Gospel inconsistencies

I am obliged to say at this point that Fundamentalist Christianity in the US is currently punching way above its weight, and theologically it's turning back the clock.
:)
Fundamentalism to me seems to ignore reason, and ignore faith, but rely on fear, silence and superstition...
Ignore reason? Maybe. And that's okay with me. Ignore faith? I see it as being evidence of increased faith. ie doing the right thing because G-d says so. I don't need to know why.
It has ever been axiomatic to Christianity that faith does not invalidate reason, faith must be reasonable, but faith is not obliged to accept the latest cultural whim without putting it to the test.
I certainly agree with the last part, I just don't think faith needs to be (or be perceived to be) reasonable.
 
I am obliged to say at this point that Fundamentalist Christianity in the US is currently punching way above its weight, and theologically it's turning back the clock.


Thomas

Fundamentalist convictions:
1. The supreme authority of scripture asa source of knowledge of God and a guide to Christian living.

2. The majesty of Jesus Christ, both as incarnate God and Lord as the Savior of sinful humanity.

3. The Lordship of the Holy Spirit.

4. The need for personal conversion.

5.The priority of evangelism for both individual Christians and the church as a whole.

6. The importance of the Christian community for spiritual nourishment, fellowship, and growth.

I realize convictions are different from faulty perceptions...

I'm all for forward moving clocks, one should never stay stuck in the past. Didn't the Catholic Church forgive Capernicus only after Vatican 2? Some clocks move v e r y v e r y s l o w .
 
"I realize convictions are different from faulty perceptions..." pattimax

Convictions are also different than accurate perceptions...

Peace & Love
 
Ignore reason? Maybe. And that's okay with me.

When reason goes out the window ... anything becomes possible in the name of God.

Ignore faith? I see it as being evidence of increased faith.
I see it as a surrender of the human faculty, not to God, which faith demands, but rather a kind of self-induced blindness. God gave us minds to think with ... we may think the wrong thing, at times, but to think not at all is an offence against god and our God-given nature.

Does God save?

Do you look, then, when you cross the road?

If yes, are you lacking in faith? If no, are you testing God?

ie doing the right thing because G-d says so. I don't need to know why. I certainly agree with the last part, I just don't think faith needs to be (or be perceived to be) reasonable.

Sorry, Prober, but my blood runs cold at these words ... that's been the excuse all the way down through history ...

Thomas
 
Prober said:
I just don't think faith needs to be (or be perceived to be) reasonable.

I have to agree with Thomas on this one. The reason for the formation and sustainability of so many cults is the ignorance of their followers. Ours is a reasonable faith:

"But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:" - I Peter 3:15

"And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures," - Acts 17:2

"And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.
These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so." - Acts 17:10-11

"Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool." - Isaiah 1:18

When it comes down to the historic Christian faith, we better be reasonable about it. For if we cannot convince ourselves it is reasonable, how are we to tell others?
 
When reason goes out the window ... anything becomes possible in the name of God.
Not with the Holy Spirit as a failsafe (imo).
I see it as a surrender of the human faculty, not to God, which faith demands, but rather a kind of self-induced blindness. God gave us minds to think with ... we may think the wrong thing, at times, but to think not at all is an offence against god and our God-given nature.
I see it as using your mind up to the point of second-guessing G-d and then not having to understand His reasoning.
Does God save?

Do you look, then, when you cross the road?

If yes, are you lacking in faith? If no, are you testing God?
To not look on purpose would be presumptuous (imo) unless G-d told you not to look. I think I see where you're going with this. I'll have to think about it more...
Sorry, Prober, but my blood runs cold at these words ... that's been the excuse all the way down through history ...

Thomas
Without the Holy Spirit as guide, I'd agree with you. But how can you go wrong with the Holy Spirit talking to you all the time?

Best regards,
Mark
 
I have to agree with Thomas on this one. The reason for the formation and sustainability of so many cults is the ignorance of their followers.
Because they don't listen to the Holy Spirit (imo).
Ours is a reasonable faith:

"But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:" - I Peter 3:15

"And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures," - Acts 17:2

"And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.
These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so." - Acts 17:10-11

"Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool." - Isaiah 1:18

When it comes down to the historic Christian faith, we better be reasonable about it. For if we cannot convince ourselves it is reasonable, how are we to tell others?

I agree that our Christian faith is reasonable because it's reasonable for us to obey G-d without question. He's never let us down. He's never shown unreasonableness to be in His character. Since we know we can trust in Him, it's reasonable to do so.

However, we must not hold back on doing what G-d tells us until we can convince ourselves that His is a reasonable request.

In other words, I believe that when G-d says jump, and the Holy Spirit confirms His truth, we should immediately jump.
 
I agree that our Christian faith is reasonable because it's reasonable for us to obey G-d without question. He's never let us down. He's never shown unreasonableness to be in His character. Since we know we can trust in Him, it's reasonable to do so.

However, we must not hold back on doing what G-d tells us until we can convince ourselves that His is a reasonable request.

In other words, I believe that when G-d says jump, and the Holy Spirit confirms His truth, we should immediately jump.


Ah, I understand where you are coming from now. You are talking about actionable faith, such a when Abraham without question obeyed God when He told Him to sacrifice his son, Isaac, which to me, had I'd been Abraham, probably would not have deemed this a reasonable request.
 
Ah, I understand where you are coming from now. You are talking about actionable faith, such a when Abraham without question obeyed God when He told Him to sacrifice his son, Isaac, which to me, had I'd been Abraham, probably would not have deemed this a reasonable request.

YES! The Bible is full of such stories. Great examples of faith, not necessarily "reasonable" by human standards.:)
 
It is not a simple as it appears.

There is a decent explanation of the geneology question found here. It deals specifically with the problem of Matthew's geneology in the issue of Jechonias, to whom there is a curse from which no ruler of Israel will emerge from that line, as indicated in Jeremiah 22:28-30. The article sums up as follows:



ETA: I think the article in the quote above makes the mistake of saying that Jesus' adoptive father was Jacob, when it should read Joseph. But that is of little consequence.

How do we know Eli (Heli) was Mary's father? Do we have any kind of corroberation on that? Anything in the Bible itself?

Though few commentators adhere to this view of St. Luke's genealogy, the name of Mary's father, Heli, agrees with the name given to Our Lady's father in a tradition founded upon the report of the Protoevangelium of James, an apocryphal Gospel which dates from the end of the second century. According to this document the parents of Mary are Joachim and Anna. Now, the name Joachim is only a variation of Heli or Eliachim, substituting one Divine name (Yahweh) for the other (Eli, Elohim). The tradition as to the parents of Mary, found in the Gospel of James, is reproduced by St. John Damascene [24], St. Gregory of Nyssa [25], St. Germanus of Constantinople [26], pseudo-Epiphanius [27], pseudo-Hilarius [28], and St. Fulbert of Chartres [29]. Some of these writers add that the birth of Mary was obtained by the fervent prayers of Joachim and Anna in their advanced age. As Joachim belonged to the royal family of David, so Anna is supposed to have been a descendant of the priestly family of Aaron; thus Christ the Eternal King and Priest sprang from both a royal and priestly family [30].
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: The Blessed Virgin Mary

This may be absolutely historical, I don't know and I have no real way of telling. But the fact that it comes from an apocryphal gospel written at least a centruy and a half after the fact tends to make me think that someone was buffing the myth to pave over an obvious inconsistency. What do you think of this Thomas?
 
Documented evidence? I used to think the same thing, but it isn't true.

Sorry Pattimax... I am not following you... lol

I dont think accurate perception and Documented evidence are the same either... lol

I think we are not on the same page... lol...

But... as always I am tired... been a long week... :)

Peace
 
When reason goes out the window ... anything becomes possible in the name of God.

I see it as a surrender of the human faculty, not to God, which faith demands, but rather a kind of self-induced blindness. God gave us minds to think with ... we may think the wrong thing, at times, but to think not at all is an offence against god and our God-given nature.Thomas
Thomas does this mean now that you actually believe in Sola Scripture. Thats what it sounded like to me.
I thought Catholics taught that the bible should only be interpeted through church teaching in context of Sacred Tradition?
 
Thomas does this mean now that you actually believe in Sola Scripture. Thats what it sounded like to me.
I thought Catholics taught that the bible should only be interpeted through church teaching in context of Sacred Tradition?

I am missing the connection between what Thomas said and the concept of Sola Scriptura...

Peace & Love
 
How do we know Eli (Heli) was Mary's father? ... Do we have any kind of corroberation on that? ... This may be absolutely historical ... but the fact that it comes from an apocryphal gospel written at least a century and a half after the fact tends to make me think that someone was buffing the myth to pave over an obvious inconsistency. What do you think of this Thomas?

If one understands the point and purpose of the Gospel testimonies, then the inconsistencies are explained.

Matthew's geneaology follows a Near Eastern literary practice, there are parallels with the Book of Numbers, Chronicles and Joshua. In more recent times, King Abdullah of Jordan presented his own bloodline, back to the Prophet Mohammed. So again, we must look at this text as a literary device, and ask why is this device being employed?

Matthew's genealogy is a schematic of the Old Testament, and the Salvation History of Israel. In short he's saying, if you want to understand Jesus, read the OT. This does two things: it demonstrates a continuity of Revelation – the God of Jesus is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and it demonstrates the belief that Jesus is its fulfillment.

Luke's genealogy faces an entirely different problem. Luke is writing in the 90s. Jerusalem has been destroyed, and now Rome is turning its attentions to the Christians, as Nero's orgiastic excesses amply demonstrate.

The question Luke faces is this: It seems obvious to his audience that God has not been faithful to the promises made to His elect, by abandoning Israel and allowed its Holy City and Temple to be destroyed. What basis then, has the Gentile for faith in such a God, if there is no guarantee that God will, in return, remain faithful to them?

Luke's response was to show, exactly as Matthew, the continuity of the Plan of Salvation in history, by Jesus being He of whom the prophets spoke. But recourse to history in a Matthaen sense will not serve the Gentile, for Jewish history is not their history. Instead he focusses on the more immediate situation, and rather than pronouncing a long list of meaningless names, he focusses on a few, and shows how they exemplify the Old Testament experience – hence the centrality of the temple in the Lucan narrative ... Zechariah, Simeon, Anna ...

... so what I am saying is that although there might be material inconsistency in the account, there is a formal agreement about the origin and nature, the proimise and mission, of the Incarnate Son.

Thomas
 
I am missing the connection between what Thomas said and the concept of Sola Scriptura...

Peace & Love
Thomas was making the point we had to be reasonable.

Sola scriptura (Latin ablative, "by scripture alone") is the assertion that the Bible as God's written word is self-authenticating, clear (perspicuous) to the rational reader, its own interpreter ("Scripture interprets Scripture"), and sufficient of itself to be the only source of Christian doctrine. from Wiki.

Well reasonable and rational are basically the exact same word.
 
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