Belief and Mental Health

Caimanson said:
I don't know about being happier, looking back at all the churches I've been to, I don't think so (but maybe I've been mostly to the wrong ones:)).

For the sake of argument, take the last one I attended, if 85% said they were very satisfied with life then I'd say its a lie, either a hypocritical lie or a lie in blindness.

I am getting more and more convinced that religious peolple aren't as nice as non religious ones, and I don't mean nice in a superficial level, I mean better human beings. By contrast I also think that a lot of the most exceptional people are spiritual ones, but these tend to be exceptional.
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Maybe the danger of:
Ego + Righteousness = Self-righteousness ?


s.
 
dauer said:
When you think about it, the clergy used to be the therapists. If you're struggling with something you go to your rabbi or minister. You make confession to a priest, do yechidus with your rebbe. What's the perscription? Do 3 hail marys, recite psalms, chew on this koan, do more charity work, go up to that person you wronged and apologize, give back the chicken you stole, focus your study on some particular passages about why it's wrong to slander other people.
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I'd like to think that the clergy can still fulfil this role of "therapist", a spiritual guide to our lives. Of course it depends on the individual circumstances but I believe so-called "talking therapies" have a lot to offer.

s.
 
Tao_Equus said:
The links between 'brain disorders' and religious fervour also exist such as in those with certain types of epilepsy.....

This is a Pandora's box of an issue to be sure.

TE
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The brain is certainly one mysterious place Tao! I suppose any “malfunction” of the brain, chemical or electrical, could cause all many of strange phenomena such as visual or auditory hallucinations and given the brain is considered to be the “seat” of our minds (?!) more profound experiences such as those cited. Interesting article indeed. I’ve had a couple of seizures but my supernatural being was wearing an ambulance technician’s outfit. The questions you ask show why, to me, this is such an interesting area; it’s the confluence of two major concerns of people everywhere; their mind and their understanding of their relationship with the world (sometimes expressed as “a religion”, but not always). I think there could be a whole sub-forum on it (starting with your questions!!):)

s.
 
Hi everyone

I felt awful that I had posted about my difficulty so came on today to delete it but too late, half the world now knows I am a card carrying loon. :eek::D I was really surprised and heartened that nobody was judgemental about it - thank you. I think it will be interesting to see if people now communicate differently now we loonies have outed ourselves. Sorry it's such a long post but what a fabulous thread.

Sorry I don't know how to quote more than one person in a post so will just waffle and you can find the relevant bit for you.

Dauer Thank you for your post, nice to know I am not the only one that struggles not only with this illness but with how my own beliefs actually fit in with the 'norm'. I didn't explain very well about my faith in G-d being constant. Yes when I am manic I pray less but am more thankful to G-d and see the beauty in G-d's creation more. When I am down I pray a great deal more and tend stay in the home reading about my religion. However, throughout these changes in mood my belief that G-d exists does not change.

Please be aware that even years later a mood will suddenly creep up on you, so we are not out of the woods but if we remain aware we can get by very well. Congratulation on taking an alternative path to meds and I hope you stay strong enough to remain that way.

What diet changes have you made? I have been taking Omega3 oil for 18 months and found that a great help. Also my belief is that sunshine helps (hence the decision to live over here).

I agree that Talk Therapy is very beneficial, however I can get just as much benefit from talking to a stranger in the street (or on this forum) as I can from a professional.

Please could you expand or give me a link to the Isaac and binding story. I constantly struggle to control my inner child - and usually lose the fight (and a 42 year old woman playing hopscotch looks a bit daft). :D:p Seriously though, my husband is 17 years my junior but is generally more 'mature' than I am - however I think that is why our marriage works with such an age gap.

TE. Please let me know what your friend says about his belief or lack of belief in G-d. I too was a workaholic, over achiever (took my A levels at 13 yrs, etc) and have met many people who are, that also suffer from this disorder - I have no proof but there must be a link just from the number of us there are. Could you please also ask him about his faith in his own ability - sounds wierd I know but people used to pay me bizarre amounts of money for consultation work and yet I always felt as though I was "playing post offices" and would be discovered as an idiot any moment. I would like to know if this is a common feeling with such people.

Re the issue of quacks & meds. To be honest I would be dead without the meds and for years they helped me to get on with my life but I also believe there is a point in life when many of us have to say no to them and find an alternative path. They have a place and a use but it is true nobody can understand how we feel, what we actually go through unless they suffer the same illness, so trying to explain it to a doctor is like trying to explain rocket science to an ice cream salesman. The other difficulty is that the meds do work - this causes a serious problem, because when the meds work you feel 'cured' so stop taking the meds, then the meds wear off and you are back to square one and no matter how many times you follow this pattern you always do the same thing.

Francis. Islam-itis :eek: oh no, not more meds?????

Wil. Great point about G-d healing, thank you for reminding me. I do not think G-d has cured me but He has given me a way to live a normal life whilst still having my illness.

Re savants - what a fascinating subject. Just look at the number of people in history classed as a 'genius' that have suffered from mental illness to one degree or another. Mathematicians that talk to imaginary people, artists that mutilate themselves, philosophers that walk around naked, etc, etc and where would the world and science be without these 'nutters' that think outside the box?

Paladin. Excellent point and I agree. That was my turning point, when I stopped looking outside myself for excuses/reasons/cures and realised that the problem is part of me and I had to find a way to accept this and get on with my life. Everyone could see my mood swings long before I could, so I started there and began recording my feelings each day, until I learnt to recognise the signs of a mood change. This does not mean my mood swings have ceased but once you become aware of them you become able to live with them.


Are there any websites on teach yourself meditation? I feel this might help me but can't get many non-religious books here.

Thank you so much everyone for allowing me to discuss this openly, not sure I feel comfortable with it but really appreciate the opportunity to explore this.

Salaam
 
dauer said:
A link of some relevance:
The Society for Laingian Studies
R.D. Laing was a psychologist who studied schyzophrenia and shamanism. One of his suggestions is that conditioning children to fit into the societal norm is reinforcing a type of delusion in itself and that by rejecting the conditioning the schyzophrenic may have greater access to truths that we suppress.
Edit: Wanted to add this link to a specific article by him on Transcendental Experience in Relation to Religion and Psychosis: SLS · Bibliography · Transcendental Experience in Relation to Religion and Psychosis
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Not heard of Laing so also read about him on wiki. My first impression is that a lot of what he says chimes with my own views.

I think this fundamental point underlies a lot of the problems:

"But as Laing was, moreover, a critic of psychiatric diagnosis, he argued that diagnosis of a mental disorder contradicted accepted medical procedure: diagnosis was made on the basis of behavior or conduct, and examination and ancillary tests that traditionally precede diagnosis of viable pathologies like broken bones or pneumonia occurred after (if at all) the diagnosis of mental disorder. Hence, psychiatry was founded on a false epistemology: illness diagnosed by conduct but treated biologically.
The fact that medical doctors had annexed mental disorders did not mean they were practicing medicine; hence, the popular term "medical model of mental illness" is oxymoronic, since, according to Laing, diagnosis of mental illness did not follow the traditional medical model. The notion that biological psychiatry is a real science or a genuine branch of medicine has been challenged by other critics as well."


Thanks for this Dauer, I'll read more...

s.
 
Again, interesting personal stories Dauer & Muslimwoman. Can't say I've ever encountered anyone with any kind of significant bipolar disorder who could function consistently well for very long without meds, whether they turn to spiritual lifestyles or not. Actually, in transpersonal psychology-the branch of psych long devoted to studying and/or furthering spiritual experiences-the clinical applications of that perspective have typically, (depending on the disorder), not assumed an either-or attitude toward the issue of meds vs. psychospiritual therapies. Rather, like that Lukoff piece spoke of how in dealing with manic bipolar states with spiritual overtones, the approach might be both meds & spiritual stuff. I know of no actual studies that attempt to evaluate the outcome of such choices, but it's certainly interesting and heartening to hear that you 2 have faired reasonably well with the "non-med" choice-just that it doesn't work for everyone. Needless to say, I've long had an interest in the intersection of psychology and spirituality myself, (though 1 of the reasons popped into this thread was more to give another perspective on the apparent "anti-pyschiatry/anti-med" posts I saw here). One could certainly say in a way there is a spiritual aspect or experience level potentially available for every human experience theoretically. But that also is not to say that every human behavioral difficulty can be alleviated solely at the level of spirit. take care, earl
 
ardenz said:
Thanks for starting this thread Snoopy.

There are some interesting genetic studies being done, about possible links between schizophrenia and alcoholism. Recently I was asked while donating blood if I would take part in such a study (...as the control group - ??!!)

I can understand religious belief working as a grounding mechanism for people who are chaotic.. but then the same behavioural instincts, whether its a chemical imbalance or other, maybe trigger delusions.

On another mental health note: Buddhist mindfullness meditation, as an adjunct to Cognitive Behavioural Therapy (CBT) has been proven to be very effective for depression and much more. CBT and meditation being preferable to handing out pills.

"mindfullness meditation is a technique in which a person becomes intentionally aware of his or her thoughts and actions in the present moment, non-judgmentally" -wikipedia

"CBT is based on the idea that how we think (cognition), how we feel (emotion), and how we act (behaviour) all interact together. Specifically, our thoughts influence our feelings and our behavior. Therefore, negative and unrealistic thoughts can cause us distress and result in problems."- wikipedia

So yes, I think our beliefs affect how we think, how we feel and act.
........
now where is that little blue pill
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Yes, meditation indeedy. Cognition: Right thought. Emotion: Right mindfulness. Behaviour: Right action.

He got there 2500 years ago!

s.
 
earl said:
I entered into college during the hey day of RD Laing and studied his thought. It seems that he and his followers have almost glamorized such severe mental illnesses as schizophrenia as the harbinger of mysticism and spiritual break-through. In 25 years+ work in mental health can't say I've ever known that to be the case. Am on-call and spent 2 hours in our local ER last night attending to some poor 18 y.o. in 4-point restraints with 6 people including police officers holding him down for over 2 hours in a severely combative, psychotic state while the ER doctor tried to sew up his face after he had thrust his head through the police car window in which he was being transported.

There have been good attempts made to carefully distinguish between symptoms of spiritual difficulties and actual mental illness in tranpersonal psychology with David Lukoff being the lead exponent. Here's his overview:

From Spiritual Emergency to Spiritual Problem: The Transpersonal Roots of the New DSM-IV Category

There is a big difference. :) earl
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Maybe there could be a middle path between the current typical modus operandi of the psychiatric profession and the "glamourised" take on mental health. Some people are clearly in poor mental health and need assistance, but I'm not sure the answer has to be so pharmaceutically based, or even the answer at all in some cases?

Another link for favourites Earl, thanks.

s.
 
francis,

tehillim is the name for the book of psalms in Hebrew. A nigun is generally a wordless melody which is understood to be like the soul compared to the body. Some nigunim are very upbeat and ecstatic. Others are slow and meditative and sometimes filled with deep longing.

_______

wil,

I think it's kind of like the alcoholics who go through the 12 step programs. Part of that is developing faith in something greater than oneself. Why don't we lock up the alcoholics instead and medicate them?

I also don't think spiritual practice is going to be enough for everyone. And let's face it. it's a lot harder to develop a strong routine and and a sustained structured spiritual practice than it is to take a few pills each day. Given the option I don't think most people would put in the effort anyway. Despite how helpful it might be and inquiries some of my therapists about it, I've never been introduced to cognitive behavioral therapy. It's a practice that takes work. Most folks want an easy fix.

___________


Ah thanks Tao. Was reading your post intently and now I've got Iron Maiden stuck in my head. :D

What you say about long-term use of medication, I think that's especially true of bipolar disorder. Even if someone finds a medication that works, it's likely they'll eventually need a higher dose or different medication. And for those on anti-psychotics there's the lingering risk of tardive diskenesia.

I think the reason that some people on the edges seem to be more creative or to possess special talents or aptitudes is precisely because they're on the edge of things. If they thought like everyone else they'd be like everyone else. But the only way they can contribute anything meaningful to society is if they find a place they can fit in despite their differences. Difficulties arise when there's a clash between the individual and the basic values and structures of society. It's the same reason those who do not assimilate into a new society are often so reviled. That much harder for a society of one.

I would say that more than a self-serving metaphor, to put it into computer terms, I create a partition. There are times, most of the time, when I'm functioning based on my subjective experiences of reality. There is nothing about the idea of a personal G!d in those moments that seems contradictory or untrue to me, at least on the subjective level. Beyond metaphor it's lived experience. When I read about the hasidic idea that not even a leaf turns unless G!d wills it or that the world is constantly being created I resonate deeply with that. It affirms the way I relate to the world. When I engage intellectually with it there's dissonance and I affirm that dissonance too, its validity and meaningfulness. It seems ridiculous to me to suggest that there is a personal G!d who is intimately involved in the world. There's no objective evidence for it. Proofs for G!d are merely justifications parading as philosophy. At the level of which I engage in intellect there is no way I could possibly accept an idea of G!d worth accepting. And I don't want to as to me the whole experience of G!d is subjective. But both the sense of disbelief in G!d and an experience of a relationship with the Divine are valid experiences. If I allow one to trump the other I'm denying myself. Instead I affirm both.

___________

Snoopy, I absolutely believe that they still can and it heartens me to see spiritual direction being fostered in a number of religious traditions. I think that's some of the thing of value to be found in the guru-disciple or rebbe-hasid relationship which to me is best understood as a process instead of defined roles, something that goes on as guru-ing or rebbe-ing with the guru becoming George again when the session stops. There's a fantastic book Zalman Schachter-Shalomi wrote built from his thesis called Spiritual Intimacy: A Study of Counseling in Hasidism. It examines primarily the pre-war expressions of hasidism and the relationship between hasid and rebbe, the ways in which the rebbe served as a type of proto-therapist albeit with different goals and methods.

Dauer
 
Thanks for the links Snoopy, will let you know how I get on and if it helps.
 
Look can everyone just stop posting till I've read it all

I CAN'T KEEP UP!!!

thank you.
 
mw,

What diet changes have you made? I have been taking Omega3 oil for 18 months and found that a great help. Also my belief is that sunshine helps (hence the decision to live over here).
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I had been taking omega-three once. There's a supplement called omegabrite that's very concentrated. For me it didn't seem to help too much although I do try to get some flax in my diet anyway. I do think sunshine helps and I read something recently that it's not only full-spectrum light but also darkness that can be very healing. Ther article's somewhere on this site but I can't find it: Bipolar Disorder, Manic Depression which is a wonderful resource if you sometimes feel a bit alone in your journey.

My dietary changes have been embracing veganism and eating fewer processed foods. I took a food sensitivity test once (different from allergies) which showed I'm particularly sensitive to dairy among other things. Dairy actually contains opiate-like substances and when certain proteins are broken down it forms more. It's important for a child who's nursing I think to get that but as we grow older there isn't really such a need to put that type of stuff into our bodies. A lot of us have some degree of addiction to dairy and don't even realize it. I used to love cheese (which has higher concentrations of the opiates) and still get cravings sometimes. Since the changes in my diet I feel a lot healthier and happier. I'm thinking more clearly. I'm more regular (I know I know tmi.) My girlfriend has stated that after eating a vegan pizza she doesn't feel heavy and groggy like she does after eating a regular pizza and I can attest to that. Not sure if there are any psychological benefits to avoiding meat (besides the good feelings for helping suffering creatures) but the elimination of dairy has definitely effected me for the better.

Mw,

on beliefnet there's some info on Muslim meditation:

Beliefnet.com

If you have itunes there are a number of free meditation podcasts.

There's also this site: Meditation Station Presented By The Meditation Society Of America which has a lot of helpful info.

earl,

I wouldn't suggest that going off medication might be successful for everyone and when in dialogue with people going through a hard time with bipolar disorder I try to avoid sharing my own experiences. It's not that I don't think it could work. It might help them. Most people are just unwilling to put in that type of work. It requires a lot of lifestyle changes.

Another area that's proving to be very effective (with more research needed) is eeg neurofeedback which has helped some folks get off medication entirely with no need for further visits and others to greatly reduce their dependency on medication. Given its confirmed value in the treatment of both seizure disorders and depression I imagine that further studies will only confirm what practitioners have already found to be true.

Dauer
 
Hi all..its my turn.

Dauer, Your dietery and meditation suggestions I can concur with. I believe you started a thread a while ago around this topic of mental health.

As this is getting confessional....... - I have had my share of issues - bipolar . I think it was a very good thing to face it and treat it like a real problem, it is the awarness of what it is that keeps me able to contain and control it.

There is a history in my extended family of: "the overly religious", alcoholics, teatotalers, two diagnosed schizophrenics (one who commited suicide), bipolars of various degrees, depression.... Now as to whether some of this is nurture or nature, I just don't know. (There are also artists - creative types, engineers, scientists)

I am not a fan of the medical system in its propencity to hand out pills, but sometimes it is a necessary stop gap, not substituting for good therapy. I was lucky to have an excellent GP and a progressive psychiatrist working on a Cognitve therapy masters degree offer me free therapy, and suggested mindfulness meditation (hope it doesn't sound like prosylthising). I had learned meditation at the Western Buddhist order years before and took it up more regularly. I have read Jon Kabat Zinn: "Full Catastrophe living", mentioned above by Snoopy.

I still have ups and downs - I have lapsed with meditation, I have to watch self-medication (dwink), diet, coffee, stress, etc. I have had some amazing clarity from meditation and quite mystical experiences, but I am wary of looking for highs and try to keep grounded and in the world and connected to others.

thank you all for your stories

Ardenz
 
Why won't this thing let me delete one of my posts? It has gone a bit too personal for comfort. Could a Mod please delete my post #50 please.
 
Dauer

Thanks so much for the info and links on meditation. It is something I have considered for years but never quite managed to get around to. Will give it a bash now.

As for the omega3, I am a great believer in 'body heal thyself' - otherwise known as the placebo effect, I believe. If I believe it is working does it then work? If I believe a medication doesn't work, does it therefore cease to function?
 
Francis, great to hear you were able to get away from the medical approach - I hope you had plenty of synchronicty and interesting people who helped you on your way. :) Saw a teenage friend destroyed by the mental care system here - the approach seemed to be little better than "sedate until further notice", and afterward studied enough of clinical psychology to see Schizophrenia unfortunately used as a blanket term. Never read Lang directly, but read of his work. I guess it's a sad indication of medical science that the spiritual experience is regarded as abnormal.

Dauer and Muslimwomen - really impressed to read your stories. I'd never even considered the angle of using the spiritual experience in that way, so thanks for sharing. :)
 
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