how are we to accept or interpret god loving us if...

I think I spend more time with the bible and hardly any time with books in opposition...and all my questions were in relation to your biblical quote. My meager bible memory says John is entirely New Covenant and not mentioned in the Old anywhere...I don't recall Paul meeting Jesus either...back to the book as Paul is the most prevelant cannonized author of scripture....

No where do I intend the New Testament should be tossed nor give anything more ancient claim or corner on truth.


There are quite a few commentaries on this subject wil, Im sure you've read a few.. John the baptist is referred as the last OT prophet because of his message and his announcement of the arrival of Jesus which marked the end of the dispensation of the OT law.

Paul certainly met Jesus on the road to Damascus? You arent familiar with this??
 
Faithfulservant,

Not to labor the point, at the time of Acts Chapter 11 we have no record that all of those early Christians in Antioh had even OT scripture. Many were unlearned and Gentiles. Paul preached, people were saved and God transformed them. Many never read a word of text. Never was a requirement to be called a Christian. Pauls letters were just that. He never called them scripture. He said they were letters (epistoles) written with his own hand and did not say with the hand of God. Yes they contain inspired words that I believe he received from the spirit of God but even he knew the difference between letters and the "Word of God" which is not contained in any book nor was the book a requirement to believe it all to be called a Christian. That is all I that I was saying.

It seems to me that Wil pointed out accurately the word scripture in 2 Tim was not referring to 2 Tim as Paul addressed it as a letter and not scripture as he did with all his letters.

Love and Peace,
JM

Actually my argument is that one has to Believe scripture as being God inspired to be a Christian..not that you have to read it to be a Christian..

And I can even challenge and say that were God to inspire scripture to be written today it would be just as valid as what was writting 1000 years before Jesus Christ.

The book of Revelation was penned by John and given by Jesus Christ who is God which makes that GOD inspired..

Paul was sent by Jesus to bring the gentiles into the fold..

An argument that Pauls writings arent from the Lord is once again foolishness to Christians.
 
Actually my argument is that one has to Believe scripture as being God inspired to be a Christian..not that you have to read it to be a Christian..

(snip)

Faithfulservant,

I think we can find some common grounds with some of your statements except with the first listed above. In Acts Chapter 2 it is recorded that about 3 thousand souls were saved in one day after Peter gave a sermon. No where in that sermon do I see where it is a requirement to believe all scripture or writings that were not even in existence at that time to be saved.

Inspired words edify and build up faith but as you know, only the Spirit of God saves. Many teach believing the whole Bible as a requirement to be a Christian but there isn't even Biblical basis for it contained in the Bible. Neither do the sermons contained in it emphatically state it. Yopu would assume something so important would be clearly spelled out in the text rather than just as dogma by organized churches. If perhaps I am mistaken, perhaps you can provide something more concrete that spells out this precept of yours as being a requirement to be called a Christian or be a Christian.

Love and Peace,
JM
 
Acts 2:16 But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: 17 'And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your young men shall see visions, Your old men shall dream dreams. 18 And on My menservants and on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days; And they shall prophesy. 19 I will show wonders in heaven above And signs in the earth beneath: Blood and fire and vapor of smoke. 20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord. 21 And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of the Lord Shall be saved.


Peter quoted from OT scripture... and with the Spirit of God rushing in that place... Im sure people believed it ;)
 
Acts 2:16 But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: 17 'And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your young men shall see visions, Your old men shall dream dreams. 18 And on My menservants and on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days; And they shall prophesy. 19 I will show wonders in heaven above And signs in the earth beneath: Blood and fire and vapor of smoke. 20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord. 21 And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of the Lord Shall be saved.


Peter quoted from OT scripture... and with the Spirit of God rushing in that place... Im sure people believed it ;)

Ok faithfulservant,

I acknowledge your position in this quote and it does reference OT scripture but it still does not make it a requirement to accept ALL of what is now considered the Bible to be a Christian. Because some of the writings build faith and as a result people are saved, in no way supports the view that all of it must be believed to be saved. Nor does the accuracy of some passages make ALL passages true. Just as some of the words in my writings are inspired by God and true doesn't make ALL my writings true.

Nevertheless, thank you for your response and time. All my love in Christ to you and best wishes on your journey in Christ.

JM
 
Kindest Regards, JosephM!

I realize this is addressed to Faithful, but since I am the one to broach this, perhaps I should be the one to defend it.

Not to labor the point, at the time of Acts Chapter 11 we have no record that all of those early Christians in Antioh had even OT scripture. Many were unlearned and Gentiles. Paul preached, people were saved and God transformed them.
The first qualifier we both should admit is that none of us were there. Having said this, Paul was trained as a Pharisaic Rabbi. Now, I should think a Pharisaic Rabbi teaching and preaching would do so with his handy dandy trusty dusty copy of the Old Testament in hand. I don't believe he taught from his letters, his letters if anything were extensions of his sermons, practical application as it were. It is possible some listeners were likely purely Gentile, but as Jewish enclaves were already well established far beyond Palestine, I would think that Paul at least in many if not most instances home based himself within these Jewish enclaves. By extension, those Gentiles Paul reached out to would have at the least been exposed to Jewish or pseudo-Jewish teachings.

Many never read a word of text.
This I do not feel is accurate. We are not discussing Medieval Europe where the clergy had a vested interest in keeping the masses ignorant. It is reasonably well known to scholarship that there have been some bright moments in history where "common" folk were allowed knowledge and learning, and the cosmopolitan atmosphere of the Greco-Roman universe at that time was one such period. It was not uncommon at all for the typical person to speak two or three languages proficiently. Paul held Roman citizenship, which suggests he may have spoken Latin. Greek was frequently used throughout this region as a language of commerce. I suspect many were more literate than frequently given credit.

Pauls letters were just that. He never called them scripture. He said they were letters (epistoles) written with his own hand and did not say with the hand of God. Yes they contain inspired words that I believe he received from the spirit of God but even he knew the difference between letters and the "Word of God" which is not contained in any book nor was the book a requirement to believe it all to be called a Christian. That is all I that I was saying.
Agreed, and in the sense you and Wil suggest that Paul's letters were not yet canonized, they were not read in the makeshift synagogues where Paul preached as scripture. Later, particularly after Paul was imprisoned and executed, these letters took on greater meaning to the assemblies to whom they were first written, and from there the common sense wisdom and practical application lessons were shared among the various infant churches...at least when times allowed. There were some seriously grievous times when everything, OT and NT, had to be hidden and taught with the greatest discretion, until the time of Constantine. This encompassed the better part of 300 years, of the sect of Judaism called Christianity growing as an underground movement, with spectacular results! The harder Rome tried to end Christianity, the bigger it grew!

It seems to me that Wil pointed out accurately the word scripture in 2 Tim was not referring to 2 Tim as Paul addressed it as a letter and not scripture as he did with all his letters.
In that sense I agree with you, at that time. Under Constantine, about 325 AD, Paul's letters were formally canonized.

Shalom!
 
I rather the translation
"All scripture, inspired of God, is profitable to teach, to reprove, to correct, to instruct in justice: that the man of God may be perfect, furnished to every good work."

It tells us the profit of scripture inspired of God.

I think John Chrysostom explains this more:
"IT were indeed meet for us not at all to require the aid of the written Word, but to exhibit a life so pure, that the grace of the Spirit should be instead of books to our souls, and that as these are inscribed with ink, even so should our hearts be with the Spirit. But, since we have utterly put away from us this grace, come, let us at any rate embrace the second best course.
For that the former was better, God hath made manifest,both by His words, and by His doings. Since unto Noah, and unto Abraham, and unto his offspring, and unto Job, and unto Moses too, He discoursed not by writings, but Himself by Himself, finding their mind pure. But after the whole people of the Hebrews had fallen into the very pit of wickedness, then and thereafter was a written word, and tables, and the admonition which is given by these.
And this one may perceive was the case, not of the saints in the Old Testament only, but also of those in the New. For neither to the apostles did God give anything in writing, but instead of written words He promised that He would give them the grace of the Spirit: for "He," saith our Lord, "shall bring all things to your remembrance." And that thou mayest learn that this was far better, hear what He saith by the Prophet: "I will make a new covenant with you, putting my laws into their mind, and in their heart I will write them," and, "they shall be all taught of God." And Paul too, pointing out the same superiority, said, that they had received a law "not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart."
But since in process of time they made shipwreck, some with regard to doctrines, others as to life and manners, there was again need that they should be put in remembrance by the written word."

The problem with scripture is people interperate it differently, sometimes for selfish reasons, sometimes being ignorant of the truth and having been led in error.

It is profitable to us, but only if we understand it correctly, for many people can use it the wrong way.

I remember reading of a Saint who use to sometimes when asked of the meaning of certain passages of scripture admitted i don't know.
I use to think that can't be right, how can someone be a Saint, have the truth and not know it.

There's also a quote, i think by Plato, i think it's something like "it's only when we realize that we really know nothing that we truly know something"

The truth is there is much we don't know, many force an understanding out of scripture in error.
The Spirit leads us, and at God's pace not ours.

God reveals things to us, to the heart does He speak, and we have to be open to Him, who is love.
We have to be humble to receive it.

Mother Teresa said "God speaks in the silence of the heart"

We have to be truly honest, there's much we don't know, and how is the truth proved to us.
Many can say the scripture says this, and tell you what is true.
And many say differently.

But truth is proved in the silence of ours hearts.
Not always through reading, for many have read come to very opposite understandings, but our hearts have to be opened in reading.
And reading is not as great as doing, but it's an aid to teach us, remind us.

Let us remember we have been created in the image of God, and God is said to be love.
So let us reflect the image God created us in.
Let us be united to our creator in the only way possible to be united to Him.

In His Love.
 
Greetings Juantoo3,

Thanks for the response but it seems to me you addressed my words and perceptions but may have side-stepped the issue being discussed at this time with Faithfulservant. That being, "Is it or is it not a requirement to believe the Bible as it exists today is the Word of God to be a Christian?" Is it a Biblical requirement to believe it ALL to be a Christian?

Love and Peace,
JM
 
Greetings Juantoo3,

Thanks for the response but it seems to me you addressed my words and perceptions but may have side-stepped the issue being discussed at this time with Faithfulservant. That being, "Is it or is it not a requirement to believe the Bible as it exists today is the Word of God to be a Christian?" Is it a Biblical requirement to believe it ALL to be a Christian?

Love and Peace,
JM

I also believe I answered your rebuttal without a doubt that believers in the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ believe the scriptures are without a doubt the Word of God.

I am so wise to what you are doing..You are trying to trip me up by making it seem to say that its more than grace that saves... Its like works Joseph... Works are the product of faith works do not save.. faith saves.. and so is belief in His holy word...its a product of faith.

One cannot believe the bible is the word of God without the Holy Spirit.. someone who disbelieves the bible as the word of God does NOT have truth and has questionable salvation.. Only the Holy Spirit can reveal it as truth. He is also the only one that can convict you that Jesus Christ is the only son of God come to earth to die for your sins and that He rose again and is living right now preparing a place for His church.

I will say this bluntly because this is what a Christian is in my faith and Im tired of your word games. Anything other than this is not nor ever have they been a born again Christian. If you have not realized you are a sinner and repented of those sins sincerely and asked Jesus Christ into your heart.. you are not a Christian. If you have not come to that realization that you are a sinner in need of saving you will not believe the bible as the written word of God because you do not have the truth in you.

If you are not born again into this faith you will not see the kingdom of heaven. period.

You cannot be "born" a Christian.. one has to be born of water and born of the Spirit to be born again and you cannot enter the kingdom of heaven without both.

This is what the bible says.
 
I also believe I answered your rebuttal without a doubt that believers in the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ believe the scriptures are without a doubt the Word of God.

I am so wise to what you are doing..You are trying to trip me up by making it seem to say that its more than grace that saves... Its like works Joseph... Works are the product of faith works do not save.. faith saves.. and so is belief in His holy word...its a product of faith.

Salutations Faithfulservant,

Ok. I hear you but I assure you that my intentions are not at all to trip you up as you suppose.

One cannot believe the bible is the word of God without the Holy Spirit.. someone who disbelieves the bible as the word of God does NOT have truth and has questionable salvation.. Only the Holy Spirit can reveal it as truth. He is also the only one that can convict you that Jesus Christ is the only son of God come to earth to die for your sins and that He rose again and is living right now preparing a place for His church.

Again you suppose... as there is no doubt in my mind that the spirit of God lives in me as in you and I have come to a different conclusion concerning the Bible being the 'Word of God '. I have no problem with you believing as you do by your perceived concept of faith. Nor do I have a problem with your assumption that I must not have the Holy spirit because I do not agree with your premise. My Love and best wishes go out to you.

I will say this bluntly because this is what a Christian is in my faith and Im tired of your word games. Anything other than this is not nor ever have they been a born again Christian. If you have not realized you are a sinner and repented of those sins sincerely and asked Jesus Christ into your heart.. you are not a Christian. If you have not come to that realization that you are a sinner in need of saving you will not believe the bible as the written word of God because you do not have the truth in you.

If you are not born again into this faith you will not see the kingdom of heaven. period.

You cannot be "born" a Christian.. one has to be born of water and born of the Spirit to be born again and you cannot enter the kingdom of heaven without both.

This is what the bible says.

Ok. Born again October 1980 which is vividly remembered. Baptized both in water in a baptismal and in the River Jordan and by the spirit as in Acts Chapter 2. A Jew by circumcision of the heart. I understand and have experienced these things you write of and you are entitled to believe what you will about me. My experience needs no proof or justification. I wish you well and that God continues to open your eyes to truth. May you be first and me last.

Love and Peace,
JM
 
so god values free will more than ensuring that no one goes to a place of eternal torment? thats ridiculous.

Dont any of you realize that you let god off the hook for allowing eternal torture of his creations. in any other life circumstance I would hope that we would agree that all torture is wrong. But in gods case, not only is torment ok, but eternal torment is ok.
 
There are quite a few commentaries on this subject wil, Im sure you've read a few.. John the baptist is referred as the last OT prophet because of his message and his announcement of the arrival of Jesus which marked the end of the dispensation of the OT law.

Paul certainly met Jesus on the road to Damascus? You arent familiar with this??

might have been schizo type hallucination!
 
so god values free will more than ensuring that no one goes to a place of eternal torment? thats ridiculous.

Dont any of you realize that you let god off the hook for allowing eternal torture of his creations. in any other life circumstance I would hope that we would agree that all torture is wrong. But in gods case, not only is torment ok, but eternal torment is ok.

Who inflicts torture Shadowman?
You have no proof God inflicts torture, but plenty of proof who does.
Man inflicts torture on others, it is man who hurt one another.
It is man who inflicts torture on his own soul.

But not only do you blame God for what man chooses, but now blame Him for giving us a choice.

If you go down the street and steal, do voilence to someone, you have done this, who's to blame.
Is it God who that then makes evil or the one who has commited the evil.
Is it the God who only leads man in love, or those full of wickedness?

We do have choices, you can't change that.
Call God evil for it if you like, but that man has choices, and that man does evil is before our eyes whether you beleive in God or not it still doesn't change that fact.

You blame everything on a God, and for that reason you don't beleive in Him.

If there is no God, the facts of life still remain, but then you have no God to blame for the evils of man but only man himself.

What happens to man after death you do not know.

What happens to man in life, you can gain some knowledge, how for man to be happy in life, you can gain some knowledge, how for man to live by love in life you can gain some knowledge, not only knowledge of it, but the love itself.

Toss it all aside if you like, as no use to you, dispise it as evil if you like.
That is your choice, and you have no God to blame for it.
 
Kindest Regards, JosephM!
Thanks for the response but it seems to me you addressed my words and perceptions but may have side-stepped the issue being discussed at this time with Faithfulservant. That being, "Is it or is it not a requirement to believe the Bible as it exists today is the Word of God to be a Christian?" Is it a Biblical requirement to believe it ALL to be a Christian?
You are welcome, I responded primarily to clarify an issue raised by wil and furthered by yourself. I have chosen deliberately to sidestep the separate issue raised here: "Is it or is it not a requirement to believe the Bible as it exists today is the Word of God to be a Christian? Is it a Biblical requirement to believe it ALL to be a Christian?" I have done so to this point because my answer is dependent. For an orthodox position, I suppose the answer to be yes. For a more liberal position, the answer is relative, depending in part on whether one acknowledges Jesus as Divine or as a Spiritually Guided human, and in part on the status and prominence one grants to Paul.

To a person of orthodox persuasion, a person not acknowledging the Divinity of Jesus or who invalidates Pauline teachings seems to be "picking and choosing." To a person of more liberal persuasion, a person holding to the established canon may seem to be stubbornly overlooking mitigating factors.

Do you prefer your eggs scrambled or fried? Or maybe raw? Or perhaps if you are vegan you do not care for eggs at all? Are eggs crucial to salvation? Is "salvation" itself too narrowly defined? Does G-d like His eggs fried, scrambled or raw? Is G-d a vegan who politely refuses to eat eggs? Is this example conducive to what I wish to point out? I don't know, and I fail to see how humans arguing amongst themselves can sort it out. The answer does not impinge on the question of my salvation. I trust G-d created me as He intended, placed me where He intended, and put it upon my heart to conduct myself in a way suitable to Him. I need not answer to another human.

Jesus taught "judge not, that you be not judged." That is sufficient for me. I work on my salvation with "fear," reverent trust, and trembling, and I presume most others do too. From my perspective, it is not how one believes, it is what one does what one is led to believe. What is evident to me is the fruit of the spirit moving within any given individual. I see that evidence in many Christians of all persuasions, just as I see it also in others not even Christian. I trust this is all as G-d intended.

Does this answer the question? :D

Shalom.
 
Fried eggs here Juantoo3,

Thanks for your response. I agree that the fruits speak louder than words.

Love and Peace,
JM
 
Who inflicts torture Shadowman?
You have no proof God inflicts torture, but plenty of proof who does.
Man inflicts torture on others, it is man who hurt one another.
It is man who inflicts torture on his own soul.

But not only do you blame God for what man chooses, but now blame Him for giving us a choice.

If you go down the street and steal, do voilence to someone, you have done this, who's to blame.
Is it God who that then makes evil or the one who has commited the evil.
Is it the God who only leads man in love, or those full of wickedness?

We do have choices, you can't change that.
Call God evil for it if you like, but that man has choices, and that man does evil is before our eyes whether you beleive in God or not it still doesn't change that fact.

You blame everything on a God, and for that reason you don't beleive in Him.

If there is no God, the facts of life still remain, but then you have no God to blame for the evils of man but only man himself.

What happens to man after death you do not know.

What happens to man in life, you can gain some knowledge, how for man to be happy in life, you can gain some knowledge, how for man to live by love in life you can gain some knowledge, not only knowledge of it, but the love itself.

Toss it all aside if you like, as no use to you, dispise it as evil if you like.
That is your choice, and you have no God to blame for it.


I agree I think humans are responsible for the evil and good that gets done. its too whimsical and irrational to try and pick out which parts of life are human, which parts are a god and which parts are a demon.
 
I agree I think humans are responsible for the evil and good that gets done. its too whimsical and irrational to try and pick out which parts of life are human, which parts are a god and which parts are a demon.

You agree that humans are responsible for the good and evil that they do?

Can you see also, the way evil can get a grip of people, can overpower them, that in some way is a force?

Can you also see, how love is such a pure thing, but is all too often neglected?

Can you see these two forces?

And how so many examples in life, as how this evil force can get a grip of people.

And how love needs a constant devotion.

Can you see this from life and human reason?

I beleive that love is God.
And that darkness that can get a grip of us, only my devotion to my God can save me from it.

I need to set my heart on my God constantly, it is often called prayer.
It's good to reflect on so many things in our life and grow as people.

It is proven to me, that it is not of myself that i have grown.
But of myself sank in darkness, but even then that darkness was something beyond myself and control, but i did make some steps in it.
I did give myself over to it, although it had the power over me, and over my life to ruin it.
Things only changed for me through prayer, and not just in prayer of words, but of the heart.

You may think it is then even my will, for i set my heart to change.
But that is not true.

My change has come gradual and not something within my power, but i've progressed in a love i before didn't have knowledge of.

It's a hard thing to explain, i think has to be experienced personally.

Can you see at all what i am trying to say, am i wasting my time?
 
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