Pentateuch Wisdom

"...fossilised into the geological record...."

--> The story of the record is fascinating. The "angels" in Genesis 1:26 (called Kumara in Theosophy) created humanity, and kept a record of what they did. This record, unchanged from when the Kumara wrote it, exists today.

The record as it exists today is not in English, but in the language of the Kumara. Fortunately, the story was translated directly from the Kumaran language into English, and is the first such direct translation into a western language.
 
One point of consideration is that Revelation fundamentally altered the pre-historical vision of the Hebrew people, and that the Creation Story would necessarily be rewritten in light of the data of the Revelation that led them from polytheism to monotheism.

There is no dispute that elements of Genesis reflect the 'mythic history' of the region, but from Exodus on we're into a 'real history' (although not a history as modernism understands it), that post-dates the texts to which you allude (Chaldean and otherwise).

Just because a document is ancient, that does not make it divine, or even inspired. As we grow, so our understandings grow, and the solutions of antiquity no longer serve. In my view, polytheism (alone) cannot stand in the face of metaphysics – pantheism or panentheism has a better chance – and even polytheism invariably supports a hierarchy, whhich, in the move to monotheism, man saw that the qualities expressed by the gods were simply attributes of the one god.

So even if you were able to produce a document that reads "In the begining the gods ... " both Hellenist and Hebrew would have regarded the document as somewhat primitive, and ill-thought-through.

In like manner, of course, as a Christian, I could say the 'us' to which you constantly refer is, in fact, the Trinity. Except it isn't.

And again, the 'us' could be the Wisdom of God, spoken of in Proverbs –

I was set up from eternity, and of old, before the earth was made.
The depths were not as yet, and I was already conceived, neither had the fountains of waters as yet sprung out.
The mountains, with their huge bulk, had not as yet been established: before the hills, I was brought forth:
He had not yet made the earth, nor the rivers, nor the poles of the world.
When he prepared the heavens, I was present:
when with a certain law, and compass, he enclosed the depths:
When he established the sky above, and poised the fountains of waters:
When he compassed the sea with its bounds, and set a law to the waters that they should not pass their limits:
when he balanced the foundations of the earth; I was with him forming all things:
and was delighted every day, playing before him at all times;
Playing in the world:
and my delights were to be with the children of men.
Now, therefore, ye children, hear me:
blessed are they that keep my ways.
Hear instruction, and be wise, and refuse it not.
Blessed is the man that heareth me, and that watcheth daily at my gates, and waiteth at the posts of my doors.
He that shall find me, shall find life, and shall have salvation from the Lord. But he that shall sin against me shall hurt his own soul.
All that hate me love death.
Proverbs 8:23-36

Thomas
 
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Theosophy teaches the seven Kumara of Genesis 1:26 are the same seven thrones and spirits of Revelations 4:5.

“From the throne came flashes of lightning, and rumblings and peals of thunder, and before the throne were burning seven torches of fire, which are the seven spirits of God....” (Revelations 4:5)

Indeed, Revelations 4:5 is another description of the story Genesis refers to. Theosophy ties the two stories together. Fire is an important Theosophical symbol, and is symbolical of a cosmic principle most people can only guess at.

According to Theosophy, three of the original seven Kumara are still with us here on Earth, still directing our progress. These three august beings live at Shamballah. Yes, this is the same Shamballah of the myths and legends. (There is a good reason for these myths, as there are with all myths.) The Head Kumara is called the Lord of the World, and is the third Head Kumara for our Earth.

"During each world-period, we are told, there are three successive Lords of the World, and the present holder of the office is already the third. He resides with His three Pupils in an oasis in the Gobi desert called Shamballa, often spoken of as the Sacred Island, in remembrance of the time when it was an island in the Central Asian Sea. These four greatest of the Adepts are often called “The Children of the Fire-Mist,” since They belong to an evolution different from ours. Their bodies, though human in appearance, differ widely from ours in constitution, being rather garments assumed for convenience than bodies in the ordinary sense, since they are artificial and their particles do not change as do those of the human frame. They require no nourishment, and remain unchanged through thousands of years.

"The three Pupils, who stand at the level of the Buddha, and are called Pratyeka or Pachcheka Buddhas, assist the Lord in His work, and are Themselves destined to be our three Lords of the World....

"Once in every seven years, the Lord of the World conducts at Shamballa a great ceremony somewhat similar to the Wesak event, but on a still grander scale and of a different type, when all the Adepts and even some Initiates below that grade are invited, and have thus an opportunity to come into touch with Their great Leader. At other times He deals only with the Heads of the Official Hierarchy, except when for special reasons He summons others to His presence."

The Masters And The Path, paragraphs 1097-1099 (online)
Theosophy : The Masters and the Path by C.W. Leadbeater : AnandGholap.net

The Masters And The Path, page 297 (hardcopy)
Quest Books

Because this is Wesak season, I have included in the above-quote the story of the Wesak-like ceremony at Shamballah.
 
Nick the Pilot said:
"...fossilised into the geological record...."

--> The story of the record is fascinating. The "angels" in Genesis 1:26 (called Kumara in Theosophy) created humanity, and kept a record of what they did. This record, unchanged from when the Kumara wrote it, exists today.

The record as it exists today is not in English, but in the language of the Kumara. Fortunately, the story was translated directly from the Kumaran language into English, and is the first such direct translation into a western language.
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Where might these records be viewed by the public? Not the translations, the actual pieces of writing.
 
juantoo3 said:
Where might these records be viewed by the public? Not the translations, the actual pieces of writing.
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One very simple question for you, juantoo3 ... and to bananabrain, for that matter.

Where may we see the Mosaic Code ... viewed by the public? Not the translations, the actual pieces of writing. ;) :)

Although I probably need not say more, I would add this:

Just as those who maintain belief in the Judeo-Christian Tradition (Faith, or religion) cannot demonstrate ANY of the foundational documents of this tradition, neither can the Theosophist. What can be shown, are the articles of one's Faith. And these can be defended, in various ways - but defended from what, I think we must continually ask ourselves ...

I especially would like to hear from Thomas, how we have the original Gospels, written in - what language were they written in again?


Again, per Juan's request, so we can keep this on an even footing, Thomas:
Where might these records [source documents for Christianity, where this Tradition differs from theHebraic] be viewed by the public? Not the translations, the actual pieces of writing.​
The rest of this answer, as to where the records of Humanity's Divine origins exist, and how we may come by them ... will be as different for Theosophists, in relation to say, Buddhists, as the tenets and teachings of the Buddhist path are from the Christian.

What we cannot do, is stand and say, we have the Mosaic Code, or we have the Gospels, and claim to have any more tangible a basis for defending our Christianity, our Judaism, etc. ... than Theosophists do for saying, "the Stanzas of Dzyan exist."

Sophistic, casuistic reasoning and argument, which you do so well, Thomas, is just that. It proves nothing. Except that you have sat in a philosophy class or two, and dedicated yourself as you puruse your Divinity Degree. All admirable things, certainly, but this will not substitute for the type of proof for which Juan is asking.

He asked this of Theosophists, and Esotericists, yes. And I ask precisely the same, from the two of you, and from bananbrain. :)

Francis, for all her flippancy, has at least provided us with the one sound criticism which is uncounterable on its own ground. HPB's Secret Doctrine is not arranged as perfectly, or nearly as well, as it might have been. But you see, she didn't need a Divinity Degree, or a Masters in Ancient Hebraic, to tell her that. :eek:

~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~

But Juan, if you are serious, ask Pohwaikahine to tell you about certain pages of the Introduction to `Lemurian Scrolls.' That, at least, is a step in the right direction. Meanwhile, I know these tablets have got to be around here "somewhere" ...

Okay, okay, a second hint. In the British Museum in the permanent collection are all six volumes of `The Mahatma Letters.' Do you suppose they have a Bible somewhere in that place too? :p ;) :)

Namaskar,

andrew
 
Kindest Regards, Andrew.

AndrewX said:
One very simple question for you, juantoo3 ... and to bananabrain, for that matter.

Where may we see the Mosaic Code ... viewed by the public? Not the translations, the actual pieces of writing. ;) :)
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Ah, dodging a legitimate question by asking another. So typical, can't even give a simple straightforward answer.

AndrewX said:
Again, per Juan's request, so we can keep this on an even footing, Thomas:
Where might these records [source documents for Christianity, where this Tradition differs from theHebraic] be viewed by the public? Not the translations, the actual pieces of writing.​
The rest of this answer, as to where the records of Humanity's Divine origins exist, and how we may come by them ... will be as different for Theosophists, in relation to say, Buddhists, as the tenets and teachings of the Buddhist path are from the Christian.
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The earliest complete set are from around 400 AD, known as the Textus Receptus, and housed in the British Museum. Of course, you knew that. And there are complete OT books that date as early as 100BC, such as the Isaiah scroll found at Qumran.

If these texts you prattle on about are real, there should be ancient copies in existence. Point to one, please, if you can.

AndrewX said:
What we cannot do, is stand and say, we have the Mosaic Code, or we have the Gospels, and claim to have any more tangible a basis for defending our Christianity, our Judaism, etc. ... than Theosophists do for saying, "the Stanzas of Dzyan exist."
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Quite the contrary, multiple examples of ancient copies exist of Biblical texts, peer reviewed and verified across multiple disciplines. Multiple ancient Hindu and Buddhist texts exist. Such as they are, ancient Pagan texts exist. Where are yours?

AndrewX said:
He asked this of Theosophists, and Esotericists, yes. And I ask precisely the same, from the two of you, and from bananbrain. :)
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Despite the fact you will continue to show your prowess as a dodgeball expert, this you ask is a known matter of scholarship. Answer my question simply, without a long-winded diatribe about million year old texts pulled out of someone's nightmare infatuation with a phantom. I'm from Missouri, SHOW ME.

AndrewX said:
But Juan, if you are serious, ask Pohwaikahine to tell you about certain pages of the Introduction to `Lemurian Scrolls.' That, at least, is a step in the right direction. Meanwhile, I know these tablets have got to be around here "somewhere" ...
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Poh is not into selfish aggrandizement and is not the one throwing a dare into my face. I asked Pilot, you are answering in her stead. Fine, show me, please.
 
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juantoo3,

Please forgive me for not getting back to you sooner, but I was busy flying an airplane.

The actual pieces of writing have been safely locked away all these millions of years in an undisclosed location somewhere in Tibet, where no normal human has any access to them. The records are in the original language of that time, which is nothing like English. Sanskrit is the most recent version of that ancient language.

The records can be accessed by psychics, but only if the student is invited to look at them by the Kumara. One man's account of watching Blavatsky "read" the records is a fascinating one.

"To watch her at work was a rare and never-to-be-forgotten experience. We usually sat at opposite sides of one big table, and I could see her every movement. Her pen would be flying over the page, when she would suddenly stop, look out into space with the vacant eye of the clairvoyant seer, shorten her vision as though to look at something held invisibly in the air before her, and begin copying on her paper what she saw. The quotation finished, her eyes would resume their natural expression and she would go on writing until again stopped by a similar interruption."

T W I U

Here is a small passage of Blavatsky herself describing the record.

"An archaic manuscript — a collection of palm leaves made impermeable to water, fire, and air, by some specific unknown process — is before the writer's eye. On the first page is an immaculate white disk within a dull black ground. On the following page, the same disk, but with a central point. The first, the student knows to represent Kosmos in Eternity, before the re-awakening of still slumbering Energy, the emanation of the Word in later systems. The point in the hitherto immaculate Disk, Space and Eternity in Pralaya, denotes the dawn of differentiation."

The Secret Doctrine by H. P. Blavatsky, vol 1, Proem

Even the English translations that Theosophy has released are only a fraction of the total record. It has been said the total record would fill libraries.

Alas, the public is not allowed access to the records. Look at how the library of Alexandria was destroyed. Look at all the book burnings that have happened over the centuries. Look at how the Taliban blew up the so-called statues of Buddha in Afganistan. (They were not statues of Buddha, Theosophy teaches they were life-size statues of the giants mentioned in the Bible. These are the very same Biblical giants that Theosophy says built Stonehenge by hand.)

Theosophy teaches that all of us will eventually reach Nirvana. At that time, each one of us will gain access to the records. (It is a day I am very much looking forward to.) Until then, we must rely on the glimses of the records given to psychics every few centuries. (Such glimses did not end in Biblical times, but have continued on into the modern age, according to Theosophy.)

I hope I have answered your question. Please feel free to ask for any additional information.
 
To add to Nick's comments, I would submit, that another student since HPB's day has indeed been invited to read portions of the Library of Sanat Kumara. I have already mentioned the title of the book in question (not even counting the dictations of Master H, via `Temple of the People'), and I have said that a small sample of that writing can be examined. A word to the wise ...

Yet Juan, the great man of faith, demands show me. Meanwhile, The Buddha taught this:
that we must not believe in a thing said merely because it is said; nor traditions because they have been handed down from antiquity; nor rumors, as such; nor writings by sages, because sages wrote them; nor fancies that we may suspect to have been inspired in us by a Deva (that is, in presumed spiritual inspiration); nor from inferences drawn from some haphazard assumption we may have made; nor [XVI] because of what seems an analogical necessity; nor on the mere authority of our teachers or masters.​
But we are to believe when the writing, doctrine, or saying is corroborated by our own reason and consciousness.

"For this," says he in concluding, "I taught you not to believe merely because you have heard, but when you believed of your consciousness, then to act accordingly and abundantly."
​
Juan, I can't give you the proof you seek, because I do not have these original copies, nor has the Lord of the World invited me (in present time and space) to read His Library. ;)

That HPB was invited to read, that others since her time have done so, and the results have been explicitly made available, at the request (via Invocation) of Humanity - and via a corresponding, Divinely Purposeful RESPONSE from Shambhala and Hierarchy ... is enough for me. And for that, I give THANKS ... :)

You might find it interesting, as I am finding it, to view a PBS series regarding The Mormons. In the first 20 minutes, which I watched tonight, I noticed a great deal of similarity ... between the accounts of the young Joseph Smith, and the early life of HPB, as well as the inspired, theophanic experiences of Smith, not altogether unlike HPB's encounters with `her Protector' (Master M.).

Certainly later, after having been trained in Tibet, HPB could consciously and at Will, put herself in rapport - both with various Masters, and thus with inspiration and illumination of one sort, yet, more importantly, with her own, Inner Self, or Soul/Higher Self, without which the former is impossible.

The result? Well, Nick has said enough!

Yet I will say, in practical terms, what he might or might not dare.

In short, Juan, even what original copies of the world's oldest texts may yet exist (safeguarded in KH's subterranean museum) ... must be protected. There will come a day, when they can be shown, and properly studied, and better understood by the world at large. That day is not yet.

For, even today, were certain originals produced - there are certain elements still active in our world, whom and which, for reasons you might be able to imagine .... would destroy them. :eek: :( :eek:

And thus Truth, like a White Dove, is not always capable of landing. NAILS, when they meet with ....

- but I will stop there. It is Wesak. I know only PEACE PEACE PEACE

Namskar,

~andrew
 
Andrew,

Here is a quote I found regarding the Kumara.

"The records of every great religion show the presence of such [Kumaran] Supermen, so full of the Divine Life that again and again they have been taken as the very representatives of God Himself. In every religion, especially at its founding, has such an One appeared, and in many cases more than one. The Hindus have their great Avataras or divine incarnations, such as Shri Krishna, Shri Shankaracharya, and the Lord Gautama Buddha, whose religion has spread over the Far East, and a great galaxy of Rishis, of Saints, of Teachers; and these Great Ones took interest not only in awakening men' s spiritual natures, but also in all affairs that made for their well-being on earth. All who belong to the Christian world know, or ought to know, much about the great succession of prophets and teachers and saints...."

paragraph 8 online

Leadbeater, Charles, The Masters and the Path (online)
Theosophy : The Masters and the Path by C.W. Leadbeater : AnandGholap.net

Leadbeater, Charles, The Masters and the Path (hardcopy)
Quest Books

Here are some more helpful links.

Sanat Kumara - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Shambhala - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Great White Brotherhood - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I have been reading a few of the I AM webpages online that say Sanat Kumara is the Guardian-Spirit of Earth. I would disagree, I feel that Sanat Kumara and the Guardian-Spirit of Earth are two differet entities.
 
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Hi everybody!

I have stumbled upon another quote from Blavatsky recounting her psychic readings of the ancient texts.

"Well, you see, what I do is this. I make what I can only describe as a sort of vacuum in the air before me, and fix my sight and my will upon it, and soon scene after scene passes before me like the successive pictures of a diorama, or, if I need a reference or information from some book, I fix my mind intently, and the astral counterpart of the book appears, and from it I take what I need. The more perfectly my mind is freed from distractions and mortifications, the more energy and intentness it possesses, the more easily I can do this; but today, after all the vexations I have undergone in consequence of the letter from X., I could not concentrate properly, and each time I tried I got the quotations all wrong. Master says it is right now, so let us go in and have some tea."

from Countess Constance Wachtmeister - Reminiscences of H.P. Blavatsky and The Secret Doctrine
 
Sanat Kumara, meaning essentially `Eternal Youth,' is also described as the Youth of 16 Summers, while we are told `He' came to Venus, with 105 Kumaras, from the planet Venus some ~18 million years ago. These numbers are close, and it seems a Summer here is meant to represent a million years.

I recall, as Nick has shared, that the present Lord of the World is the Third, and this means that `He' will see to it that every last human Pilgrim makes it into the Father's House (in some understanding of this symbolic expression) before we are transferred to the next globe whereupon human evolution will continue - Mercury, as I recall (clearly the etheric portions!).

Of the original 105 Kumaras, Seven, actually, have remained. Three are exoteric, three are esoteric. Some of these are the Pratyeka Buddhas, and we should consider that in many scenarios the terms `Buddha' and `Kumara' can be used interchangeably.

Of the Pratyeka Buddhas, DK via Alice Bailey tells us some basic information. They are the esoteric `Heads' of the three, non-human kingdoms of evolution on planet Earth, just as Sanat Kumara is the head of the Human. Thus, the mineral, vegetable, and animal kingdoms all have a Kumara at their head. These Kumaras, as I recall, are also the three `Lords of the World' during Humanity's evolution upon Mercury. They are thus, the students of Sanat Kumara, having followed him from Venus just as the students of ANY Master's Ashram will trek with that Master wherever He goes, whilst the Ashram is externalized.

In terms of the chakras of our Planetary Logos, the Seven Kumaras may correspond (I am venturing a speculation) to the seven esoteric head centers ... clearly in the physical body only of the Logos.

As for the Spirit of the Earth, this is a vast Deva-Life on the involutionary arc, and is not Sanat Kumara at all.

Sanat Kumara is the `One Initiator' of esoteric teachings. It is the Soul of a human being Whom and which administers the probationary initiations, the Christ (or Bodhisattva) is the Hierophant for the Birth and Baptism (Initiations One and Two), and Sanat Kumara administers the Third, Fourth and Fifth directly. Prior to this, His Presence is felt and known as an upright STAR, flashing forth in blinding Brilliance to the candidate ...


... and prior to the Transfiguration, no one "sees" Sanat Kumara directly. This figures in with the story of Moses and the `Burning Bush,' as also in the Aaronic Blessing of Moses' brother, known both in Christianity and Judaism:
May the Lord bless you, and keep you
May the Lord shine His face upon you, and favor you
May the Lord lift His countenance upon you, and grant you peace
​
~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~

There's a lot more said in `Initiations Human and Solar,' by Alice Bailey. Worth investigating ...

... and something else I've come across, in HPB's 3rd vol. of the SD, is that Sri Sankaracharya was in fact, one of the Kumaras other than Sanat, asked to clothe himself in human form, and to continue Shakyamuni Buddha's Teachings ... or rather, to help correct certain errors, or steer the outcome of the initial effort.

Namaskar,

~andrew
 
Re: ~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~

Kindest Regards, Nick the Pilot!

BTW, welcome to CR!
Nick the Pilot said:
juantoo3,

Please forgive me for not getting back to you sooner, but I was busy flying an airplane.
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No need to apologize, life gets in the way of most conversations around here.

Nick the Pilot said:
The actual pieces of writing have been safely locked away all these millions of years in an undisclosed location somewhere in Tibet, where no normal human has any access to them. The records are in the original language of that time, which is nothing like English. Sanskrit is the most recent version of that ancient language.
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Thank you very much for your response.

I do not wish to seem rude, but does this not seem a bit far fetched for an intelligent mind? If this comment appears rude, then please ignore it and pretend it was not said and I will bother you no more.
 
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Juan,

You said,

"If this comment appears rude, then please ignore it and pretend it was not said...."

--> It is not rude at all. Your comment is an open-minded look into the nature of the human race, and is welcome.

"...and I will bother you no more...."

--> I appreciate your sensitivity to the issues of religious tolerance. You seem to be religiously tolerant, and I thank you for that.

"...does this not seem a bit far fetched for an intelligent mind?"

--> I admit it sounds far-fetched, but it has been part of my belief system for some time. It makes sense to me, and I have examined it critically over the years (It continues to pass my critical examinations). The part that makes sense to me is, whoever created humanity probably would have left a record.

Does that make sense to you? Please show me how it may or may not make sense.
 
Re: ~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~

Kindest Regards, Pilot!

Thank you for your understanding response!
Nick the Pilot said:
I admit it sounds far-fetched, but it has been part of my belief system for some time. It makes sense to me, and I have examined it critically over the years (It continues to pass my critical examinations). The part that makes sense to me is, whoever created humanity probably would have left a record.

Does that make sense to you? Please show me how it may or may not make sense.
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I think I understand what you are saying, yet saddled as I am with Greek logic, I am afraid I cannot say it makes sense to me. I can appreciate it works for you.

That the Creator may have left a record may or may not be plausible in the sense you suggest. Certainly, in the Judaic tradition that was added to the basis of Christianity, a record was supplied by the Creator. We call this the Bible. I have no doubt you understand this.

I want to believe likewise for Hinduism, Buddhism and Paganism. We have ancient records available to scholarship.

I find it difficult to digest the possibility of written records from a time humanity was only just learning to walk on two legs, or even before. We had no mastery of fire until 200 thousand years ago by the most generous estimates, and gaging by the development of the hyoid bone we haven't had speech for but about that length of time, and that reserved strictly to Cro Magnon. Some suggest Neandertal were incapable of speech (while others suggest a rather gutteral vocal tone). The oldest art work, I could argue the precursor to writing, only dates back in generous estimates to around 80 thousand years ago. In short, I'm afraid writing that is millions of years old does not make logical sense to me.

You asked, apologies if I offend.
 
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Juan,

You said,

"...the possibility of written records from a time humanity was only just learning to walk on two legs, or even before."

--> The records were not written by neanderthal man -- that would have been impossible (and does not make sense, which is what you are saying). The records were written by Beings I can only describe as "angels".

This gets us into a new topic. Some religions portray humanity as being divinely created, then being "dumped" on the planet to fend for themselves. Theosophy teaches that it did not happen this way at all. Theosophy teaches the same "angels" who created humanity have been with us the whole time, every step of the way, giving more guidance than most people can imagine. (I am always amazed by people who think a lot of guidance was given during Biblical times, with such guidance suddenly stopping after the Bible was finished. That does not make sense, and it is not what Theosophy teaches -- but I am getting too far off-topic here.)

"You asked...."

--> I am glad I did. Theosophy encourages questions. Theosophy is not here to just create another set of dusty dogmas. Theosophy is here to encourage us to think and analyze everything. Theosophy will never hide behind dogma. Your questions are good. The more the better! Ask more questions!
 
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