Two things: The Law, and the Commandments. Paul adresses both and ties them together. Is it also your contention that Paul is referring to the commandments of man, whatever that might be? I mean, the four prohibitions he mentions come straight out of the Ten Commandments.
Two things: The Law, and the Commandments. Paul adresses both and ties them together. Is it also your contention that Paul is referring to the commandments of man, whatever that might be? I mean, the four prohibitions he mentions come straight out of the Ten Commandments.
Here's what I think he's saying...
"Obey your local rulers because that's what G-d wants you to do. For example, look at the laws (commandments) G-d gave you...this and that are specifically designed to make you get along peacefully with your neighbors and the rest of them, well, they're generally the same thing. Your rulers won't get in the way of G-d's laws because rulers don't care if you do good. They only care if you do evil. So take advantage of this opportunity and do good so that people will honor your father in heaven."
How about this: Don't piss off the authorities by insisting on following the arcane letter of the ceremonial law, because in reality the point of the law is to love your neighbor.
But again, Paul is saying that the specificities of the commandments are encompassed, or more briefly comprehended in terms of love of neighbor. It's like saying that all the minute movements and elements of the golf swing are briefly comprehended by considering the thing as a singular action. While the specificities may be instructive, they don't substitute for just getting up there and smacking it.
But again, Paul is saying that the specificities of the commandments are encompassed, or more briefly comprehended in terms of love of neighbor. It's like saying that all the minute movements and elements of the golf swing are briefly comprehended by considering the thing as a singular action. While the specificities may be instructive, they don't substitute for just getting up there and smacking it.
pattimax
Somewhat returning
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I read back through it (Romans 13) again. I really don't think this is what Paul is saying.
The point (imo) is to love "the Lord your G-d" with all your mind, etc and your neighbor as yourself.
I generally agree with your point here.
Mark,
I agree that context is everything.
The first paragraph establishes the legitimacy of one's debts to government, individuals, and society. Paul says to settle all your debts. Why? Because the end is near. And should anyone think that Christian brotherhood exempts them from their civic and personal obligations, Paul disabuses them of that idea. In the second paragraph Paul says that the only debt remaining should be the continuing debt to love one another because this represents the fulfillment of the law and commandments which is what Jesus says clearly he is all about in the context of the Matthean quote immediately following the beatitudes.
I agree that context is everything.
What is the tie-in between this and the next quote?
The first paragraph establishes the legitimacy of one's debts to government, individuals, and society. Paul says to settle all your debts. Why? Because the end is near. And should anyone think that Christian brotherhood exempts them from their civic and personal obligations, Paul disabuses them of that idea. In the second paragraph Paul says that the only debt remaining should be the continuing debt to love one another because this represents the fulfillment of the law and commandments which is what Jesus says clearly he is all about in the context of the Matthean quote immediately following the beatitudes.
Gosh, in all this wonderful intellectual intercourse I completely forgot about the import of the OP. What do I think about these two sites? I think that the author is attempting to rectify what may seem to be a contradiction between the idea that the wicked suffer forever in hell, and the idea that the wicked, and wickedness in general is completely destroyed. How can the wicked be completely destroyed if they continue to toast forever in hades? This is what the author is addressing.
Hey Mark,
I think I understand your point. The fact that the four prohibitions are mentioned correlates to the idea of civic obligations and penalties expressed in the first section of the chapter. Adultery, theft, murder etc. are matters of general civic import, whereas the balance of the commandments refer to culturally specific aspects of Jewish law. Am I anywhere close on that?
I think I understand your point. The fact that the four prohibitions are mentioned correlates to the idea of civic obligations and penalties expressed in the first section of the chapter. Adultery, theft, murder etc. are matters of general civic import, whereas the balance of the commandments refer to culturally specific aspects of Jewish law. Am I anywhere close on that?
Yeah, I think so.
The first ones directly make things better for your neighbor and the others, generally so. Resting on Sabbath - good for the hood (or certainly not bad), honoring parents - kids grow up to be good neighbors, etc.
(imo) It's not so much that loving G-d and neighbors does away with the law, it makes enforcing the law irrelevant because your doing it anyway.
M
mee
Guest
thanks for the links, in revelation 20;14 it mentions the lake of fire , this is not a litral lake of fire it is symbolic , and there is no hope of anything coming back from it . here is another link to read about hell .
What Really Is Hell? - Jehovah's Witnesses Official Web Site
What is hell, and what kind of people go there? Is there any hope for those in hell?................ i found it an interesting read.
Christ can only intercede if asked...or else it is a 50/50 chance at judgement day between heaven and hell. (Even the Egyptians knew this when they lay a feather on the scales).
Where do you get Christianity as a "positive thing?" Accept Christ, and get ready to hang on for the ride of your life...
The only positive thing about Christianity is that YOU won't add to the troubles of the world...don't mean the troubles of the world won't come to your door. Just that Christ will help you through such troubles.
Christianity is not a "perfect religious experience". It is a work of faith in progress.
I am reminded of a movie "Bat 21". The downed pilot (played by Gene Hackman), is staring in disbelief as a downed rescue helicopter pilot, is stomping through the rice fields of Vietnam, before the armed VC, who are bemused by his "erratic" behavior. They want him to come out of the rice paddies. He sees the downed fighter pilot in the tree line. He winks, and continues stomping through the rice and water, until he hits a mine...he was a professed Christian, giving the pilot a chance to live another day, and consider life as a whole...
v/r
Q
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shadowman
Guest
you say hell is a place for murderers and child killers, but then say : no matter what we have done, we can be forgiven.,
so some murderers and child killers are going to hell and some arent? and all regular athiests or rejecters of christianity or muslims who were witnessed to but didnt convert are going to hell?
why do so many chrisitans try and sweep hell under the rug as if it doesnt exist.
should anyone be burned alive? isnt that horrible?
and terrible? Even hitler, should he really be burned alive for all time? punished yes, but burned alive forever? who would think to do something like that to anyone?
why do people so easily justify and vindicate eternally torturing other people. people make mistakes.
it seems like ultimately god doesnt tolerate mistakes because if you die without accepting jesus, hes never gonna forgive it, and its not like he goes out of his way to prove himself. and its not like he gives convincing proof... if he did, everyone would be following him, free will or no!
I just have a very tough time swallowing the idea of hell.
if we have free will, then why do some people choose christ and others dont? the things that could influence the decision is interaction with other people and ideas or intrinsic differences between people. we are all unconditioned in our heads at birth, and choosing christ is a belief meaning an idea held in the head for a period of time, and under certain circumstances...
does god create people for hell?
BlaznFattyz
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No, hell is created for the prince of darkness and his angels. if satan is your god, then hell is your place. If your hope and saviour is jesus christ, and he is your god, then heaven is your place. Everyone else will be judged by the son of god according to their works and he will seperate them to his left and to his right. There the unrepenting, evil, unrighteous, blasphemers against God will be punished for eternity. And all will know that Christ is God who has the keys over life and death, heaven and hell, and he sits on the throne with power and glory.
As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die... (Ezekiel 33:11)
The Lord is...not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. (II Peter 3:9)
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shadowman
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If I sold my soul, is the devil my god? Can I still repent? Also what is your response to the rest of what I wrote?
Francis king
Well-Known Member
shadowman...
...i was being delberately plain for a reason... to my way of thinking, hell, if exists, isn't for little ppl who work on sundays in the supermarket and occasionally swear when they stub their toes... if ur a real evil-doer, then yes, lets hope u burn, but for the rest of us, hell isn't something we need to be worrying ourselves about.
I work in mental health and I am alarmed by some of ur posts, some of which suggest to me that u are psychotic... I don't hold that against u, of course, but it does make me want to inject a little reality into this forum for ur sake, and so thats why I try to keep things so simple...
when I say, keep the commandments i mean, don't steal from ur neighbours, look after ur mum and dad, try to be honest, don't sleep around behind ur wife's back, and u'll be living a good life...
yes, in theory, it doesn't matter what we have done, we shall be forgiven, but for that to happen, we have to repent... for those who are evil and unrepentant, hell is for them.. for u to be so caught up in the God concept suggests to me that u have enough faith to see u through, and I was attempting to reassure u so that u as a person would not be so hard on urself... hell is not some literal place where u are burnt... hell is being seperated from God, and that can't happen if u have faith, and no, good muslims dont go to hell, nor do good pagans...
so... there's plenty of christians around here to tell u ur right and the voices telling u u are going to hell are real, and hey, maybe thats just what ur looking for, and thats ur choice, but I can't help but think this is a poor choice, for u... no skin off my nose, really... nothing to do with me... u can blame the fundies for ur worsening state later, after they have taken u away for a rest in the hospital, maybe...
maybe that's out of order, but, well, its well intentioned, at least, and u can see that for urself...
will leave u to it...
...i was being delberately plain for a reason... to my way of thinking, hell, if exists, isn't for little ppl who work on sundays in the supermarket and occasionally swear when they stub their toes... if ur a real evil-doer, then yes, lets hope u burn, but for the rest of us, hell isn't something we need to be worrying ourselves about.
I work in mental health and I am alarmed by some of ur posts, some of which suggest to me that u are psychotic... I don't hold that against u, of course, but it does make me want to inject a little reality into this forum for ur sake, and so thats why I try to keep things so simple...
when I say, keep the commandments i mean, don't steal from ur neighbours, look after ur mum and dad, try to be honest, don't sleep around behind ur wife's back, and u'll be living a good life...
yes, in theory, it doesn't matter what we have done, we shall be forgiven, but for that to happen, we have to repent... for those who are evil and unrepentant, hell is for them.. for u to be so caught up in the God concept suggests to me that u have enough faith to see u through, and I was attempting to reassure u so that u as a person would not be so hard on urself... hell is not some literal place where u are burnt... hell is being seperated from God, and that can't happen if u have faith, and no, good muslims dont go to hell, nor do good pagans...
so... there's plenty of christians around here to tell u ur right and the voices telling u u are going to hell are real, and hey, maybe thats just what ur looking for, and thats ur choice, but I can't help but think this is a poor choice, for u... no skin off my nose, really... nothing to do with me... u can blame the fundies for ur worsening state later, after they have taken u away for a rest in the hospital, maybe...
maybe that's out of order, but, well, its well intentioned, at least, and u can see that for urself...
will leave u to it...
pattimax
Somewhat returning
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shadowman
Guest
thanks francis, I dont like the fundamentals all that much myself. but shouldnt they be right, if anyone is right?
also, where do you draw the line between who burns and who is good enough? isnt that why christianity has the "All are equally condemned" doctrine, to clear up any confusion?...
I dont see why god has to condemn in the first place. I can see the point in corrective punishment. but condemnation with no hope of salvation for eternity always has seemed too harsh for my tastes. it just doesnt seem godly enough, too barbarianish and childish. I find it hard to intellectually relate to such a god...
I also dont see the point in condemning imperfect humans for being imperfect... It seems ridiculous. The old testament is clear on how insanely bad humans are at keeping gods covenant. how is he gonna expect us imperfect humans to all accept jesus. its obvious that punishing imperfect beings for being imperfect is more than a little off...
also, where do you draw the line between who burns and who is good enough? isnt that why christianity has the "All are equally condemned" doctrine, to clear up any confusion?...
I dont see why god has to condemn in the first place. I can see the point in corrective punishment. but condemnation with no hope of salvation for eternity always has seemed too harsh for my tastes. it just doesnt seem godly enough, too barbarianish and childish. I find it hard to intellectually relate to such a god...
I also dont see the point in condemning imperfect humans for being imperfect... It seems ridiculous. The old testament is clear on how insanely bad humans are at keeping gods covenant. how is he gonna expect us imperfect humans to all accept jesus. its obvious that punishing imperfect beings for being imperfect is more than a little off...
M
mee
Guest
The symbolic quality of the lake of fire is further evident from the context of references to it in the book of Revelation. Death is said to be hurled into this lake of fire. (Re 20:14, 20) Death obviously cannot be literally burned. Moreover, the Devil, an invisible spirit creature, is thrown into the lake. Being spirit, he cannot be hurt by literal fire.—Re 20:10; compare Ex 3:2 and Jg 13:20.
This expression occurs only in the book of Revelation and is clearly symbolic. The Bible gives its own explanation and definition of the symbol by stating: "This means the second death, the lake of fire."—Re 20:14; 21:8.
Since the lake of fire represents "the second death" and since Revelation 20:14 says that both "death and Hades" are to be cast into it, it is evident that the lake cannot represent the death man has inherited from Adam (Ro 5:12), nor does it refer to Hades (Sheol). It must, therefore, be symbolic of another kind of death, one that is without reversal, for the record nowhere speaks of the "lake" as giving up those in it, as do Adamic death and Hades (Sheol). (Re 20:13) Thus, those not found written in "the book of life," unrepentant opposers of God’s sovereignty, are hurled into the lake of fire, meaning eternal destruction, or the second death.—Re 20:15.
juantoo3
....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb
Kindest Regards, shadowman!
I am not francis, but I would like to touch on some of this if I may.
In other words, you are tormenting yourself with questions you cannot answer. No one knows for certain, all we have is hope. If we live our lives in the faith of knowing that we must one day answer for our activities and words, then we will conduct our affairs in a fair and rightful manner, with love and consideration towards most if not all others. At the same time, we are human and subject to error. We will sin. It is inevitable. We make mistakes. If we were infallible, we would have no need for religion, morality, faith or G-d. Those of us who recognize our shortcomings, realize we need faith, morality and G-d, even if not religion. Some of us look to G-d by other names, but the underlying intuition of something greater than ourselves is still there. Still others seem to think that all of this is "hard to intellectually relate to," yet still strive to conduct their affairs in some form of equitable and moral manner. All will be judged according to their understanding and application of the laws of G-d written on our hearts.
In my humble opinion, speaking only hypothetically, it is those who renounce and deny and subvert these laws written on their hearts, who conduct their affairs without regard for morality and equanimity, who disown G-d in any fashion, who will be discarded in the lake of fire.
It is somewhat off topic, but I feel bears mention briefly here, that the cleansing lake of fire is not perpetual. G-d will separate the silver from the dross. The impurities will be destroyed. Not eternally, but in what time it takes to be consumed. The smoke from that consumption is what will ascend eternally.
You are far too hard on yourself. Don't be, or you will miss this very important lesson. I am not the teacher, Jesus is. I am only reminding.
I am not francis, but I would like to touch on some of this if I may.
We don't. That is not our job. We have a judge, and He is not human. And He certainly is not self.
Rightly you should find it intellectually hard to relate to. It is not ours to consider a person as condemned by their actions or words. What of the "condemned" who repents on the death bed? What of the saint who dies uttering curses? What of the mentally challenged person who kills another person in an accidental fit of rage? These are legal issues I prefer to leave in the hands of the Almighty Judge. Hypothetically, at the White Throne Judgement, if one is condemned it will be for just and righteous reasons.
In other words, you are tormenting yourself with questions you cannot answer. No one knows for certain, all we have is hope. If we live our lives in the faith of knowing that we must one day answer for our activities and words, then we will conduct our affairs in a fair and rightful manner, with love and consideration towards most if not all others. At the same time, we are human and subject to error. We will sin. It is inevitable. We make mistakes. If we were infallible, we would have no need for religion, morality, faith or G-d. Those of us who recognize our shortcomings, realize we need faith, morality and G-d, even if not religion. Some of us look to G-d by other names, but the underlying intuition of something greater than ourselves is still there. Still others seem to think that all of this is "hard to intellectually relate to," yet still strive to conduct their affairs in some form of equitable and moral manner. All will be judged according to their understanding and application of the laws of G-d written on our hearts.
In my humble opinion, speaking only hypothetically, it is those who renounce and deny and subvert these laws written on their hearts, who conduct their affairs without regard for morality and equanimity, who disown G-d in any fashion, who will be discarded in the lake of fire.
It is somewhat off topic, but I feel bears mention briefly here, that the cleansing lake of fire is not perpetual. G-d will separate the silver from the dross. The impurities will be destroyed. Not eternally, but in what time it takes to be consumed. The smoke from that consumption is what will ascend eternally.
If I might add a bit of comfort, dear friend, please learn the lesson of forgiveness. Start first with yourself. So you are imperfect. I am not judging you in saying this, I too am imperfect. But I have learned to forgive myself and learn from my mistake and move on. Some lessons are more difficult to learn than others, some we may never quite get right. The thing is, we must keep on trying. We will fall short, we will miss the mark. If we didn't, why would we need G-d, or Jesus, or any recognized teacher of wisdom? It is because we fall short that we have been given teachers like Jesus, teachers who teach us to forgive. Forgive ourselves, and forgive others, so that we may be forgiven when the time for judgment comes.
You are far too hard on yourself. Don't be, or you will miss this very important lesson. I am not the teacher, Jesus is. I am only reminding.