Belief and Mental Health

[Snoopy]

Hi,

Taking my cue from a question raised by Ardenz; “Is there a relationship between Religious mania and madness?” (in the Dialogue about Dialogue thread) I thought it is an area that I’ve not seen discussed on here before. For starters I found this...



Mental Health and Religion

- this whole site has a lot of interesting stuff on it, including links. Just a flavour:


“In a nutshell, they find that people who are involved in religion also report greater levels of happiness than do those who are not religious. For example, one study involved over 160,000 people in Europe. Among weekly churchgoers, 85% reported being "very satisfied" with life, but this number reduced to 77% among those who never went to church (Inglehart, 1990). This kind of pattern is typical -- religious involvement is associated with modest increases in happiness.”

“Researchers have reported that Jehovah's Witnesses have a somewhat higher rate of schizophrenia, and that the disorder is more common among cloistered nuns than among active nuns. There may be something about the structured lifestyle provided by conservative religions, or the life of contemplation and reflection found in a cloistered life, that appeals to the person whose sense of reality differs from that of people not affected by schizophrenia.”

So, to what extent do you think beliefs affect our mental health or states of mind (and vice versa) ?

s.

 

[dauer]

I think to a huge extent there's a relationship. If you look at for example the shamans and prophets of various religions, I think they probably would have been diagnosed in many cases as mentally ill by Western medicine. Of course in general I think the modern approach does more harm than good by labeling what is "normal" and labeling everything else "abnormal" instead of different.

And when you think about the types of experiences that religion can stimulate, that's not normal. It's abnormal. So I think that religion can also develop these latent tendencies on otherwise normal folks.

It's important imo to reclaim "thinking different." Not Manson different, but Ezekiel and maybe Elijah different. Elijah was a bit of a nut, but I think some of that may have also been due to cultural conditioning that glorified mass slaughter of the other. I really have no response to the whole Isaiah wandering around naked thing.

 

[Prober]

I think you could relate this to the "reasonable / unreasonable faith" discussion.

 

[Caimanson]

“In a nutshell, they find that people who are involved in religion also report greater levels of happiness than do those who are not religious. For example, one study involved over 160,000 people in Europe. Among weekly churchgoers, 85% reported being "very satisfied" with life, but this number reduced to 77% among those who never went to church (Inglehart, 1990). This kind of pattern is typical -- religious involvement is associated with modest increases in happiness.”

I don't know about being happier, looking back at all the churches I've been to, I don't think so (but maybe I've been mostly to the wrong ones).

For the sake of argument, take the last one I attended, if 85% said they were very satisfied with life then I'd say its a lie, either a hypocritical lie or a lie in blindness.

I am getting more and more convinced that religious peolple aren't as nice as non religious ones, and I don't mean nice in a superficial level, I mean better human beings. By contrast I also think that a lot of the most exceptional people are spiritual ones, but these tend to be exceptional.

Imo religion is both a therapy and a coping mechanism, so it has the potential to attract mostly those that experience difficulty with life.

 

[dauer]

Imo religion is both a therapy and a coping mechanism, so it has the potential to attract mostly those that experience difficulty with life.

When you think about it, the clergy used to be the therapists. If you're struggling with something you go to your rabbi or minister. You make confession to a priest, do yechidus with your rebbe. What's the perscription? Do 3 hail marys, recite psalms, chew on this koan, do more charity work, go up to that person you wronged and apologize, give back the chicken you stole, focus your study on some particular passages about why it's wrong to slander other people.

 

[Tao_Equus]

The links between 'brain disorders' and religious fervour also exist such as in those with certain types of epilepsy.
Seizures and the Sight of God

Researchers interested in the connection of the brain and religion have examined the experiences of people suffering from Temporal Lobe Epilepsy. Apparently the increased electrical activity in the brain resulting from seizure activity (abnormal electrical activity within localized portions of the brain), makes sufferers more susceptible to having religious experiences including visions of supernatural beings and near death experiences (NDEs)

Given this it is perhaps wrong of anyone here, myself especially, to make any kind of diagnosis on anyone from their posts.

Extreme religious attitudes without a doubt appear as a kind of mania to the moderate or non-religious observer. The reasons for that may be a case for lengthy debate. Does religion exacerbate these tendencies in an ever diminishing spiral of increasing extremes? Does religion attract the already ill? Can religion cause these extremes in an otherwise healthy brain? And perhaps most profoundly of all is all religious experience a mental illusion?

This is a Pandora's box of an issue to be sure.

TE

 

[Caimanson]

When you think about it, the clergy used to be the therapists. If you're struggling with something you go to your rabbi or minister. You make confession to a priest, do yechidus with your rebbe. What's the perscription? Do 3 hail marys, recite psalms, chew on this koan, do more charity work, go up to that person you wronged and apologize, give back the chicken you stole, focus your study on some particular passages about why it's wrong to slander other people.

Indeed. You also count with the support of other believers, and religion itself as a tool of self help and personal development.
I think that the greatest dangers and the greatest blessings come from interacting with fellow believers, a double edged sword.

 

[Prober]

Extreme religious attitudes without a doubt appear as a kind of mania to the moderate or non-religious observer. The reasons for that may be a case for lengthy debate. Does religion exacerbate these tendencies in an ever diminishing spiral of increasing extremes? Does religion attract the already ill? Can religion cause these extremes in an otherwise healthy brain? And perhaps most profoundly of all is all religious experience a mental illusion?

This is a Pandora's box of an issue to be sure.

TE

Really good questions - especially the last one. Fodder for good discussion, to be sure!

I don't know the answers. I think religious experience is subjective, but not a mental illusion (although it could be for some).

 

[dauer]

A link of some relevance:

The Society for Laingian Studies

R.D. Laing was a psychologist who studied schyzophrenia and shamanism. One of his suggestions is that conditioning children to fit into the societal norm is reinforcing a type of delusion in itself and that by rejecting the conditioning the schyzophrenic may have greater access to truths that we suppress.

Edit: Wanted to add this link to a specific article by him on Transcendental Experience in Relation to Religion and Psychosis: SLS · Bibliography · Transcendental Experience in Relation to Religion and Psychosis

 

[Tao_Equus]

A link of some relevance:

The Society for Laingian Studies

R.D. Laing was a psychologist who studied schyzophrenia and shamanism. One of his suggestions is that conditioning children to fit into the societal norm is reinforcing a type of delusion in itself and that by rejecting the conditioning the schyzophrenic may have greater access to truths that we suppress.

Edit: Wanted to add this link to a specific article by him on Transcendental Experience in Relation to Religion and Psychosis: SLS · Bibliography · Transcendental Experience in Relation to Religion and Psychosis

Interesting piece. I have had the luck to have known a handful of diagnosed schizophrenics down the years and as this article states the reality of their experience is strangely mystical. From my experience the level of lucid justification and the level of detail of a schizophrenics delusions can be startling and convincing. I cant be sure from this single article but I feel this R.D.Laing is pushing some mystical belief or another from what i read. Please correct me if I am wrong.
Irregular brain chemistry and over-active neural activity both cause hallucinations that are the hallmark of schizophrenia. In the UK the are a 1/4 million diagnosed cases. In the US its 2.2 million. These are significant numbers of people who often develop extremely similar mystical experiences. Often the 'paranoia's' they exhibit are perfectly reasonable views that are what most of us would deem 'over personalised'. The normal range of human thought taken to extremes. The article clearly seems to me to suggest the author believes all such delusions to stem from the psyche rather than externally yet also links in mystical aspects. I find this a bit confusing. But maybe I read it too fast.
I believe that schizophrenia is often a 'reality trauma' in so much that a person taught in one way loses this belief and is faced with an overwhelming stun from the barbarity of actual reality. As you state we suppress much. Even that of which we comment on every day is suppressed. But when a schizophrenic episode ensues then reality can become big and huge and ugly and over-power the mind. What we would normally dislike takes on grandiose hideousness. And of course conversely a simple appreciation can take on ecstatic mystical relevance.
With so many of the great contributors to our human culture known to have had these illnesses they must be viewed as part of the rich tapestry of the human psyche. But I am not at all sure these illnesses can add weight to any camp in the God/no God debate.

TE

 

[wil]

I'm over all relatively happy...and crazy...and go to church...I see the connections...I am the connections...

 

[dauer]

Tao,

I don't think he's pushing any particular mystical view, but just that the process a schyzophrenic goes through via therapy should take its cue from the shamans of old so that the schyzophrenia becomes a psychonautic journey instead of something that must be destroyed. Imo his view is simply more integral and he makes an important distinction between the Inner World and the Outer World, with some of the difficulties being rooted in a confusion of the Inner for the Outer. He does also state in this essay that this is not something true for all schyzophrenics but that a schyzophrenic has opened the door to those types of experiences.

I don't think it's healthy to confuse the biological realities of schyzophrenia with schyzophrenia itself. That seems a bit reductionist to me. Irregular as a term works but I think as it relates to psychiatric conditions it becomes a problem when we confuse it for something being wrong. For that person it may be normal and the best thing for them may be to integrate what makes them different.

My suggestion, taking a cue from Laing, is that not only are psychiatric conditions often akin to spiritual experience, but that those we associate with being able to reach other planes or world, with bringing down some type of "higher wisdom" could have themselves been labeled mentally ill. In other words the real problem is the Western labeling of these conditions as an illness and treating it much like a cancer, as something that needs to be removed and suppressed.

There are cases where it gets out of hand and much more serious measures need to be taken but I think that if as a society we approach it with a more integral perspective and create a space for its healthy expression then the times it becomes more problematic will be less often.

Dauer

 

[Tao_Equus]

Hi Dauer,

I could not agree more. I know that many that have had what we define as genius in a number of fields have had this condition. I would never think less of anybody for this.

Interesting to note that big business studies it on terms of how many man hours work are lost, and want to find drugs to reduce it. Sick reason.

TE

 

[Caimanson]

Tao,

I don't think he's pushing any particular mystical view, but just that the process a schyzophrenic goes through via therapy should take its cue from the shamans of old so that the schyzophrenia becomes a psychonautic journey instead of something that must be destroyed. Imo his view is simply more integral and he makes an important distinction between the Inner World and the Outer World, with some of the difficulties being rooted in a confusion of the Inner for the Outer. He does also state in this essay that this is not something true for all schyzophrenics but that a schyzophrenic has opened the door to those types of experiences.

Well explained Dauer.
Is not about endorsing the delusion, the 'craziness' points and reprensents the cause of the problems.
Working with the elements that makeup the patient's reality, using the same symbols and talking the same language, trying to understand from the patient's pov.

So here is the potential of religious belief, even if it's all a fantasy.

 

[dauer]

Caimanson,

I can't say that I really agree with your read of what I was saying. I don't see the schyzophrenia as a problem so much as problematic within the context of a society based on the conditioned suppression of the inner world. I also don't think of the schyzophrenic's experience of reality as fantasy any more than I think G!d or the sacred texts of the world's religions are fantasy. It's myth and in that it can potentially contain many significant truths, some impossible to verbalize effectively, while not being literally true. An astute observation Laing makes in his essay:

"One of the difficulties of talking in the present day of these matters is that the very existence of inner realities is now called into question."


As a society, we've gotten to the point that we belittle personal experience and turn the so-called objective into an idol. It's a reactionary posture of Enlightenment thinking in response to what it couldn't put under a microscope. To me the only thing we can truly deny about the subjective is the universality of inner reality when taken as a literal truth. For the individual, the experience is very real and the personal knowledge and wisdom potentially gained can be beneficial to oneself and ideally also to others.

Dauer

 

[Tao_Equus]

Much madness is divinest sense
To a discerning eye;
Much sense the starkest madness.
'T is the majority
In this, as all, prevails.
Assent, and you are sane;
Demur, -- you're straightway dangerous,
And handled with a chain.

Emily Dickinson.

 

[Prober]

Oooh, I like that! (Love E D in general)

 

[Snoopy]

I think to a huge extent there's a relationship. If you look at for example the shamans and prophets of various religions, I think they probably would have been diagnosed in many cases as mentally ill by Western medicine. Of course in general I think the modern approach does more harm than good by labeling what is "normal" and labeling everything else "abnormal" instead of different.
And when you think about the types of experiences that religion can stimulate, that's not normal. It's abnormal. So I think that religion can also develop these latent tendencies on otherwise normal folks.
It's important imo to reclaim "thinking different." Not Manson different, but Ezekiel and maybe Elijah different. Elijah was a bit of a nut, but I think some of that may have also been due to cultural conditioning that glorified mass slaughter of the other. I really have no response to the whole Isaiah wandering around naked thing.

I hope it’s OK to be "different" or "abnormal" as long as our mental health is not detrimental to our own (or others) general well being and ability to function in life.

It seems to me that modern Western society itself is the root cause of much of the apparent increasing level of poor mental health.

s.

 

[ardenz]

So, to what extent do you think beliefs affect our mental health or states of mind (and vice versa) ?

s.

Thanks for starting this thread Snoopy.

There are some interesting genetic studies being done, about possible links between schizophrenia and alcoholism. Recently I was asked while donating blood if I would take part in such a study (...as the control group - ??!!)

I can understand religious belief working as a grounding mechanism for people who are chaotic.. but then the same behavioural instincts, whether its a chemical imbalance or other, maybe trigger delusions.

On another mental health note: Buddhist mindfullness meditation, as an adjunct to Cognitive Behavioural Therapy (CBT) has been proven to be very effective for depression and much more. CBT and meditation being preferable to handing out pills.

"mindfullness meditation is a technique in which a person becomes intentionally aware of his or her thoughts and actions in the present moment, non-judgmentally" -wikipedia

"CBT is based on the idea that how we think (cognition), how we feel (emotion), and how we act (behaviour) all interact together. Specifically, our thoughts influence our feelings and our behavior. Therefore, negative and unrealistic thoughts can cause us distress and result in problems."- wikipedia

So yes, I think our beliefs affect how we think, how we feel and act.
........
now where is that little blue pill

 

[earl]

I entered into college during the hey day of RD Laing and studied his thought. It seems that he and his followers have almost glamorized such severe mental illnesses as schizophrenia as the harbinger of mysticism and spiritual break-through. In 25 years+ work in mental health can't say I've ever known that to be the case. Am on-call and spent 2 hours in our local ER last night attending to some poor 18 y.o. in 4-point restraints with 6 people including police officers holding him down for over 2 hours in a severely combative, psychotic state while the ER doctor tried to sew up his face after he had thrust his head through the police car window in which he was being transported.

There have been good attempts made to carefully distinguish between symptoms of spiritual difficulties and actual mental illness in tranpersonal psychology with David Lukoff being the lead exponent. Here's his overview:

From Spiritual Emergency to Spiritual Problem: The Transpersonal Roots of the New DSM-IV Category

There is a big difference. earl