how are we to accept or interpret god loving us if...

[shadowman]

to me gods message is like "accept me or you will be sorry!"

and it seems I dont know, childish and non intellectual. its almost exactly like a torture chamber. christians always talking about "it will be too late one day"

thats like darth vader saying "tell us where the rebel base is before its too late"

I dont know, I dont want to go against god, but the god christianity describes seems to weird, ego tistical and mean.

 

[JosephM]

Yeah, but people are at various levels of this discovery. Some may not even discover it at all. Is it the only change in awareness that is needed, or is there changed required of ourselves?

Dondi,

It seems to me, as you know, that we have been given choice and also that God Loves us unconditionally. Threfore God REQUIRES nothing in return. God has no requirements. That is the nature of Love. It is complete and without need. Creation can only be what IT IS at this moment and will fulfill its destiny according to its created nature in time as influenced by choice, circumstances and a myriad of other modifiers yet, there is not even one speck of dust out of place in the entire universe. There is no chaos as some would have us believe. All is perfect and can be seen for what it is through the mind of Christ. And you Dondi, as I, have the mind of Christ and know all things. It is only our human mind that is having the trouble reconciling these linguistic words where no words are even needed.

You say some may not discover at all but I do not see that as a possibility since it is purposed otherwise by design and intrinsic essence that in the fulness of times all things shall return to source. (so to speak only since they have not really left nor is there anywhere to go in reality.)

When a change in awareness takes place, there is a change in us. It is not a question of being required to change. It is the inherrent destiny of creation. Knowing of truth/light consumes darkness and ignorance with the brightness of its coming. (so to speak) It is not a matter of doing anything. Actions follow knowing (faith not just belief) and not the other way around.

Perhaps I have merely generated more questions....

Love and Peace,
JM

 

[shadowman]

But in the bible, the love described IS conditional. It is not unconditional love. Its love that has rules built into it, allowing an imperfect human to reject the love and damn oneself.

And how do you reconcile weeping wailing moaning and gnashing of teeth?

how do you reconcile "depart from me ye cursed"

 

[JosephM]

But in the bible, the love described IS conditional. It is not unconditional love. Its love that has rules built into it, allowing an imperfect human to reject the love and damn oneself.

And how do you reconcile weeping wailing moaning and gnashing of teeth?

how do you reconcile "depart from me ye cursed"

Hello Shadowman,

I don't. There is no need to reconcile those things. Discover God and you will not need a book that needs reconciling. There is enough in the book that points to God. There is no requirement to accept it as truth except in the mind of men and organizations. Shall we believe God or men?

Love and Peace,
JM

 

[Faithfulservant]

Hello Shadowman,

I don't. There is no need to reconcile those things. Discover God and you will not need a book that needs reconciling. There is enough in the book that points to God. There is no requirement to accept it as truth except in the mind of men and organizations. Shall we believe God or men?

Love and Peace,
JM

I would ask kindly that you do not push people away from the Word of God. Joseph I know that you do not believe that the bible is from God but this IS Christianity and we believe the bible..you do NOT speak for people of this faith.

Speaking with the authority of the living word of God... I would like to personally say I would not wish ANYONE hell and I hope that ALL come to Jesus Christ while they can. I would not be a Christian if I wished hell on anyone because what love would that be.

However, You cannot spit in Gods eye and expect to live in His kingdom without repenting. Do you not know that in His kingdom you will fall down and worship quite regularly?? Do you not know that in His kingdom you will be ruled with the rod of righteousness.. you cannot see His kingdom without accepting His right to rule there. I

f you cannot see spending eternity living like that then I understand why you dont want to accept Him. But you cant dont go whining and crying afterwards because you were told over and over again that is would happen and you continually hardened your heart against His calls to you. Everytime you hear the gospel that is Him calling to you.. everytime you reject that gospel you are hardening your heart and creating a callous against His voice... At some point He may stop calling you and leave you to your delusion and finally destruction. That was your choice.. Not His because He didnt create hell for you he created it for satan and his minions who hate Him but if you despise God like satan does.. where do you think you should go?

 

[Faithfulservant]

Dondi,

It seems to me, as you know, that we have been given choice and also that God Loves us unconditionally. Threfore God REQUIRES nothing in return. God has no requirements. That is the nature of Love. It is complete and without need. Creation can only be what IT IS at this moment and will fulfill its destiny according to its created nature in time as influenced by choice, circumstances and a myriad of other modifiers yet, there is not even one speck of dust out of place in the entire universe. There is no chaos as some would have us believe. All is perfect and can be seen for what it is through the mind of Christ. And you Dondi, as I, have the mind of Christ and know all things. It is only our human mind that is having the trouble reconciling these linguistic words where no words are even needed.

You say some may not discover at all but I do not see that as a possibility since it is purposed otherwise by design and intrinsic essence that in the fulness of times all things shall return to source. (so to speak only since they have not really left nor is there anywhere to go in reality.)

When a change in awareness takes place, there is a change in us. It is not a question of being required to change. It is the inherrent destiny of creation. Knowing of truth/light consumes darkness and ignorance with the brightness of its coming. (so to speak) It is not a matter of doing anything. Actions follow knowing (faith not just belief) and not the other way around.

Perhaps I have merely generated more questions....

Love and Peace,
JM

You speak the words of men and have not the words of the risen Lord, Jesus Christ.

Where you are right that God loves us unconditionally, He requires you to accept the sacrifice of His son Jesus Christ in order to partake in His grace.

God will love you forever and eternity into the lake of fire but you will not have the covering of His grace because Jesus is the way the truth and the life and noone comes to the Father but by Him. Jesus said "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

 

[Quahom1]

You speak the words of men and have not the words of the risen Lord, Jesus Christ.

Where you are right that God loves us unconditionally, He requires you to accept the sacrifice of His son Jesus Christ in order to partake in His grace.

God will love you forever and eternity into the lake of fire but you will not have the covering of His grace because Jesus is the way the truth and the life and noone comes to the Father but by Him. Jesus said "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Easy there kiddo. I know what you are saying. So do alot of other folk here. No need to bring out a sword. As a falable human, you might accidently fall on it.

MJ has his/her opinion. You perceive the truth, and that's all that matters. I believe what you believe. Take comfort in that.

very respectfully,

Q

 

[shadowman]

so in the end, god is cool with human beings being tormented forever...

 

[shadowman]

Where you are right that God loves us unconditionally, He requires you to accept the sacrifice of His son Jesus Christ in order to partake in His grace.

requirement ... condition.... hey! who's counting!!

 

[Dor]

dont you hell believers see. YOU GUYS ARE JUSTIFYING ETERNAL TORMENT OF PEOPLE. THIS IS LIKE AUSCHWITZ BUT FOREVER

hOW CAN THIS POSSIBLY BE OK???

Thats the big difference here Shadowman.
I do not justify anything.
What happens is cause God decides what happens and it does not really matter much what we think about it.
Take yourself off the throne and put Christ there where he belongs.
If there are things that you can not fathom or understand then let them go and quit trying to rationalize God and deciding if you approve of what he does.

 

[shadowman]

I see. we might as well just kill ourselves so we get there faster. why bother thinking about anything. its not like we matter to god!

 

[Dor]

I see. we might as well just kill ourselves so we get there faster. why bother thinking about anything. its not like we matter to god!

Ok I can see there is no use trying to talk to you cause you are not going to listen and are going to twist everything anyone says.
Everyone matters to God but you trying to make God out to be an uncaring evil thing is walking a fine line.

 

[JosephM]

I would ask kindly that you do not push people away from the Word of God. Joseph I know that you do not believe that the bible is from God but this IS Christianity and we believe the bible..you do NOT speak for people of this faith.

(snip)

Faithfulservant,

With all due respect, I am not pushing people away from the word of God. The Word or Logos of God is present everywhere. The Word or logos is living and books can only contain a RECORD written by men of what they say God told them. It is the choice of people to either believe every written word or not in the Bible but it is a fact that the Word of God is not in letters but in Spirit. You are entitled to your view as am I and believing the Bible as written by men and translated by men is Gods Word is not a biblical requirement to be called a Christian. See Acts 11:26 . At that time they had no printing presses or New Testament Bibles. They were Christ-like, followed Christ and it had nothing to do with believing a Book that didn't even exist at that time.

Best Wishes on your journey.
Love and Peace,
JM

 

[Faithfulservant]

At that time they had no printing presses or New Testament Bibles. They were Christ-like, followed Christ and it had nothing to do with believing a Book that didn't even exist at that time

Tell that to the scribes that had to handwrite the scriptures until there were printing presses.. lol And tell that to John Peter Timothy Paul etc.. who wrote the letters through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.. tell them that they werent receiving the word of the Lord. I wonder if Jesus telling John to write what he saw I wonder if John thought that the words would just be mere words of man and I wonder if Jesus would approve of you telling people that believing Him isnt a requirement.


2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,

 

[wil]

2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,

What is defined as ALL Scripture when there wasn't a cannonized version? We do know the Sutras and the Vedas were Scripture at that time this was written....

And we do know that Second Timothy was definitely not scripture at the time it was written but the letter is considered scripture today.

In Second Timothy specifically prior to your quote we read:

1But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. 2People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— 5having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with them..... 14But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, 15and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

Two items bolded one that they knew the Holy Scriptures since their infancy...I wonder what those early Christians considered Holy...odds are many books that were cannonized...and a few that werent...so these were all written 20-30 years prior...which makes all of Paul's letters...not part of the holy scripture to which is referred.

Also Paul, like many today...was positive he was living in the endo of times, describing the events and the people not to associate with in those last days. Tis obvious they weren't the last days then as he warned Timothy, nor were they the last days all the hundreds of times predicted by every generation since...nor do I believe they are the last days today...

So if Paul was wrong about that....how is the rest of his writings holy and assurred to be worthy of quoting?

 

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Wil!

I have an answer to your question, one that seems obvious and logical to me, but that I doubt anybody here is gonna like.

What is defined as ALL Scripture when there wasn't a cannonized version?

Sure there was...even if "canonized" isn't quite the correct term.

...they knew the Holy Scriptures since their infancy...I wonder what those early Christians considered Holy...?

It seems to me that as recently converted Jews, the Holy Scriptures being referred to are specifically the Old Testament Scriptures; especially the Torah and attendant oral tradition. To the Jews of that day and time, the Old Testament was precisely ALL Scripture.

The fact that some of the recent converts may have began calling themselves Christians does not negate the fact they were still intrinsicly Jewish.

My two cents...

 

[Faithfulservant]

You know wil, I think if you took as much time reading the bible as you do reading things that oppose the bible I think you may find the truth has been there all along.

1 Co 1:21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

You have put a stumbling block in front of yourself in your attempt to find the truth in things and people of the world.. the wonder of the gospel is its simpleness.

 

[Faithfulservant]

Something to add is that the Old and New Testament means the Old and New Covenant. I think its interesting how this is suddenly a discussion on the validity of the New Testament. We consider John the Baptist the last of the Old Testament prophets and he was the voice in the wilderness declaring Jesus Christ. Whether this means anything or not I just felt like pointing it out... I actually think I lost my train of thought.

Oh yeah.. juantoo hit the nail on the head.. and the apostles saw and spoke with Jesus Christ.. so their word to a Christian is just as valid as any OT prophet. They witnessed God on earth.. To discount that because their writings werent as old as the OT scrolls is foolishness.

 

[wil]

You know wil, I think if you took as much time reading the bible as you do reading things that oppose the bible...

I think I spend more time with the bible and hardly any time with books in opposition...and all my questions were in relation to your biblical quote.

.... We consider John the Baptist the last of the Old Testament prophet... and the apostles saw and spoke with Jesus Christ.. so their word to a Christian is just as valid as any OT prophet. They witnessed God on earth.. To discount that because their writings werent as old as the OT scrolls is foolishness.

My meager bible memory says John is entirely New Covenant and not mentioned in the Old anywhere...I don't recall Paul meeting Jesus either other than his vision....but then we'll toss anyone out on their heels that has those visions in this forum...back to the book I guess as Paul is the most prevelant cannonized author of scripture....he must have met Jesus somewhere....

No where do I intend the New Testament should be tossed nor give anything more ancient claim or corner on truth.

 

[JosephM]

Tell that to the scribes that had to handwrite the scriptures until there were printing presses.. lol And tell that to John Peter Timothy Paul etc.. who wrote the letters through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.. tell them that they werent receiving the word of the Lord. I wonder if Jesus telling John to write what he saw I wonder if John thought that the words would just be mere words of man and I wonder if Jesus would approve of you telling people that believing Him isnt a requirement.


2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,

Faithfulservant,

Not to labor the point, at the time of Acts Chapter 11 we have no record that all of those early Christians in Antioh had even OT scripture. Many were unlearned and Gentiles. Paul preached, people were saved and God transformed them. Many never read a word of text. Never was a requirement to be called a Christian. Pauls letters were just that. He never called them scripture. He said they were letters (epistoles) written with his own hand and did not say with the hand of God. Yes they contain inspired words that I believe he received from the spirit of God but even he knew the difference between letters and the "Word of God" which is not contained in any book nor was the book a requirement to believe it all to be called a Christian. That is all I that I was saying.

It seems to me that Wil pointed out accurately the word scripture in 2 Tim was not referring to 2 Tim as Paul addressed it as a letter and not scripture as he did with all his letters.

Love and Peace,
JM