Belief and Mental Health

Is there a relationship between Religious mania and madness?”


I think severe depression and mental breakdown's leave a person especially sensitive to relearning the world through a very different lense.

Coming out of a pretty heavy depression in 1996 I found myself opening up to whole new realms of spiritual understanding I'd either ignored or else been unable to deal with before.

I then withdraw from the world as a teetotal celibate vegan and just spent most of my time getting stoned and meditating on keeping in touch with this incredibly powerful spiritual vein I was able to tap into.

Following was a kind of Prophetic/Messianic experience, where you become so overwhelmed by the spiritual information you can draw in, that your relationship to the world can seem like it only makes sense if you're a prophet of some kind.

It really is a very self-centered perception, though, but I also think it's something that a person needs to spiritually grow through - I think there are huge spiritual pitfalls and dangers, such as claiming authority and titles, which I would argue are expressions of ego and self.

This is why although I may not necessarily agree with the positions of the Born Again's and modern-day Prophets I come across online, I can seriously sympathise with their positions because I've been through similar overwhelming experiences myself - but I also see them as immaturely developed because by putting them above people they break a fundamental spiritual rule that we are all equal.

I've been planning to write a whole series of posts sharing my own spiritual insights and perceptions in a column next to Bobby's, if nothing else because it may stimulate interesting discussion - but also because I don't put enough of myself emotionally into CR.

I guess in conclusion - spiritual experiences in themselves are extraordinary, therefore it can require an extraordinary state of mind to experience them. But an extraordinary state of mind does not in itself guarantee the spiritual experience.

2c.
 
The balance between a rational approach and accepting the mystical relevance to the individual concerned is a very delicate one. I do agree that Mr laing does tend to over-grandise the situation of hallucinatory experience in the schizophrenic. But at least his efforts are /were a genuine attempt at empathic meeting on a non-judgemental playing field. Earl's link clearly shows the lack of relevance and respect that psychiatry has for the mystical safety-net that the sick tend to construct. Would be nice to see mainstream doctors utilising this sense of mysticism rather than a battery of zombie drugs.

TE
 
Hi to all!:)

I just wanted to say Thank You for all the interestesting posts (and maybe more to come...). The topic of this thread is something which interests me greatly so a special thanks to Ardenz to coming up with the suggestion. There's plenty of good reading and thoughtful stuff on here already so I'd better get delving...

Snoopy.
 
I think you could relate this to the "reasonable / unreasonable faith" discussion.


I see what you mean. An atheist and a theist may both think the other being “unreasonable”; it’s unreasonable to believe in God when you can present no proof / it’s unreasonable not to believe in God when the proof is all around us. This I hope would not lead a psychiatrist to determine that one or the other has poor mental health on this basis. After all, there must be psychiatrists of all persuasions regarding the existence or otherwise of God / deities etc (I hope!). According to the World Health Organisation, mental disorder is “the existence of a clinically recognisable set of symptoms or behaviour associated in most cases with distress and with interference with personal function.”

s.
 
big long post this...

... I had a religious experience in 1994. In 1995 I was diagnosed with schizophrenia. I had gone to the doctors for anti-biotics, she struck up a conversation with me, and I'm all loved up and blissed out on my religious trip, lets not forget I'm only 19, and like flower power, and am dropping a lot of acid, and I tell her about where I am in life...

... the next thing I know my GP is telling me I have schizophrenia and she bases this diagnosis on my abnormal beliefs and positive symptoms- mainly that I could now hear the thoughts of others (aural hallucinations), I was having bizzare bodily sensations, like those in temporal lobe epilepsy, somato-sensory hallucinations, I was intensely spiritual and devoted my time to reading and talking about religion, yet as my new found faith was mainly "Indian" and therefore, alien to me as a white working class woman, this was evidence of my beliefs being abnormal for someone of my culture, and the icing on the cake was I believed in magic powers, and believed I had them myself, which was evidence of magical thinking. How preposterous that I should think I had always been a psychic, with my clairvoyant dreams. How insane I was to attribute these new found delusions to my religious experience, and she gave me some pills.

I tried the pills for about a month. I was heavily sedated and spent most of the time in bed. I also gained a lot of weight rapidly and became spotty and depressed. I was also having chest pains and was finding it difficult to breathe. (The pills have since been banned for causing heart problems, btw... )

anyway, against doctors orders I threw the pills away, packed a bag and went on the run, away from the CPN's who wanted to come to my house and inject me, far away from the shrinks who wanted to incarcerate me for thought-crime... I hadn't made a bomb to kill those secret satanic pensioners down the road with. I wasn't plotting to put sarin gas in the subway. I hadn't wanted to harm anyone- on the contrary! I felt it was somehow down to me to show the world this great thing I'd seen, even if I didnt know quite what it was yet. I wasn't painting the windows black and hiding behind the sofa. I wasn't acting inapropriately in Asda, yet because I was intensely religious and spent a lot of time studying texts and meditating and had these "delusions", I was told I was a schizophrenic and had a poor prognosis because it had all started so early, and I'd probably end my days a rambling incoherent mess dressed in rags and sleeping rough on the streets. Unless I took these pills.

Great news, when ur 19.

So, what happenned next I hear you ask? Can you imagine what happens when you leave a schizophrenic like me all alone, a person who is hearing things and seeing things and having these bizzare abnormal bodily sensations and these visions and dreams, a person without "support", either ppl, such as social workers, cpn's, psychiatrists, and also without medication, for ten years?

Well, I didn't run round the town naked. I didn't wear a bed sheet and proclaim myself to be the new messiah in the town square. I did not think my neighbours were poisoning me or that my cat was the anti-Christ. I did not take the tablets, I was not forcibly injected once a month to develop tardive dyskinesia, sulcal widening and hypertrophy of the amydgalae, and I was never an inpatient in a psychiatric facility, voluntarily or not.

Instead, I kept up my studies, I went on religious retreats, I danced with gopis in Vrndavana, I prostrated before the Buddha, i did zazen sessins, tantric visualisations and voluntary work, I had a social life, I was accepted by the communities I visited and met a few good "lamps for the path" along the way. I realised that actually, I wasn't the only one to experience such things, there were lots of us, and it was only as significant as the significance which was placed upon it.

Now, if I really am a schizophrenic and have such a poor prognosis, why hasn't it all gone wrong yet? How come I havent ended up in the hospital, dosed up to the eyeballs..? How come I'm not in jail? could it be because I'm not actually a schizophrenic at all?

surely they didn't get it wrong..?

Most cultures traditionally saw those with mental health problems in one of two ways- either u were possessed by devils/demons, or u were a holy being, touched (by God), a child of the Gods... this of course, if different from being a seer, or being a visionary, or a saint, and yet, at least this difference is recognised in religion... in psychiatry, there is no room for this difference, and yet it exists.

If you get your average saint or mystic from any faith, and we look at them via any ranking system for determining mental illness, most of them have enough symptoms to be diagnosed with a severe and enduring mental health problem. Yet they are not howling at the moon or covered in faeces. They are not randomly stabbing you in the head on the train. They are not hearing voices telling them to kill their children- unless they are Abraham... and he doesn't count, does he? as he never did the deed...

anyway...

As Rd Laing found with Mary Barnes, all the best intentions in the world are no good to a person with the type of florid and long lasting psychosis which is resulting in them almost starving to death and covering themselves and their enviroment in excrement, as did Mary Barnes. Schizophrenia exists. I know it exists because I work with people who have it. There is a world of difference between Mary Barnes and say, Moses, although if we gave Moses a shed load of anti-psychotics for 30 years then maybe he too would drool, and shake, and shuffle, and be incoherent at 55.

What Laing taught me was... the system becomes too reliant on controlling symptoms, instead of appreciating that these symptoms are relevant and need to be understood for what they are, worked with, rather than against, and he suggested to me that sometimes its better for everyone if you allow ppl some room to become more congruent in a real and lasting way, rather than suppress symptoms with drugs indefinately, the by-product of which is, unfortunately, lasting neurological changes of a type which eventually become more disabling than the initial "positive" or "first rank" symptoms.

I am anti-psychiatry, but only up to a point. Some people need more help than others, are more disabled by their symptoms than others, but the current conventional one-size-fits-all approach to psychiatry does the majority of ppl it supposedly serves a great disservice. In-patient psychiatric services in my country are abysmal, unsafe, dirty, overcrowded, noisy places, with little in the way of therapy apart from increased doses of medication, and it's all about control and containment, and rather than be symptom management in a therapeutic setting it's like being in any institution- a horrible place with a two-tier system where those with the badges know less than the people without them... there is no real treatment- and people, once diagnosed, are put on medication for often the rest of their lives, they develop diabetes, blood disorders, liver and kidney and heart problems, they develop neurological deficits, and they drift, from crisis to crisis with a whole raft of ineffective services given to them which they are supposed to show gratitude in receiving but which help little.

We deprive ppl of their civil liberties, we dose them up, we try to control their lives in every area, we infantilise them and then berate and patronise them because they cannot cope, because they forget how to, and they are forced into the sick-role and become stereotypical mental patients, which is scandalous, and lets face it, counter-productive.

...it made me laugh to read that u felt like a prophet, I Brian- so did I! Most of us do. Hopefully that bit wears off, though, and u realise u're not the only one...

...let's not forget that this "Irregular brain chemistry and over-active neural activity" tao equus, which you think is the cause of schizophrenia is only usually discovered post mortem OR discovered in those who are already taking anti-psychs, and may be a direct result of taking anti-psychotic medication rather than be a true symptom of the condition.

I spent some time in a therapeutic community, as an observer, to better appreciate the "millieux", and on speaking to the resident psychiatrist he gave me some stats- 70% of the ppl who stayed at this particular community benefitted from it because the community inside was a safer yet identical model of that outside- workers did not become decision makers, everyone did. People didn't get ministered to by nurses, and medicated- they worked alongside co-workers in the gardens, cooked meals together, coming to terms with their crises in their own fashion with real peer support, and they made it through to the other side. After their stay, they did not go on to go in and out of hospital- something had changed for them. They had realised their strengths, they had been a valued part of a community of equals, and they had changed.

...therapeutic communities work. They work in jails with lifers, they work with drug addicts, they work for people with mental health problems, they work for children with behavioural and emotional problems. They are humane and cost effective. Yet...

they're as rare as hen's teeth.
 
I appreciate your personal post Francis. Yes it is very important for mental health folk, as that link to Lukoff's work intimates, to attempt to differentiate schizophrenia form other phenomena as you descirbe-you're obviously not schizophrenic. You mentioned that you may have had some psychic experiences. Admittedly, personal/cultural belief systems of practitioners do influence their presumptions about what is going on with someone and, if you deal with a professional that does not believe it's possible to have psychic experiences, than there is the possibility that that person is going to see such an experience as "pathology." That is what Lukoff meant re ensuring professionals receive training in various "exceptional" states of consciousness. But, then again, when 1 lives in a culture that is still largely of a reductionistic-materialistic view of Reality, odds are not good professionals will receive training re that. I know nothing re the mental health system of the UK and can really only speak of practices at our organization. However, even those professionals that are not open to considering the reality of these experiences are not going to suggest heavy duty meds simply for psychic experiences in and of themselves. Rather, as in the case of anti-psychotic meds, they may be suggested if the individual is experiencing debilitating "voices" of a more classic schizophrenic sort-i.e., persecutory and/or command hallucinations, as in the example I gave of the young fellow requiring 6 people and 4 sets of hand-cuffs to keep him and others safe from him- at least at that point in time he would require more than a therapeutic community. have a good one, earl
 
Francis,

What a wonderful post to read!!

You most evidently understand this subject to a far greater extent than I but from what little I do know I support the value of everything you say. And it mirrors my own views down to the last full stop.

Just 1 point tho, when you quote me
..let's not forget that this "Irregular brain chemistry and over-active neural activity" tao equus, which you think is the cause of schizophrenia is only usually discovered post mortem OR discovered in those who are already taking anti-psychs, and may be a direct result of taking anti-psychotic medication rather than be a true symptom of the condition.
I actually made a very incoherent post there and failed to mention temporal lobe epilepsy as I had intended. I have seen nothing to suggest that these two irregularities are to be found in the schizophrenic. Perhaps I should stick to what I know reasonably well rather than trying to dive between sites stealing statistics to make a post :p

TE
 
Wow Francis and Brian, hats off to you for honesty. Thank you both your posts they were wonderful to read.

It does leave me rather worried though, I shall explain. To be honest I would never have mentioned this if the 2 of you hadn't been so honest. Looking at the people that have posted on this thread it seems (forgive me if I am wrong) that the people with the strongest faith in G-d also appear to be those that have or had issues with mental health - myself included.

I was diagnosed with bipolar disorder many years ago and it was believed that I suffered with this disorder since about 8 years old. Nothing like your experience Francis, just uncontrollable mood swings (huge ones, from suicidal to 5 star, isn't the world great, spending spree's). I popped 2 pills every day and functioned almost normally (although with virtually no emotion). I had a brilliant career, blah, blah, blah. I then started looking into Islam and decided, within a week, to throw my meds in the bin. Okay big no-no, you have to come off them slowly right? Well I just chucked them away and dealt with the fallout. I wrote myself notes and stuck them all over the house, things like "you feel this way today but tomorrow you will feel better" and "if you kill yourself today then you'll miss the up of tomorrow". Wow what a way to live but now I don't even need the notes.

As you can see I made it through, almost unscathed. I have been off the meds now for almost 6 years and to be honest my faith has replaced the drugs. Yes I still get 'woe is me days' but now I can recognise them for what they are and I still get manic days where spending is a must but the guilt of living among such poor people stops that dead in it's tracks. Basically I suppose I have found a replacement drug. I have never actually felt more sane or 'together' in my life, than I do now and I know I am a much better human being because of my faith. I have never had what you may call a religious experience.

So the questions I am left with are:

Do I believe in G-d because I have a mental illness?

If that is true is there any harm in it?

Sometimes my illness does affect my ability to reason, so why doesn't my faith go up and down with my mood swings? My faith remains constant.

If faith and mental illness go hand in hand then have billions of people gone nuts?


Any thoughts Earl? You see now I am really worried, I am actually doubting my faith (although makes a change from doubting my sanity :D).
 
Muslimwoman,

your story is inspirational for me. I too was diagnosed bipolar, in my case when I was very young -- I've been medicated since about the age of 13 -- and a couple months ago I stopped taking my medication. It was never really helpful and had significant side effects. Instead I returned to spiritual practices I'd neglected that have helped me in the past (significantly more than medication), changed my diet, am developing more structure in my lifestyle, and have been more avidly reading books on inner growth and personal development by different spiritual teachers.

I don't leave notes for myself. I'm pretty good at being aware of changes in my mood. When I start to feel a bit off I'll pick up my biofeedback system and do a meditation that focuses on fully expierencing the feeling without forcing it, just sitting with it, and then letting it pass of its own accord. In the past two months I've been more stable than I was the two months prior on the medication. I think my biggest struggle right now is that my mind is much busier. It's probably a little evident in the amount I've been posting here and to my blog.

Do I believe in G-d because I have a mental illness?

If that is true is there any harm in it?

I think equating ways of thinking and feeling that don't fit into the current definition of normal with illness is dangerous and devaluing. To me there's no harm in thinking differently and some mentalities often considered more normal are to me very negative like the stoic male who won't be openly emotional.

Sometimes my illness does affect my ability to reason, so why doesn't my faith go up and down with my mood swings? My faith remains constant.

For me the ways I relate to G!d vary depending on my mood. When I'm depressed there's a lot more yearning. Sometimes I'll just recite tehillim or sing a slow niggun and weep. When I'm more manic I feel more love and joy in G!d's presence and I tend to sing happy and ecstatic songs. I discovered the value of reciting tehillim for me at those times a number of years ago. It brings my feelings into focus.

Dauer
 
MuslimWoman and Dauer,

My hat of to you both for sharing this. One of my closest friends of many years has Bi-polar and has been hospitalised on at least 2 occasions because of it. About 3 years ago he too decided to stop the meds, and the 'self-prescribed meds' of illegal drugs he was taking. He still has difficult times but is so much more even-mooded than ever. In spite of his condition he has a very successful career and travels the world providing encryption services for big business. He has never mentioned religion to me however. I must ask him about it next time I see him.
I wish you both well in your chosen paths and applaud your bravery in not delegating your problems to doctors who in this field are little more than quacks.

TE
 
Tao,

I do believe in the value of "talk therapy" for, well, everyone really. And I think psychiatry does have its applications but not as a first line of defense. My sense based on talking to spiritual teachers and to various types of therapists about my struggles is that spiritual direction is a very important part of the process for me because of my focus on G!d and my tendency to frame my experiences in the language of religion. Most therapists I might go to see, they shy away from talk about G!d and there really isn't a part of my life that I feel is untouched by the Divine. Based on the reactions I've had in therapy to talking about my relationship with G!d or my spiritual practice I tend to hesitate bringing it up at all and yet that denies such a fundamental part of how I experience the world. I end up talking vaguely and avoiding any G!dtalk, and then when something slips and I say for example, "Everything happens for a reason" before I have a chance to go on to demonstrate the depth and meaningfulness this has for me, and the positive way I then interpret it, I'm questioned as to why I would think that.

It saddens me. I complain a lot about the enlightenment not because I'm anti-rational but because so much of the world denies everything else. A drash just came to me. The binding of Isaac, it's like Abraham is about to kill his inner child. And then G!d stops him. It was important for him to learn that he could restrain and control his inner child, that's a part of growing up, but the last thing he should do is destroy it. I think a lot of the world is sacrificing Isaac instead of binding him.

Dauer
 
tao- u should jump in when u like- I do it! throw my daftness into the orthodox camp, watch them all bristle, its great fun...

there is a lot of debate in psychiatry as to the causes of specific mental illnesses... in schizophrenia it is found that, post mortem, there is a lot of neurological differences between the schizophrenic and the normal brain-

there is some hypo- and hypertrophy of the amydgalae, which effects emotionality, yet its also a region of the brain which is also found atrophied in those who as children suffer from a lot of stress- apparently high levels of cortisol effect the amygdalae's development, and also causes what they call dendritic pruning- the fibres from the neurons become spindly, fewer...

...there is sulcal widening, where the sulcii, the gaps between the brain, appear to widen,

... and "the most common abnormality is enlarged ventricles, implying a loss of subcortical brain cells, which has been demonstrated both in postmortem studies (Dwork, 1997) and in PET scans (Nopoulos, Flaum and Andreasen, 1997). This enlargement is often striking enough that discordant twins can be discriminated by comparing the sizes of the ventricles in PET studies (Suddath et al, 1990). Furthermore, the enlargement is usually more marked in the part of the ventricular system that lies within the temporal lobe and particularly on the left side of the brain. (Crow et al, 1989)."

..."The prefrontal cortex (PFC), known to play a role in behaviours such as speech, decision-making and willed action, which are often disrupted in schizophrenia, has also been implicated in the disorder. MRI studies have found a reduction in grey matter in the PFC (Buchanan et al, 1998), and glucose metabolism imaging has shown that patients with schizophrenia have lower metabolic rates in this area (Buchsbaum et al, 1984). It has also been demonstrated that while performing neuropsychological tests of PFC functioning, such as the Wisconsin Card Sort Test, patients with schizophrenia do worse on the tests and fail to show normal activation in the prefrontal region (Fletcher et al, 1998)".

yet- all of these neurological changes which we discover post mortem may in fact be the result of the medication and not implicated in the disorder at all...

there is also a proposed genetic link in schizophrenia, yet again, we do not know if this is a true hereditable condition or it appears that people inherit it because they grow up around schizophrenics or are born into families with schizotypal traits...

and then we have the dopamine hypothesis, which states that in schizophrenia there is a lack of dopamine within the limbic system, or the D2 receptors become over-sensitive, which causes the hallucinations, etc...

..."There are, however, serious problems with dopamine dysfunction as a main cause of schizophrenia. It takes several weeks for antipsychotics to have an effect on symptoms, although they block the dopamine receptors straight away, which suggests that other neurotransmitters, perhaps serotonin or glutamate are also involved in schizophrenia".

... "Also, the dopamine theory predicts that lowering the level of dopamine in the brain to normal would alleviate symptoms, but in reality they have to be lowered to the levels found in Parkinson's disease in order to have any effect. Dopamine alone can, therefore, only play a small role in the aetiology of schizophrenia, and we must look to other causes to explain the disorder more completely".

"Current theories are, therefore, attempting to interlink these diverse aetiologies, and it is likely that a genetically determined neurodevelopmental cause underlies both the observed brain abnormalities and the dysfunctional dopamine systems so characteristic of schizophrenia".

please see the link for references listed above-

GOOD BRAIN - they're mental

so, in truth, we don't really know what causes schizophrenia... there's a few theories, but no real facts... it's too expensive to give everyone who might have a mental illness an MRI or a PET scan, so instead we rely on rating scales and medication...

of course, earl, sometimes ppl need more than a therapeutic community- and sometimes medication seems like the only path to take, yet I feel it should only be used when ppl are in an acute phase, and that once the positive symptoms have abated and ppl are stabilized they should have the medication reduced, tapered to a minimum dose, and hopefully, eventually, be weaned off this, rather than be prescribed it indefinately...

...but look at it the other way... if you told me that you were taking me to a mental health facility, and I didn't want to go, it would take six ppl to drag me there, too... if someone was going to lock you up, deprive you of your civil liberties, stick you in a dangerous, high stress enviroment, patronise and belittle you, and then forcibly strap you down and medicate you to the extent you dribbled like a baby, couldn't walk ten metres without falling over or gave you drugs that meant you had no bladder control, would you happily submit?

...yet we look at our young man, and we say- hey, he's violent and maybe dangerous! he's non-compliant! he won't do as he's told! he must be sick!
and slap the handcuffs on him, when maybe his behaviour is actually quite healthy...

muslimwoman- "Do u believe in G-d because u have a mental illness?"- no! u have Islam-itis! its a different kettle of fish!

dauer- you'll have to explain what tehillim and niggums are....
 
Interesting discussion and I'm wondering why the idea that spirit, faith, G-d, love of G-d, devotion, prayer, chanting....could replace meds, assist in healing mental disorders..why that seems contradictory?

It seems to me not all of us have mental disorders. It also seems to me that most of us believe that faith and prayer of some sort and G-d may be involved in healing of physical and mental issues.

It also doesn't seem out of the ordinary that when troubled we rely on spirit/faith.

Now another always interesting thing to me is the savants that are connected thoroughly on one plane yet lack social skills or something else that we decide to deem them less than worthy somehow.

Many a time I've contemplated who is in the asylum....is it the one wondering free and talking to the unseen? Or is it the one marching to everyone elses drum to satisfy a manmade construct of normalcy?
 
This is a facinating thread, and so much information as well. Having read Stanislov Grof's work on spiritual emergency I find the interconnections very revealing. I wonder sometimes if it isn't our very languange and symbols we use to describe the human experience of spiritual, emotional, and somatic problems the very thing that slows our progress in understanding more. In twelve step work, the idea of spiritual solutions is key to staying away from addictions, and healing from the things that pushed us toward such unhealthy self medication in the first place.
Many addicts ( and in some ways we are all addicts) seem to harbor the idea of an exterior locus of control. In moving away from an unhealthy cognitive framework toward a healthy one, we transplant the idea of being controlled by forces outside ourselves to that of being guided by a higher power. While under the protection and guidance of this power we begin to heal, supposedly now to assume responsibility for our life conditions, realizing it is our own state of consciousness that attracts and repels experiences, or at least, perhaps, gives us our one freedom, that which is able to choose how we shall respond to external circumstances within which we find ourselves.
 
Tao,

I do believe in the value of "talk therapy" for, well, everyone really. And I think psychiatry does have its applications but not as a first line of defense. My sense based on talking to spiritual teachers and to various types of therapists about my struggles is that spiritual direction is a very important part of the process for me because of my focus on G!d and my tendency to frame my experiences in the language of religion. Most therapists I might go to see, they shy away from talk about G!d and there really isn't a part of my life that I feel is untouched by the Divine. Based on the reactions I've had in therapy to talking about my relationship with G!d or my spiritual practice I tend to hesitate bringing it up at all and yet that denies such a fundamental part of how I experience the world. I end up talking vaguely and avoiding any G!dtalk, and then when something slips and I say for example, "Everything happens for a reason" before I have a chance to go on to demonstrate the depth and meaningfulness this has for me, and the positive way I then interpret it, I'm questioned as to why I would think that.

It saddens me. I complain a lot about the enlightenment not because I'm anti-rational but because so much of the world denies everything else. A drash just came to me. The binding of Isaac, it's like Abraham is about to kill his inner child. And then G!d stops him. It was important for him to learn that he could restrain and control his inner child, that's a part of growing up, but the last thing he should do is destroy it. I think a lot of the world is sacrificing Isaac instead of binding him.

Dauer

Dauer, thanks for your words

Your sense of religious connection and your depth of knowledge on it is something that, with the best will in the world in trying to understand, remains alien to me. It is analogous to you describing a country you know well but I have never visited. Despite that I have seen on so many of your posts that you are able to draw from it to bring a perspective to a discussion that has made me think down routes I never considered. I was amazed to see on the other thread that you polled very low in your certainty of Gods existence.... below mine in fact!! Given your extensive knowledge and your much evident ability to draw from so many sources to bring a unique perspective to so many discussions, your polling really really surprised me. From that I am beginning to see that certainty is less important to you than the usefulness of the metaphor.
This analogy of describing a foreign country to someone who has never visited it is also a good one for the topic at hand. The language you want to use is not understood by the doctors because of their ignorance, not because it is not a valid language. Call me crazy, but all my favourite people live out there on the edge. They speak of things I struggle to comprehend, reveal ideas that are sometimes confused to me, but sometimes jumps into sheer genius. I find these people all tend to be highly creative, artists, writers or independent in business. They have difficulty conforming to the norms of schedules, work routines etc and so struggle to hold down normal jobs. But they are the most talented. There are exceptions tho. Those that have been hospitalised and given EST or depixel injections. They now walk around like barely functioning zombies. Struggle to hold a conversation and drool like they are...... mad.
One guy I know was just a lazy dope-head. He had no discernible illness that I nor any of his friends ever detected. So that the social security would stop pestering him to get off benefits and find a job he read up on and feigned schizophrenia. In return for his increase in state hand-outs he got fortnightly injections and daily medications that have left him a drooling mess that cannot follow a simple conversation. He is often incontinent. This guy is like a 6 foot tall Robert DeNiro to look at, walking with him almost every woman would turn their heads to check him out. But for his laziness he is more like a baby in nappies than a man and any woman that talks to him walks away after a minute at most. So I have seen what these drugs can do to a healthy individual. It's crazy to me to imagine that these substances can have any long term benefit for a sick person.
I also had the dubious pleasure to get to know a doctor of psychiatry at Edinburgh's Andrew Duncan Clinic, our mental health institution here. I use institution as opposed to hospital as a hospital is expected to heal some of its patients. I rented a flat from his girlfreind who was a nurse at the same hospital. This guy was psychotically jealous and would follow his girlfreind around, spy on her, monitor her phone etc. The point is who are these doctors that have even more power than a Judge to deny people their liberty and compel them to take substances that will render them walking vegetables? They can be crazy themselves.
As has been pointed out earlier there is a dire need of some alternative thinking in regard to the range of human behaviour that society deems normal. I do in large part blame big business, to which our governments ultimately dance the tune of trying to make everybody effectively identical thoughtless drugged up happy workers and consumers. Seems the only alternative is as Francis, i think, suggested and to run to the hills.


TE
 
tao- u should jump in when u like- I do it! throw my daftness into the orthodox camp, watch them all bristle, its great fun...

there is a lot of debate in psychiatry as to the causes of specific mental illnesses... in schizophrenia it is found that, post mortem, there is a lot of neurological differences between the schizophrenic and the normal brain-

there is some hypo- and hypertrophy of the amydgalae, which effects emotionality, yet its also a region of the brain which is also found atrophied in those who as children suffer from a lot of stress- apparently high levels of cortisol effect the amygdalae's development, and also causes what they call dendritic pruning- the fibres from the neurons become spindly, fewer...

...there is sulcal widening, where the sulcii, the gaps between the brain, appear to widen,

... and "the most common abnormality is enlarged ventricles, implying a loss of subcortical brain cells, which has been demonstrated both in postmortem studies (Dwork, 1997) and in PET scans (Nopoulos, Flaum and Andreasen, 1997). This enlargement is often striking enough that discordant twins can be discriminated by comparing the sizes of the ventricles in PET studies (Suddath et al, 1990). Furthermore, the enlargement is usually more marked in the part of the ventricular system that lies within the temporal lobe and particularly on the left side of the brain. (Crow et al, 1989)."

..."The prefrontal cortex (PFC), known to play a role in behaviours such as speech, decision-making and willed action, which are often disrupted in schizophrenia, has also been implicated in the disorder. MRI studies have found a reduction in grey matter in the PFC (Buchanan et al, 1998), and glucose metabolism imaging has shown that patients with schizophrenia have lower metabolic rates in this area (Buchsbaum et al, 1984). It has also been demonstrated that while performing neuropsychological tests of PFC functioning, such as the Wisconsin Card Sort Test, patients with schizophrenia do worse on the tests and fail to show normal activation in the prefrontal region (Fletcher et al, 1998)".

yet- all of these neurological changes which we discover post mortem may in fact be the result of the medication and not implicated in the disorder at all...

there is also a proposed genetic link in schizophrenia, yet again, we do not know if this is a true hereditable condition or it appears that people inherit it because they grow up around schizophrenics or are born into families with schizotypal traits...

and then we have the dopamine hypothesis, which states that in schizophrenia there is a lack of dopamine within the limbic system, or the D2 receptors become over-sensitive, which causes the hallucinations, etc...

..."There are, however, serious problems with dopamine dysfunction as a main cause of schizophrenia. It takes several weeks for antipsychotics to have an effect on symptoms, although they block the dopamine receptors straight away, which suggests that other neurotransmitters, perhaps serotonin or glutamate are also involved in schizophrenia".

... "Also, the dopamine theory predicts that lowering the level of dopamine in the brain to normal would alleviate symptoms, but in reality they have to be lowered to the levels found in Parkinson's disease in order to have any effect. Dopamine alone can, therefore, only play a small role in the aetiology of schizophrenia, and we must look to other causes to explain the disorder more completely".

"Current theories are, therefore, attempting to interlink these diverse aetiologies, and it is likely that a genetically determined neurodevelopmental cause underlies both the observed brain abnormalities and the dysfunctional dopamine systems so characteristic of schizophrenia".

please see the link for references listed above-

GOOD BRAIN - they're mental

so, in truth, we don't really know what causes schizophrenia... there's a few theories, but no real facts... it's too expensive to give everyone who might have a mental illness an MRI or a PET scan, so instead we rely on rating scales and medication...

of course, earl, sometimes ppl need more than a therapeutic community- and sometimes medication seems like the only path to take, yet I feel it should only be used when ppl are in an acute phase, and that once the positive symptoms have abated and ppl are stabilized they should have the medication reduced, tapered to a minimum dose, and hopefully, eventually, be weaned off this, rather than be prescribed it indefinately...

...but look at it the other way... if you told me that you were taking me to a mental health facility, and I didn't want to go, it would take six ppl to drag me there, too... if someone was going to lock you up, deprive you of your civil liberties, stick you in a dangerous, high stress enviroment, patronise and belittle you, and then forcibly strap you down and medicate you to the extent you dribbled like a baby, couldn't walk ten metres without falling over or gave you drugs that meant you had no bladder control, would you happily submit?

...yet we look at our young man, and we say- hey, he's violent and maybe dangerous! he's non-compliant! he won't do as he's told! he must be sick!
and slap the handcuffs on him, when maybe his behaviour is actually quite healthy...

muslimwoman- "Do u believe in G-d because u have a mental illness?"- no! u have Islam-itis! its a different kettle of fish!

dauer- you'll have to explain what tehillim and niggums are....
Well, Francis, the decision to transport that young man for mental evaluation became a necessity when in a floridly psychotic state in broke into gun cases @ our local WalMart and attempted to jam ammo into a gun there in the store while shouting he was going to kill self and others.;) earl
 
I see what you mean. An atheist and a theist may both think the other being “unreasonable”; it’s unreasonable to believe in God when you can present no proof / it’s unreasonable not to believe in God when the proof is all around us.

s.

Exactly! This frustrates me sometimes. I see the "proof" all around and still can't prove it to anyone else.

Open secret?
 
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