Thank you, Dondi ... for respecting my privacy - or your (correct) understanding that I wished to reappear
incognito as Zagreus for awhile - as well as for welcoming me back. I have so much personal karma, and dharma, to pursue, that I don't know if I can post very often, but it feels good to be welcomed ... and missed!
As Zag I did finally get around to saying it was "me," but I think this could almost be a subject, and a thread, worth pursuing unto itself. Why do some members, who obviously feel "at home" at CR in some sense of the word, feel the need to "run away" every so often (or even once), then come back and either lurk, or
put on a new guise and
start over? I'm not the first, nor the last. It probably says something about our quirky personalities, but in my own case I can't get much farther than the notion that I'm (re?)learning a great deal about Interfaith dialogue.
I could speculate about past karma, and the need to correct some grievous errors, but I don't even have to look beyond the past two years to find some prime examples ... so in that vein, I wanted to respond to your recent posts, as well as to an earlier one - and this time try to do so in the spirit of diplomacy and even-temperence.
Dondi, it's not that I don't believe in (a) God, yet I feel myself struggling with a thoughtform that comes to mind when you speak on the subjects of freewill and Divine Forgiving. I'll just own this thoughtform as mine, for simplicity's sake, and give the caveat that
I don't believe in a God separate from Humanity. In the Christian sense then, of Jehovah-God, or "Father God," my understanding is that the
Consciousness of such a being
does not distinguish Itself, or `Him/Herself' ... from Humanity's own, future-potential
Divine Self-Consciousness.
What does this mean, in practical terms ... How, then, does `G-d' relate to our
obvious much, much
less-evolved state of Manifest Divinity (in my understanding, that is - since I don't see things the way you do) ... and how does this
possible other mode of things then bear on the issues of Forgiveness, Free Will, and Grace?
I'm not sure, but I just deleted dozens of paragraphs (and replaced them anyway, bah!), so why don't I just say this: Our experiences, and beliefs, will differ ... but what we would both say, with equal zeal and zest -
is that there is a way to move forward, and to draw closer to the Spirit ... and even to Goodness - within ourselves, and for the benefit of others.
Not that you are "average" anything, nor an
average Fundamentalist, but in terms of generalizations; in fact, your own approach seems quite divergent along many lines. But let's just say you
are, or happened to be, thoroughly convinced that
only through Faith in Christ Jesus ... does Redemption lie. What then?
I would add, that as Prober put it,
I too, know that I know. And just between me, myself and I, I know that what many a Fundamentalist says,
at least the way they say it, is just plain, flat, dead wrong! So what do I do? If "thanks but no thanks" works for Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, and various others who may come knocking at my door ... then how about other situations? How about being here, like Yogaman, in the shiny brass buckle of the Bible Belt, and knowing that I'm surrounded by people who believe this way?
I think of it as nothing but karma, and I won't understand it unless I
first,
see it on neutral ground,
second, accept that this is how/what many people believe & choose to approach the Godhead, and
third,
embrace the current circumstances (again w/out value judgment) as part of the way in which the Divine Will works itself out through Humanity ... and not despite
Humanity.
I do think it helps to try and understand as much I can about the psychology of Christian Fundamentalists, but I also think this is true of
everyone else! I decided to watch a PBS special last night about Islamic Fundamentalism, and the Shah, and the present conflict occurring in Iraq (on religious and political terms, not solely through the lens of
violence, or the Western occupation). This is a much, much harder karma, a more challenging set of circumstances to face and accept, than anything like,
"here you are, living in the middle of a lot of Christian Fundamentalists."
As the show progressed, I thought to myself,
damn, I'd gladly sit and babble about Biblical crap all day long ... rather than ponder even for ten minutes what an - arghhh ... rather large, karmic
mess we have, in terms of this ancient,
deep-rooted, troubling situation in the Middle East. I found myself able to make various connections with the Mahabharata, and the Hindu teachings regarding
Kurukshetra - which, quite frankly,
no amount of Christian background, experience and reading would have been able to provide. And I thought,
Heaven help those of us here, in this country, or there, in the Middle East, who so easily fall into the error of saying,
"this is a black 'n white conflict, here is the problem, or there are the enemies."
Dear, Dear God ... what a very, very trying situation this is for all involved. And I almost wept with the people on the pilgrimage to Kharbala ... as I found myself pondering the state of Humanity with which the Christ and Masters are dealing. I asked,
How can you work with us? And here, even as an esotericist, who is supposed to have some slight clue about these things, I almost felt sick to my stomach. I felt, and feel, Humanity's hunger, because I feel my own ... and even if many people are dozens, hundreds of lives from Enlightenment/Liberation - I just could not get my heart & mind around the present circumstances.
Ironically, it was a few quick scenes of some of the modern amenities, the architecture, and some lush, green trees - presemably there in Iraq and Iran, yes, these areas which
were the heart of the modern, so-called
civilized world just 2000 short years ago when the Galilean Master's Presence was still felt more closely in that part of the world. I think things have changed, but more and more I am considering
Civilization ... the
third great Expression of a Divine Trinity, on the Planetary Scale, and in terms of Humanity.
Christ (and the Masters), Education, Spirituality and World Religions ...
these reflect the 2nd Aspect. Government, and the seed, or promise, of a future
World Parliament (League of Nations, United Nations, and eventually a
World Federation - if we can establish the Peace that is a necessary prerequisite) ... these are the 1st Aspect working Itself out. As an esotericist, I can understand things no other way. I can look to the Baha'is as doing more than pehaps any other religion, to see that the our future Government receives due nurturance in the present.
Will Humanity bring upon itself catastrophe, major calamity, before we can progress from our backwards state into
Heaven on Earth? Christian Fundamentalists aren't the only ones sensing the current challenges, and sometimes responding to the danger out of fear. All but the most apathetic, ignorant, or obviously
money-minded and
materialistically inclined are aware of our present crisis. And those of good conscience are answering the Spiritual Calling, seizing the present opportunity, and turning the potential for planetary disaster into
Hope for Renewal. But I think that some folks have an especially hard time of this.
Fundamentalists of any flavor are often vulnerable on emotional levels because this where the Divine Energy of their `Ray' affects them greatest. Ray Six allows them the sensitivity, and gives them the fiery Devotion, which characterized Master Jesus
as he is remembered through many of the Christian stories derived from the Gospel accounts. I think another, less emotionally-specific energy was also active - that of Ray 2, or Unconditional Love and Compassion. This is the energy of Buddhas and Christs, which itself has two modes, the
Love side, and the
Wisdom side ... complementary, obviously.
Every Master of the Wisdom, as Jesus, KH, Morya, Hilarion,
et al, certainly expresses Divine Love every bit as much as Divine Will, Spiritual Intellect, and so forth. But a fundamentalist who has not risen above the early challenges of the spiritual path and subdued the lower nature ... is especially impacted and strongly affected by the world of Humanity's feelings and desires. Fear works itself out here, and becomes manipulated quite strongly by the dark forces
which oppose Humanity's progress, since this threatens their material expression and control of
outer world affairs. Power politics and religious strife are just
outward manifestations of the true conflict, and it
is a fight to the death - although the Victor is known, and all that can be done is to delay the date of Victory.
Esotericists, to whom the above may make more sense than many Christians, are not immune to the emotional attacks of the dark forces, but
like those of a sensitive feeling nature (by disposition),
they have often come into a heightened emotional sensitivity despite their Ray ... and thus they experience many of the same problems and struggles as religious fundamentlists. This shows a likeness of experience, and should evoke sympathy, one for the other, as both groups of disciples or aspirants are struggling together to move the focus of consciousness
out of the world of desires and
into the world of mind. As esotericists put it, the goal is to "hold the mind steady in the Light."
{And in the world(s) of Light and Love, all ARE One, as Souls cooperate to Serve the Plan, which Christ meditates and "works out" for God - like the head of a firm, a great Spiritual Executive. There are no "unimportant peons" in this Firm; only a wrong personality orientation, or emotional reaction, could lead to this misunderstanding!}
And as for what happens next, a Christian may speak of God's Grace, and the Forgiveness that becomes possible
only at or after this point ... while the esotericist speaks of the
Soul-Infusion, or the
irradiation of the entire personality nature (the lower self) by the Soul, once Soul contact has become established .... yet to me, these are just two ways of saying the same thing. Both are something that lies ahead for many of us, not far behind perhaps for some of us, and may in fact
precisely describe the current situation for a great many of us.
As a reincarnationist, I also believe that Soul control must be
re-established in each new incarnation, though some
culminating lifetime will
firmly establish the Soul's authority over the often-rebellious personality nature
once and for all ... leading that disciple swiftly and directly to complete Self-Mastery and
Enlightenment. The language is sometimes different for Christians and esotericists, and many folks will point to supposedly
irreconcilable differences. Yet I am of the opinion that
whatever our current understanding, it must - and will - gradually give way to make new room for an
ever greater Understanding ... and I suppose to state otherwise is basically to declare:
"I am enlightened already!"
No, the "pieces may not always fit" if I try to force an understanding of the Christian (or other) Fundamentalist's situation into
my own set of spiritual "rules and tools" ... but that's not what I'm proposing or suggesting. I do think, however, that greater understanding
begins with sympathy, or with finding some point(s) of commonality from which a broader base of relationship can be established. Those who seek, unwittingly or no, to
minimize this common ground, perhaps with the assumption in mind that God's Love, Divine Forgiveness and even the Heavenly Kingdom are to be
doled out, rewarded, and appointed conditionally ... are only doing themselves and others an unkindness and a true disservice - and the karmic consequences for this will surely be severe.
We can make amends in a number of ways - and with that in mind, I'm going to try and photograph a pair of pileated woodpeckers that are visiting the trees behind my house (and landing on my deck!) ... and offer thanks for being so fortunate as to live here, and now, and to have this opportunity.
In the (long-winded) spirit of dialogue and friendship,
~andrew
