Gospel inconsistencies

Thomas does this mean now that you actually believe in Sola Scripture. Thats what it sounded like to me.

No I don't. Furthermore, looking at the answer given above, I would suggest that a dependency of Scripture alone is flawed. The argument against Sola Scriptura, of course, is who decided what was Scripture and what wasn't?

The second is that if the individual becomes the sole arbiter, then man has determined he is himself the arbiter of truth. As we know that not all man understand all things equally, then God is hostage to he who shouts the loudest.

The utter dependence on the guidance of the Holy Spirit, and the 'shutting down' of the reasoning and critical faculty – "I don't need to think, God will tell me what to do" – is to me contra the meaning of Scripture – "Seek and ye shall find", for example, and the story of the talents, the foolish virgins ... all point to the error of this.

To me, it is free-wheeling, or coasting ... one is obliged to make no effort to understand anything, Scriupture is obvious, no effort to do anything ... I am a firm believer that 'The Lord will provide', but that does not mean that man can sit down and put his feet up, and wait for the Lord to get on with it.

I thought Catholics taught that the bible should only be interpeted through church teaching in context of Sacred Tradition?
Not quite, but rather that Tradition provides the most accurate context within which to understand what the Bible is saying ... one is not obliged to accept my reasoning on Gospel inconsistency, but it is reasonable, and credible, and in fact more reasonable and more credible than some of the nonsense that bible critics are apt to spout.

Without Tradition, anybody is entitled to interpret the Bible to mean anything they like.

Thomas
 
If one understands the point and purpose of the Gospel testimonies, then the inconsistencies are explained.

...what I am saying is that although there might be material inconsistency in the account, there is a formal agreement about the origin and nature, the proimise and mission, of the Incarnate Son.

Thomas

I don't have a stake in the sola scriptura debate, so I'll be withdrawing at this point, but I appreciate your responses, and I didn't want to leave you hanging.

Do we agree then that the geneologies do not represent an actual bloodline, but rather function as a literary device? This seems to be what you're saying.
 
Thomas was making the point we had to be reasonable.

Sola scriptura (Latin ablative, "by scripture alone") is the assertion that the Bible as God's written word is self-authenticating, clear (perspicuous) to the rational reader, its own interpreter ("Scripture interprets Scripture"), and sufficient of itself to be the only source of Christian doctrine. from Wiki.

Well reasonable and rational are basically the exact same word.
First I find it interesting you pointing to wiki when if I remember correctly you didn't feel it a reliable source in the past...Second I thought I'd post the one link you didn't, to Sola scriptura... third, assertion is an interesting word... to state positively usually in anticipation of denial or objection, implies stating confidently without need for proof or regard for evidence...fourth the reading gets interesting down at the bottom when you follow your wiki links...
 
Thomas was making the point we had to be reasonable.

Sola scriptura (Latin ablative, "by scripture alone") is the assertion that the Bible as God's written word is self-authenticating, clear (perspicuous) to the rational reader, its own interpreter ("Scripture interprets Scripture"), and sufficient of itself to be the only source of Christian doctrine. from Wiki.

Well reasonable and rational are basically the exact same word.

Thanx for pointing out the obvious... :)

I know what Sola Scriptura is and I realize that thomas used a word in his post that is similar to a word from the Sola Scriptura wiki...

Still seems a bit UNREASONABLE and IRRATIONAL to glean from this...
Originally Posted by Thomas
When reason goes out the window ... anything becomes possible in the name of God.

I see it as a surrender of the human faculty, not to God, which faith demands, but rather a kind of self-induced blindness. God gave us minds to think with ... we may think the wrong thing, at times, but to think not at all is an offence against god and our God-given nature.Thomas

That someone is a supporter of the Sola Scriptura theory...

Since it would be completely possible to be a reasonable and rational person and not believe in the theory of Sola Scriptura...

Thats why I wasnt seeing the connection...

Peace & Love
 
First I find it interesting you pointing to wiki when if I remember correctly you didn't feel it a reliable source in the past...Second I thought I'd post the one link you didn't, to Sola scriptura... third, assertion is an interesting word... to state positively usually in anticipation of denial or objection, implies stating confidently without need for proof or regard for evidence...fourth the reading gets interesting down at the bottom when you follow your wiki links...

No fair pulling out the hypocrite card.

You are trying to get apples out of oranges..

wiki is a great source of information for a lot of things but I wouldnt count on it as being a viable means of getting accurate biblical information or even Christian thought.
 
Do we agree then that the geneologies do not represent an actual bloodline, but rather function as a literary device? This seems to be what you're saying.

Not quite. In fact I would go so far as to say there are a number of viable theses offering explanations of the two genealogies. It's also worth noting that even Jesus' enemies, eg the Sanhedrin, accept that He was of Davidic descent and thus of royal blood.

What I am saying is that the geneologies make a point, and the point differs, according to the audience (Jew or Gentile).

Matthew's genealogy goes only back to Abraham (to show the Jewish character of the King); Luke's goes back to Adam (to show the universal aspect of the Savior). Matthew's emphasizes Jesus' royalty. Luke simply focusses on His humanity.

It is generally accepted that the genealogy in Matthew belongs to Joseph's family, and the one in Luke applies to Mary's line. (The historical evidence is fairly strong that both Mary and Joseph were of the house of David.)

To say that the genealogies are fictions, or mythic devices, has the least support of all in scholarly circles. Also, if Luke and Matthew used Q as a source, how did one or the other manage to make such a mess of copying a list of names? Further, if we accept the second most common source theory, that Luke had Matthew and Mark to work from, same question applies.

Again, dealing with recent history, to start making unsubstantiated claims about lineage would have been easy for the Jewish authorities to ridicule.

Thomas
 
Kindest Regards, Thomas!
It is generally accepted that the genealogy in Matthew belongs to Joseph's family, and the one in Luke applies to Mary's line. (The historical evidence is fairly strong that both Mary and Joseph were of the house of David.)
There is always the possibility I am mistaken, but I understood Mary's lineage to be of the house of Levi; to wit, her aunt Elizabeth was pregnant with John the Baptist (Jesus' cousin) at the same time, and Elizabeth was married to a Temple Priest (whose name escapes me at this moment) who was struck dumb the length of his wife's pregnancy. Now, I suppose it could be fairly stated that a son of Levi could marry a daughter of Judah, but would that not disqualify him from the priesthood? It most certainly would disqualify the child from the priesthood, if the maternal line (the infamous "Jewish Mother" syndrome) is the line to which the child succeeds.

Elizabeth's sister was Mary's mother...ergo if Elizabeth had to be of the house of Levi to be a suitable wife for a priest...then Mary's mother must of necessity be of the house of Levi as well...and by extension so was Mary. Hence the simultaneaous association of Messiah to both the throne and the priesthood. One could argue emphasis on the priesthood, due to maternal lineage in defference to traditional Jewish cultural norms.

At least, this is how I understand this.
 
First I find it interesting you pointing to wiki when if I remember correctly you didn't feel it a reliable source in the past...Second I thought I'd post the one link you didn't, to Sola scriptura... third, assertion is an interesting word... to state positively usually in anticipation of denial or objection, implies stating confidently without need for proof or regard for evidence...fourth the reading gets interesting down at the bottom when you follow your wiki links...
Ok Wil has a burr in his ass now.
First Wiki has been known to be wrong and everyone on here knows that.
Second a definiton from Wiki is not saying everything on there is 100% accurate and it should be considered gospel.
 
Ok Wil has a burr in his ass now.
First Wiki has been known to be wrong and everyone on here knows that.
Second a definiton from Wiki is not saying everything on there is 100% accurate and it should be considered gospel.

A burr in his ass? I have to admit to something. I didn't know until a few days ago, how subjective Wikipedia was.

So, not everyone knows everything...not even present company...

v/r

Joshua
 
A burr in his ass? I have to admit to something. I didn't know until a few days ago, how subjective Wikipedia was.

So, not everyone knows everything...not even present company...

v/r

Joshua
Ok the burr was for the whole calling me a hypocrite bit cause I used a definition from Wiki.

Sorry I figured all here knew that especially some parts of wiki are subjective to put it nice.
 
Ok the burr was for the whole calling me a hypocrite bit cause I used a definition from Wiki.

Sorry I figured all here knew that especially some parts of wiki are subjective to put it nice.
No burr in my ass, and I don't believe I called you a hypocrite (I thought FS put those words in my mouth) I did ask how on one hand you can deride others for using wiki and then reference no less than 4 wiki pages in one paragraph. Depending on your response I may have the urge to call it hypocritical, I seriously doubt that I would thou, but I have yet to see a response so as to make that decision. You may have a logical reason in which to defend your actions of using a site which you don't feel others have a right to use in their defense....I am awaiting further information..
 
I quoted a definition off wiki that happens to be a correct definiton by the way. I did not quote Wiki to prove anything one way or another or rely on any facts found on Wiki.
 
Thomas was making the point we had to be reasonable.

Sola scriptura (Latin ablative, "by scripture alone") is the assertion that the Bible as God's written word is self-authenticating, clear (perspicuous) to the rational reader, its own interpreter ("Scripture interprets Scripture"), and sufficient of itself to be the only source of Christian doctrine. from Wiki.

Well reasonable and rational are basically the exact same word.
I quoted a definition off wiki that happens to be a correct definiton by the way. I did not quote Wiki to prove anything one way or another or rely on any facts found on Wiki.
Hence my confusion, the last link references examples of Christian Doctrine
and on your Christian link I like:
Christians believe that all people should strive to follow Christ in their everyday actions. For many, this includes obedience to the Ten Commandments[64] [65] This love includes such injunctions as "feed the hungry" and "shelter the homeless", and applies to friend and enemy alike. Though the relationship between charity and religious practice are sometimes taken for granted today, as Martin Goodman has observed, "charity in the Jewish and Christian sense was unknown to the pagan world."[66] Other Christian practices include acts of piety such as prayer and Bible reading.
I also honor your posting a page which is willing to discuss the issues...
Current controversies and criticisms Main article: Criticism of Christianity
See also: Criticism of the Bible There are many controversies surrounding Christianity as to its influences and history.
  • Although historians generally agree that Jesus existed, a few writers propose that Jesus is a myth,[93] and have aimed at reconstructing the historical Jesus. Some such writers depict Jesus as a metaphor for spiritual awakening or a fictional figure based on Egyptian religion.
  • Some writers consider Paul to be the founding figure of Christianity, pointing to the extent of his writings and the scope of his missionary work.[94] See also Pauline Christianity.
  • Members of the Jesus Seminar, and other Biblical scholars, have argued that the historical Jesus never claimed to be divine. They also reject the historicity of the empty tomb and thus a bodily resurrection, and several other events narrated in the gospels. They assert that Gospel accounts describing these things are probably literary fabrications.[95]
  • Adherents of Judaism generally believe that followers of Christianity misinterpret passages from the Old Testament, or Tanakh. (See also Judaism and Christianity.)
  • Muslims believe that the Christian doctrine of the Trinity is incompatible with monotheism, and they reject the Christian teaching that Jesus is the Son of God, though they affirm the virgin birth and view him as a prophet preceding Muhammad.[96] The Qur'an also uses the title "Messiah", though with a different meaning.[97][98] Muslims dispute the historical occurrence of the crucifixion of Jesus (believing that while a crucifixion occurred, it was not of Jesus).[99] Muslims also believe that while Islam's holy book, the Quran, is the word of God, today's Bible has been corrupted because it has gone through a human editing process.[100]
  • And under your bible link there is a tremendous amount of information regarding this topic as well...of course one has to read all the way to the bottom..
    The critical analysis of authorship now encompasses every book of the bible. Every book in turn has been hypothesized to bear traces of multiple authorship, even the book of Obadiah, which is only a single page. In some cases the traditional view on authorship has been overturned; in others, additional support, at least in part has been found.
    no burr in my saddle, I was just attempting to insure that even if you still weren't enamored by wiki, you were ok with the links you provided for further research on the topic of Biblical and Gospel inconsistencies.
 
We know what you think about Christ and the Bible Wil yet your allowed to slander as much as you like cause we can not offend anyone that might not actually believe the Bible.
Thats why people can slam everything and be fine but let someone stick to biblical christianity alone and God help him on here.
Master Twister is your new name on here from now on. You want this personal fine.
 
We know what you think about Christ and the Bible Wil yet your allowed to slander as much as you like cause we can not offend anyone that might not actually believe the Bible.
Thats why people can slam everything and be fine but let someone stick to biblical christianity alone and God help him on here.
Master Twister is your new name on here from now on. You want this personal fine.
I know you are aware that Christ is my elder brother and wayshower, and that the bible is my main and favorite scriptural reference. You've often referred to me twisting your words, I'm fairly used to it, although usually what I do is question. My thoughts and words are an open book for everyone to read...and I appreciate that yours are as well. You are one of my favorite bible thumpers. You don't sugar coat scriptures, but I can't understand how you can't work with the variances....we've all proved we pick and choose scripture that fits our paradigm, I prefer the aspects of love, forgivness, the divine nature of us all, and us working to the ideal path as displayed by Christ.
 
...flip sides of the same blessed coin...:rolleyes: you two give it a rest, eh?

(i can't hear myself read)...:p
 
Thats why people can slam everything and be fine but let someone stick to biblical christianity alone and God help him on here.

Hello...

I would like to say that others are slammed here as well... I raise a couple of questions in other threads and was called a liar... a wolf in sheeps clothing... and a heretic... FOR RAISING SOME QUESTIONS...

"Biblical Christianity"... who exactly do you mean... well considering there are about 38 major denominations in the United States and over 50 different complete english translations of the bible... I am not sure which group you mean... many of those consider the bible to be inerrant and literal and yet have very different interpretations of the bible.... and have wildly variant doctrines...

I can speak from experience that in my 1st year of seminary... from the pulpit... the Dean stated that "WE" ( the denomination I was involved in ) were the best thing going and that "WE" had a special blessing from god... and a mission to share what we know with the world... I also had friends in other seminaries with similar experiences...

Bible colleges and seminaries can be much like boot camp.. IMHO... you got to tear people down then build them up... its a programming thing... and then as you leave those places you, with the purest of intentions, head out to convert to world... to what... ??? to my doctrine... ack!!!

I should have been sharing the love of god... but instead I was spewing church dogma... and I did it for years... well thats why I talk about love... and find agreement with those that walk in the love of god...

WOW... sorry got off on a tangent there... preaching to myself... woot... I love that... Sorry DOR that wasnt pointed at you... lol

Anyway... lol...

There are a lot of different "Biblical" views in christianity... and everyone is entitled to thiers!! =)

Peace & Love
 
Hello...

I would like to say that others are slammed here as well... I raise a couple of questions in other threads and was called a liar... a wolf in sheeps clothing... and a heretic... FOR RAISING SOME QUESTIONS...

"Biblical Christianity"... who exactly do you mean... well considering there are about 38 major denominations in the United States and over 50 different complete english translations of the bible... I am not sure which group you mean... many of those consider the bible to be inerrant and literal and yet have very different interpretations of the bible.... and have wildly variant doctrines...

I can speak from experience that in my 1st year of seminary... from the pulpit... the Dean stated that "WE" ( the denomination I was involved in ) were the best thing going and that "WE" had a special blessing from god... and a mission to share what we know with the world... I also had friends in other seminaries with similar experiences...

Bible colleges and seminaries can be much like boot camp.. IMHO... you got to tear people down then build them up... its a programming thing... and then as you leave those places you, with the purest of intentions, head out to convert to world... to what... ??? to my doctrine... ack!!!

I should have been sharing the love of god... but instead I was spewing church dogma... and I did it for years... well thats why I talk about love... and find agreement with those that walk in the love of god...

WOW... sorry got off on a tangent there... preaching to myself... woot... I love that... Sorry DOR that wasnt pointed at you... lol

Anyway... lol...

There are a lot of different "Biblical" views in christianity... and everyone is entitled to thiers!! =)

Peace & Love

Kinda hard to call anyone a "liar" for "asking a question...don't you think? Can only be called a "liar" if one gives a response that others know is false, or think is false.

If you didn't lie...don't sweat their judgement. God takes care of His own...

If He is for you...who can be against you?

And how can asking a question, be a lie? Something isn't right here.
 
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