrine of Divine Responsibility. Free Will does not mean free license to wreak havoc on God, God's Creation, God's Creatures, or each other - God's supposedly *noblest* of creatures. Nor is Jesus Mr. Mop-it-Up cuz we screwed-it-up. Perish this ignoble thought! :eek:

Feels like persecution, right? Someone's attacking me, because they're challenging what I've been TAUGHT to believe, and what therefore FEELS right to me. Yes, those of us *kooks* who have long maintained that we live thousands of lives, or travel out of our bodies, or can see other states of energy ... yep. We know what it feels like too, to be laughed at, persecuted, marginalized, excluded, nailed to trees, or hanged, burned, drowned, etc. Yep. Am I pissed? Nope. And not because I'm going to fall back on something like, "You'll get yours." What kind of "Divine Understanding" or Forgiveness is that!?! :eek:

Christ taught us that to love our neighbor (those close to us, "like us," or easy to sympathize with) was not the real challenge. Loving our supposed ENEMY ... is what takes the real HEART WORK. That's what stretches the spiritual and mental - and emotional - muscles. I've been a Theosophist and esotericist in THIS life, and a Christan in previous ones. Trust me. I KNOW ... *something at least* about this persecution bit, from many sides of this curious coin.

It comes back to the *real* spiritual battle we're fighting. And that's one where LOVE is our greatest Tool, Forgiveness the strongest shield ... and Responsibilty the only sure FOOTHOLD as we face our current trials, and those ahead. Our Spiritual Brothers are all around us, *on every side*, and if we believe that Christ is the Avatar, the Divine Expression, even Incarnation, of LOVE Itself ... then we also know that the Christ within, is the Energy of Unconditional Love within. This is beyond names, and even religions, for when it comes to Humanity, and religions, which was made for which (and why)?

3) Unconditional Love <--> Hate has never yet conquered hate; only Love conquers hate.

Why not cease all other discussions? Why not make this the ONE THEME of this site? Why couldn't Comparative Religion become one ongoing, long-standing, multi-threaded & multi-faceted conversation about LOVE? What is the purpose of all religions if not to teach Humanity HOW TO LOVE, and show that it IS POSSIBLE for one person to love another, unconditionally in the IDEAL, yet MORE THAN we have done so in the past ... on the WAY to that Ideal? This needs pondering! ;)

The Intellectual types prefer to complicate things. Plain and simple romance, love-making, or even sensual passion is better than a head full of ideas that get us nowhere. ;) Christ knew this, and thus His statement about the sensualists and prostitutes - that THEY were closer to the Kingdom of Heaven than the Pharisees. :eek:

We don't have to philosophize, but Socrates wasn't exactly a Warmonger, now was he? Plato didn't advocate chaos and religious anarchy, now did he? Immanuel Kant didn't propose the Categorical Imperative for shits 'n grins, now DID he? :)

Christianity, IF PRACTICED, would save the world. But why not turn the word "IF" into "WHEN," and get on with it? We can still chat, and discuss, and learn, and share, but the forces of Fear - which are those of darkness, hate and ignorance - will lose their foothold automatically and INEVITABLY, as we practice and embody greater LOVE, Trust and FAITH IN OUR OWN CHOSEN PATH.

Leave the rest to God. God is not without His/Her Helpers. Do we doubt this? If so, then let's admit it, seek for greater understanding, and open to what comes in response. Yet if we are pressured, even silently, by our co-congregationalists, or family members, or friends and co-workers, into some kind of false utterance of faith ... even if we DO feel emotionally moved at times (or "spirit-moved," as it has been said) ... then let us not deceive ourselves, nor seek a false sense of security in the world of *feeling* - because we know that God did not FEEL the worlds into existence. God surely did not create purely because S/He had a creative URGE, a DESIRE, or a PASSION. Remember, God acts out of WILL, and based on DIVINE INTENT, which in our Greatest Understanding ... is PURE, Unconditional LOVE.

If LOVE - Unconditional LOVE - is the very SOURCE, and even the Reason, the Purpose, for God's Creation of the world, and of each & every one of us, then how can we doubt Him/Her? Surely it is not our Right Understanding which is in error ... but rather, it is our LACK of Faith, and our *lack* of understanding, which is in error. Not then, in pure emotion, however great the swells, will we find the certainty, the Truth, the Reassurance, the Voice, the Meaning, and the Purpose - or the COMFORT - which we seek.

We WILL find all of this, when we both reach out, AND seek within ... in earnest. Pride is only a dirty little word which brings with it a surge of what we call "ego," but if Ego means only, in the Latin, "I AM," then tell me - any of you, any of us - since WHEN did pure Existence, pure Being, the simple fact that WE ARE become a Sin? {Attn theologian: please use revolving door at this point. The devil is in the details. However, see below:}

The Fire of Prometheus burns within us to drive us onward. Itself, it is neither good nor bad. Without it, we would not even have the inclination to move at all, let alone forward. Yet it has not been given for us to use irresponsibly or selfishly, *especially* as we find these Fires quickening our Spirit. And it must eventually consume ALL which does not conform - gradually, gently, and *willingly* - to God's Most Holy Plan, and Divine Purpose.

Dare we term this gift, of Consciousness Itself, unholy? Should we curse our Free Will, for having opened our eyes to the distinction between good and evil? Never! Yet having brought us this Light, and awakened our Consciousness, one Order of Angels have served their part ... and now, another, Higher Order, awaits our Appointment at a loftier, if more difficult and demanding Post.

Shall we tarry? God help us if we dare, for my heat grows heavy.

Prometheus .... bound. Yet Atlas - SHRUGGED! ;)

I think Hercules says it most clearly of all - and it took that Greatest of Earth's long string of Heroes TWELVE LABOURS to accomplish the Work. Labours, months, constellations and signs, how many were going to -

Ah well, I'm rambling. Yogaman, just turn the tables. What do you like to talk about? What motivates you? Where do you feel or sense a spiritual passion? Even a non-"spiritual" one? What gives or brings you meaning?

As you see/sense, clearly the Greek Myths, and astrology, the Ageless Wisdom, and the Mystery Tradition, "does it" for me. Like some colossal, Titanic (ahem, Kronos!) Muse ... the force is almost irresistable. But how, in the last analysis, am I any different than a zealous Christian Fundamentalist - if my yearning to share my learning, my burning to convey some inkling of my twinkling ... is not checked by due consideration of another person's, or group of persons', point of view? ;):eek:

Surely we all know what it feels like to be excited about something, and to want to bring our epiphany to others. I mean hey, just look at me, I'm posting here because I do feel I have something to share, but if I didn't also feel I have a great deal to gain - then why would I bother?

What does the Christian Fundamentalist feel s/he gains through witnessing, or sharing? :) I challenge folks to get past the strictly-religious lens, and grok the psychology of it all for a moment ... while not ignoring completely the Right Motivation, or Intent underlying the sharing/witnessing - and see if all doesn't come back 'round to LOVE.

Only in Love can people of totally different religious backgrounds and mindsets, with ostensibly different goals & assumptious, going into an Interfaith discussion ... come out mutually enriched, better educated, yet also one important step closer to defeating the true forces of evil that threaten our planet at this time.

We know that Light, and Love, must prevail. And Chief Seattle's misattributed quote still speaks clearly enough to the web of interconnectedness that binds us all. Like the Bodhisattva Vow, wherein ALL sentient beings must be Liberated or Enlightened, Christ speaks a message that embraces every single member of the Human Family. And if we find that we are genuinely in the presence of someone for whom words, actions, thoughts, creeds, appearances, or past experiences have become a barrier to recognizing our underlying, Fundamental Unity, and Oneness, then may the Compassion, and the Divine Understanding, of all the Saints and Masters be with all of these parties involved. As a line from an esoteric mantram runs:
May Peace Prevail On Earth
​
OM OM OM

~andrew
 
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