how are we to accept or interpret god loving us if...

[shadowman]

I just want a belief I can live with. I find hard following a god that would burn people after death. and I dont think anyone deserves that. Its just not one of the things I would wonder: lets see, what kind of action warrants being burned alive forever? I say, not a one. never. its never ok. ITs like john mc cain says, its never ok to torture!

"But I do know that if God is pure love, then He is perfectly just, however He decides to mete it."


and this doesnt make sense to me.

 

[Quahom1]

I just want a belief I can live with. I find hard following a god that would burn people after death. and I dont think anyone deserves that. Its just not one of the things I would wonder: lets see, what kind of action warrants being burned alive forever? I say, not a one. never. its never ok. ITs like john mc cain says, its never ok to torture!

"But I do know that if God is pure love, then He is perfectly just, however He decides to mete it."


and this doesnt make sense to me.

Then you should dismiss the matter from your mind. If you can't reconcile with God's particular ways of dealing with people (despite dozens of reasons presented for your consideration by members here), then I suppose the only re-course would be to let the matter go. Conversely it wouldn't be a dismissal of God out right, simply that you can not currently comprehend why God does certain things (who does?).

Figuratively speaking of course, "smashing" your head into a brick wall trying to justify or rectify God's alleged behaviors, with being a God of love, doesn't do much good.

Sometimes (again figurately), when we don't understand something, sleeping on it (putting out of mind for a bit), sometimes helps us find the answers we seek.

You don't get it...so what? Maybe it will come to you, maybe not, or maybe it will take a little while, and then you'll come to realize the answers you seek.

Knowledge and understanding don't always reveal themselves after reading a few chapters, or even a few books. Sometimes it takes practical application, or observation, and many years before we figure something out.

v/r

Q

 

[Dondi]

I just want a belief I can live with. I find hard following a god that would burn people after death. and I dont think anyone deserves that. Its just not one of the things I would wonder: lets see, what kind of action warrants being burned alive forever? I say, not a one. never. its never ok. ITs like john mc cain says, its never ok to torture!

"But I do know that if God is pure love, then He is perfectly just, however He decides to mete it."


and this doesnt make sense to me.

You're looking for a God whose idea of Love is tolerance for everybody, whether they follow God or not. But if one doesn't accept God's Love, then that Love will be a distain to that person. The rejection of God's Pure Love will then seem like a fire to them. That is why the bible says that "our God is a consuming fire", because of the overwhelming power of His Love, expressed in the Holiness of His Being. So there are only two reactions to it: it will either be accepted, in which case the Love of God will be experienced as love, joy, and peace (for the person who accepts God's Love won't be fighting against it) Or it will cause a burning in the heart of the person rejecting it.

As an analogy, it would be like the difference between someone putting his bare hand over an open flame, and someone putting a fire-resistant gloved hand over the flame. One is going to feel pain, the other will just feel warmth. It is all a matter of how God's Love is received.

God's Nature cannot change. Nor is He in a position to Compromise. But He has managed to temper Judgment with Mercy through Christ.

 

[paul]

Lets say a human shows love to another, if one accepts it, they get love, they have a relationship in love with that person.

But sometimes one person may try to love another and is rejected, they may show love to another, but that other may have a burning hatred.
May even walk all over their love, just using it to take advantage of them and even ridicule them.

They may get maybe some physical advantages walking all over them, but they never recieve love.
But in themselves the person they are, by their own evil, this is the destructiveness inside them, and who can you be blamed for this, the one who offers them love, or themselves by their own actions.

God is just, He doesn't reward evil.
Even a parent to do such, that's not bringing their child up right.

God leads us in Love, not evil.
We are turning from His love when we do evil.
That evil then within us, how can it blamed on God, God offers us the cure, if you like - the water to put out the fire of evil within us.
That destructive fire within us, how can it be blamed on God when He wants, offers the opposite for us, is all that is opposed to evil.

Maybe that fire is a hatred of love within us.
For it does say everyone is rewarded according to their works.
And i know it doesn't mean those who even do good deeds for show.
But means thoughts who follow love within their hearts.

You're trying to make God evil, but God doesn't offer you no evil, only pure love and righteousness.
It would be evil to say of such a God that He will reward evil works, for that then encourages evil, and would make an evil God, and a God who is not love.

 

[JosephM]

I dont know if I can relate to a god that condones torturing. In my book it is never ok. never. its not even ok if you are offending a god that says "love your enemy" its never ok. and I do read peoples posts, they usually dont deter my arguments though, they usually sidestep them.

Shadowman,

No sidestepping here. Fact is God neither condones torturing nor does God burn people after death. Therefore your initial question of this thread remains irrelevant since it is based upon vainly puffed up imaginations of those who know nothing of the afterlife, hell, heaven or spiritual things. Forget all that 'stuff' and seek to discover God with all your heart and when realized, all your questions on such matters as you have brought up will dissappear as ignorance.

Love and Peace,
JM

 

[Dondi]

Shadowman,

No sidestepping here. Fact is God neither condones torturing nor does God burn people after death. Therefore your initial question of this thread remains irrelevant since it is based upon vainly puffed up imaginations of those who know nothing of the afterlife, hell, heaven or spiritual things. Forget all that 'stuff' and seek to discover God with all your heart and when realized, all your questions on such matters as you have brought up will dissappear as ignorance.

Love and Peace,
JM

You are the arbiter of truth, are you, JM? And the rest of us knows nothing of anything? How do you know your imagination isn't puffed up? Or have you cornered the Holy Spirit all to yourself?

 

[BlaznFattyz]

Jesus Christ, who is truth, warns us about hell many times in detail. he tells us why it is, where it is, what it looks like, who is there, and when it is and how long. more importantly he tells us how to avoid it;

"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:" John 1:12

" ...Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house."" Acts 16:30,31

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16

 

[JosephM]

You are the arbiter of truth, are you, JM? And the rest of us knows nothing of anything? How do you know your imagination isn't puffed up? Or have you cornered the Holy Spirit all to yourself?

Hello Dondi,

Perhaps in this case yes to the first question. Wether or not the rest of you all knows nothing of anything I cannot say. I do not know what you know and what you don't. I am just being direct here and not side-stepping shadowman's question. Only you yourself know if the the shoe fits as the post was not specifically directed to implicate you.

If you do not agree with what I said, then disagree and say God does condone torturing and does burn people after death ...... You are entitled to your view. As for me, I am without doubt that God does neither of the above.

Love and Peace,
JM

 

[JosephM]

Jesus Christ, who is truth, warns us about hell many times in detail. he tells us why it is, where it is, what it looks like, who is there, and when it is and how long. more importantly he tells us how to avoid it;

(snip)

Good Evening BlaznFattyz,

Not to ignore your post, I hear what you are saying and am familiar with those writings you quote yet I will reinterate my original statement of fact. "God neither condones torturing nor does God burn people after death."

Peace and Love,
JM

 

[shadowman]

two things that god seems to think are ok

eternaly tormenting people

commiting genocide (old testament)

dont you hell believers see. YOU GUYS ARE JUSTIFYING ETERNAL TORMENT OF PEOPLE. THIS IS LIKE AUSCHWITZ BUT FOREVER

hOW CAN THIS POSSIBLY BE OK???

 

[paul]

but that is just your interperatation.

You don't know what Christianity really teaches on this.
I know some do beleive it, and i think i know why.

I think they believe there has to be some justice, some just punishment for evil.

And i've even tried to address this point with you.
What of rapists, brutal murders, these people who commit voilent acts, even against very old people, who abuse even young children.
What if someone was to commit some of these crimes against you or one of your loved ones, and was even tried to be helped and was not sorry at all, had no remorse even.

Would you not feel it kind of just if they could feel themselves some of what they had done to you and your loved ones?

I would think it even of benefit to the offender if they truly felt the evil they had done to another.
But if knowing it, they still desired to cause such hurt to another, then isn't even eye for an eye totally just.
In that they should feel torment equal to what they inflict on others.

Isn't that what most would call justice?

I think these "literal hell beleivers" think there has to be some deterent for evil.

And i can understand this even from a human point, as similar to what i've mentioned above, if the threat is there for such offenders, who even desire to do evil, for that is the only ones who are punished, it can be a deterent and a threat.

Criminals thmselves even admit, the law and prisons are a joke when it comes to punishment, they admit it's not tough enough, crime is too easy, the law is too soft.

I've seen documentaries on prisons recently.
I went to the young offenders part of a prison when i was younger.

It was pretty normal stuff when i was there, and the prison guards did have authority, and would even get on with the prisoners.

What i've seen in this documentaries though is the prison gaurds are afraid.

I did write something on this before, "fears place"
And you may say it's evil that people should fear God.

But i think it's right, just that there should be more a fear of commiting evil, than people fearing the evil people may do to them.

For people are fearful of others today.
The victims, or potential victims have the fear, not the criminals or potential criminals.
Isn't that the wrong way round?

Please answer my question, how do you justly punish evil?

I know many of us have a problem with punsihment that would be forever in time, but i'm not sure scripture means this.
Now i'm again speaking of things i don't understand.
But we on earth are in a time zone, time is physical.
God is eternal, has no beginning and no end.

I don't beleive there is a time zone with God.
This spiritual existence without a body, when we are no longer physically existing, is another existence that we are ignorant of.
It's too much for me to try to understand that, to even know what God's judgement will be, how it will effect people, but for the purpose and justice of it, i leave to God, i don't have a choice, and i know will be more just than my mind can even comprehend, because it doesn't and can't comprehend it even.

If you want to study this, there may be people, writings and resources that may beable to help you.
But even if you have the facts layed out before you, without feeling, living the truth you don't really connect with it, and in such it maybe proven to you as truth.
I also beleive you need prayer to progress truly in truth.

I may beable to point you in the direction of an Orthodox forum, which may beable to help and advice you, if you really want to study the Christian truth of this, and who knows, maybe you can teach us here what you learn.

P.M. me if you're interested.

 

[Dondi]

Hello Dondi,

Perhaps in this case yes to the first question. Wether or not the rest of you all knows nothing of anything I cannot say. I do not know what you know and what you don't. I am just being direct here and not side-stepping shadowman's question. Only you yourself know if the the shoe fits as the post was not specifically directed to implicate you.

If you do not agree with what I said, then disagree and say God does condone torturing and does burn people after death ...... You are entitled to your view. As for me, I am without doubt that God does neither of the above.

Love and Peace,
JM

In the first place, if you have read my posts, it isn't as simple a matter as "God condone torture and burning people after death". In my view, the problem lies with man and not God. The spiritual condition of a particular person is dependent on his/her relationship with God and the eternal state is a natural outcome of that relationship. It is not a matter of God just tossing sinners in the lake of fire. The fire of God's Love will either purify or destroy. It can do no less.

But you are obviously in a universalist position, which is fine, though rather unorthodox. I'm curious by what means you've come to this viewpoint in regard to God's judgment vs God's mercy.

 

[JosephM]

In the first place, if you have read my posts, it isn't as simple a matter as "God condone torture and burning people after death". In my view, the problem lies with man and not God. The spiritual condition of a particular person is dependent on his/her relationship with God and the eternal state is a natural outcome of that relationship. It is not a matter of God just tossing sinners in the lake of fire. The fire of God's Love will either purify or destroy. It can do no less.

But you are obviously in a universalist position, which is fine, though rather unorthodox. I'm curious by what means you've come to this viewpoint in regard to God's judgment vs God's mercy.

Hello Dondi,

As a side note, it would be curteous of you not to bold my words when quoting them unless I have done the same in the original post. The reason being it effectively emphasizes one statement over another where no intent to do so was on the writers part. Thanks.

Yes, I am familiar with your posts and understand your reasoning. It seems to me Shadowman was accusing posters of side-stepping the issue so I responded directly to indicate his original statement was not true and therefore could not be answered (irrelevant) to his satisfaction. It seems to me, his responses, even to my post have proven he is not looking for an answer.

You have labeled my position (universalist) according to your own positionalities which is fine with me if you must do so. I have no such label myself. However, since you ask by what means I have come to this viewpoint ("God neither condones torture nor burns people after death"), I will respond by saying that It is self-evident while one is consciously in the presence of God. It requires no proof and is known beyond doubt.

Now, from a different perspective, (reason alone) As you well know, God's essence is Love. And reason alone tells one that Unconditional Love contains no room for such nonsense as torture or burning after death. Whether you believe God's Love is unconditional or not, is of course paramount to the reasoning process. I have no problem with your belief either way.

Hopefully I have answered your curiousity.

Love and Peace,
JM

 

[Dondi]

Hello Dondi,

As a side note, it would be curteous of you not to bold my words when quoting them unless I have done the same in the original post. The reason being it effectively emphasizes one statement over another where no intent to do so was on the writers part. Thanks.

Yes, I am familiar with your posts and understand your reasoning. It seems to me Shadowman was accusing posters of side-stepping the issue so I responded directly to indicate his original statement was not true and therefore could not be answered (irrelevant) to his satisfaction. It seems to me, his responses, even to my post have proven he is not looking for an answer.

You have labeled my position (universalist) according to your own positionalities which is fine with me if you must do so. I have no such label myself. However, since you ask by what means I have come to this viewpoint ("God neither condones torture nor burns people after death"), I will respond by saying that It is self-evident while one is consciously in the presence of God. It requires no proof and is known beyond doubt.

Now, from a different perspective, (reason alone) As you well know, God's essence is Love. And reason alone tells one that Unconditional Love contains no room for such nonsense as torture or burning after death. Whether you believe God's Love is unconditional or not, is of course paramount to the reasoning process. I have no problem with your belief either way.

Hopefully I have answered your curiousity.

Love and Peace,
JM

It wasn't my intention to bring the highlighted verse out of context with the rest of your post, but merely to point to the portion of your post that I wished to address, just as a matter of clarity. I will refrain from doing so in your posts in the future as a matter of courtesy.

Secondly, I'm not much for labels myself, especially if they are inaccurate. We use terms to convey a concept in an economy of words. With the use of the word "universalist" I meant to convey the idea of one who believes in the doctrine of universal salvation. Since you do not believe in eternal punishment, then the default is that all will be saved..eventually. If that does not decribe your position, please tell me where I'm wrong.

I agree that God's Love is Unconditional. But that doesn't mean that it will be unconditionally received. There are those who, for whatever reason, will reject that love. Perhaps they blame God for some tragedy, or look at the unfairness in the suffering in the world and cannot see God in it. Or maybe they are too entrenched in their selfish desires to even want God. You can show someone love, but you cannot force someone to love you back.

But you still haven't really touched on the justice of God. Are you saying that God should just let all things slide? Brush them under the rug and tell everyone now to play nicely? If that is the case, then you Unconditional Love has no basis. It's all just a lot of gooey fluff.

 

[JosephM]

It wasn't my intention to bring the highlighted verse out of context with the rest of your post, but merely to point to the portion of your post that I wished to address, just as a matter of clarity. I will refrain from doing so in your posts in the future as a matter of courtesy.

Greetings Dondi,

Understood, Thank you.

Secondly, I'm not much for labels myself, especially if they are inaccurate. We use terms to convey a concept in an economy of words. With the use of the word "universalist" I meant to convey the idea of one who believes in the doctrine of universal salvation. Since you do not believe in eternal punishment, then the default is that all will be saved..eventually. If that does not decribe your position, please tell me where I'm wrong.

Perhaps it might be accurate to say I have no doctrine. I neither said I believed in eternal punishment or didn't believe in eternal punishment. I said "God neither condones torture nor does God burn people after death." It seems to me that perhaps you may be reading into statements according to your belief system of subjective contructs. There is no default unless you have pre-defined eternal punishment and created an either or. There is no need for me to have a position. I made a statement and it said what it said, no more and no less.

I agree that God's Love is Unconditional. But that doesn't mean that it will be unconditionally received. There are those who, for whatever reason, will reject that love. Perhaps they blame God for some tragedy, or look at the unfairness in the suffering in the world and cannot see God in it. Or maybe they are too entrenched in their selfish desires to even want God. You can show someone love, but you cannot force someone to love you back.

Good. We are one here. God's Love is unconditional. In God is no darkness at all. And moreover, God's Love is not something that is given or received that it can be rejected (as with men). God's Love is an everpresent essence that for lack of better words binds together all things. It is more a state of being. It cannot be rejected, only not recognized as such by the carnal nature. Since God is in and through all things and by him ALL things exist there is no place that IT is not already. Love cannot be Lost. Perhaps, I am speaking beyond fleshly words.

But you still haven't really touched on the justice of God. Are you saying that God should just let all things slide? Brush them under the rug and tell everyone now to play nicely? If that is the case, then you Unconditional Love has no basis. It's all just a lot of gooey fluff.

This universe is inherrently just by creation. God neither has opinions concerning our actions that he should let things slide or not. God who is all knowing, all powerful, and present everywhere has no need for opinions nor desire for retribution. What need does He who has no enemies have for such things as judgement and retribution. Judgement by definition requires an opinion. It is man who judges himself by his thoughts/actions and sows what he reaps by his own creation. That is the gooey fluff. God Love needs no basis... It is God's essence and it is unchanging and full of light.

Love and Peace,
JM

 

[Dondi]

JM,

Perhaps you could describe the operation in which God's Love is recieved in a human heart resistant to it. Or perhaps you believe the human isn't resistant. Or is there a process by which we are resistent and then become receptive? Is it a progression?

 

[JosephM]

JM,

Perhaps you could describe the operation in which God's Love is recieved in a human heart resistant to it. Or perhaps you believe the human isn't resistant. Or is there a process by which we are resistent and then become receptive? Is it a progression?

Hello Dondi,

Perhaps I could but they would of course only be words as best as I can relate to my experience. During my new birth experience it was self-evidend to me that God/Love was never apart from me even though I had in my mind thought God/Love was (apart or separate from me). It was as if there had never been a division yet it was veiled from my past conscious for reasons of unforgiveness on my part and the like.

Love is not something progressively received in a human heart as it is complete already. It is not 'out there' that it is to be received 'in here'. Love is present everywhere in this moment. However, it is true that our mind is being transformed so as to appear that it is a progression when in reality it is not. God/Love never changes or increases or decreases. It is only an illusion/metaphor that Love grows.

Hopefully that answers your question to your satisfaction,
Love and Peace,
JM

 

[Dondi]

Hello Dondi,

Perhaps I could but they would of course only be words as best as I can relate to my experience. During my new birth experience it was self-evidend to me that God/Love was never apart from me even though I had in my mind thought God/Love was (apart or separate from me). It was as if there had never been a division yet it was veiled from my past conscious for reasons of unforgiveness on my part and the like.

Love is not something progressively received in a human heart as it is complete already. It is not 'out there' that it is to be received 'in here'. Love is present everywhere in this moment. However, it is true that our mind is being transformed so as to appear that it is a progression when in reality it is not. God/Love never changes or increases or decreases. It is only an illusion/metaphor that Love grows.

Hopefully that answers your question to your satisfaction,
Love and Peace,
JM

Yeah, but people are at various levels of this discovery. Some may not even discover it at all. Is it the only change in awareness that is needed, or is there changed required of ourselves?

 

[shadowman]

In the first place, if you have read my posts, it isn't as simple a matter as "God condone torture and burning people after death". In my view, the problem lies with man and not God. The spiritual condition of a particular person is dependent on his/her relationship with God and the eternal state is a natural outcome of that relationship. It is not a matter of God just tossing sinners in the lake of fire. The fire of God's Love will either purify or destroy. It can do no less.

But you are obviously in a universalist position, which is fine, though rather unorthodox. I'm curious by what means you've come to this viewpoint in regard to God's judgment vs God's mercy.

we might choose the wrong path. but its god that labels it the wrong path, god that gives us the choices, and god that caerries out whatever comes next after we die.

and we humans are imperfect, why is god wanting to punish imperfect humans.... thats basically what rejecting god is, a big mistake.

 

[shadowman]

thanks dondi and joseph, you are posting some very interesting stuff!


paul...:

Please answer my question, how do you justly punish evil?

I know many of us have a problem with punsihment that would be forever in time, but i'm not sure scripture means this.
Now i'm again speaking of things i don't understand.
But we on earth are in a time zone, time is physical.
God is eternal, has no beginning and no end.

I don't beleive there is a time zone with God.
This spiritual existence without a body, when we are no longer physically existing, is another existence that we are ignorant of.
It's too much for me to try to understand that, to even know what God's judgement will be, how it will effect people, but for the purpose and justice of it, i leave to God, i don't have a choice, and i know will be more just than my mind can even comprehend, because it doesn't and can't comprehend it even.

If you want to study this, there may be people, writings and resources that may beable to help you.
But even if you have the facts layed out before you, without feeling, living the truth you don't really connect with it, and in such it maybe proven to you as truth.
I also beleive you need prayer to progress truly in truth.

I may beable to point you in the direction of an Orthodox forum, which may beable to help and advice you, if you really want to study the Christian truth of this, and who knows, maybe you can teach us here what you learn.

P.M. me if you're interested.

yeah sure I am interested. Im not sure what to do about evil. But if it leads to punishment, why make it in the first place
.

I also dont think humans can be pure evil... so while some might warrant punishment, even ghengis or hitler should eventually be fixed by god. I dont get why he makes imperfect humans and then punishes them for being imperfect. it seems like a weird game.

evil should be purified I think. Whats the point of punishing when you can fix things. and I think the round about way (Im gonna kill my son etc etc) is just weird. as long as god lets his game to run, more and more would end up in what exactly I dont know. Hopefully we are all mislead and the bible preaches destruction and annihilation.

but that doesnt reconcile with weeping wailing moaning and gnashing of teeth...