Keys to the Kingdom

throw up your window, stick out your head and yell, "I'm sick and tired of this and I'm not going to take it anymore"

My neighbours were not amused :D Luckily they don't speak English and as a foreigner they already think I am nuts.

I am seriously thinking of starting a new religion, it goes like this:

Name: Love G-d
Scripture: Treat every creature with dignity and respect.

That is it, my whole religion. Can you imagine if we all actually did this, we could not go to war because it would violate this commandment, we could not speak hatred because it would violate this commandment, we could not covet because.......hang about, is this sounding familiar?

Then how would we all be judged when the time comes?
 
Does Snoopy exist?

Does farhan exist?

One thing is clear. I exist!!!!! I just don't have a name. Who am I!!!!!???? I'm nameless. If xxxxxx is my name, then does xxxxxx exist?

I said earlier that I exist, so if xxxxxx is my name, surely xxxxxx exists!!!!!
That is, unless xxxxxx is not my name.

Saltmeister isn't really my name. It's just an online identity. Saltmeister is the identity of a person that exists but Saltmeister doesn't really exist as a real person except as the identity of a real person.

So if Y is an online identity of a real person. Can Y be said to exist?:eek:

What if someone steals my password? Does Y now have multiple personality disorder?

Regards,

Five of Thirteen

P. S. I assure you no-one has stolen my password and I am just one person, not 13.:):D
 
I am seriously thinking of starting a new religion, it goes like this:

Name: Love G-d
Scripture: Treat every creature with dignity and respect.

That is it, my whole religion. Can you imagine if we all actually did this, we could not go to war because it would violate this commandment, we could not speak hatred because it would violate this commandment, we could not covet because.......hang about, is this sounding familiar?
Amen sister, sure does...I'll bet it is buried in most every religion...are these words of Jesus in the Koran?

"Jesus said…Thou shalt love the Lord they God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." Matt.22:37-40.
 
I am seriously thinking of starting a new religion, it goes like this:

Name: Love G-d
Scripture: Treat every creature with dignity and respect.

That is it, my whole religion. Can you imagine if we all actually did this, we could not go to war because it would violate this commandment, we could not speak hatred because it would violate this commandment, we could not covet because.......hang about, is this sounding familiar?

Then how would we all be judged when the time comes?

Well, I believe sometimes to be truly Christian and Muslim one has to go against everything he/she has been taught to be truly Christian or Muslim. Become Public Enemy Number One with regards to our respective faiths -- that the best way to be Christian or Muslim is to try not to be one.

By embracing this "Love God" religion we may cease to be Christian and Muslim in the eyes of the other adherents of our respective faiths, but deep inside we are still adherents to the original.:)

I don't believe that by doing so we lose our Christian or Muslim identity, we would still be distinctly Christian or Muslim but not in the explicit, political, public sense -- more in the private, personal, implicit sense.:D

We'd be judged as being humble and keeping our personal beliefs to ourselves and not lording it over others.

We'd be the True Patriots, doing it for Christianity/Islam respectively. Upholding but not undermining. Accused and condemned for treason and sedition, but loyals in secret. Rebels with a cause.

Especially true if our "government" does controversial things (ie. our respective religious establishments -- using metaphors/analogies here -- don't take it all literally). The powers that be are not God's servant. They are just a structural framework. Organisations that have gone foul.

The Tabernacle was not the real Temple of God, just a fallible, man-made copy of it. The real Temple was in heaven (Hebrews 9).

This is of course, a reference to the Tabernacle built by the Israelites, but it would still apply to Christians today, as we must not mistake the organisations (or individuals) that facilitate the Christian liturgical/spiritual experience for the real Church!!! These organisations, establishments or denominations are just Tabernacles that we have built. It was not just about the Tabernacle built by the Israelites. So the same principle applies -- it is not the real thing. Same for the equivalent in Islam.

Just as Marxism was about class struggles and the elimination of classes, so Christianity is the elimination of Tabernacles. The significance of this is that as Christians, we have accidentally built more Tabernacles rather than trying to find the real Temple. We've been distracted!!! The early apostles warned us against false Temples. We've constructed counterfeit cornerstones!!! We're trying to get rid of these Tabernacles but somehow they just come up out of nowhere. The hope is that one day we will live in the Real Temple, not just a Tabernacle that we have built.

That's the Ideal in Christianity as I see it, and there must surely be an equivalent in Islam. I believe all this just is really just a set of metaphors just to keep us aligned to the real goal, and not be led astray. Christianity and Islam may indeed be different flavours of God's religion designed to keep us tuned into the right wavelength.
 
Amen sister, sure does...I'll bet it is buried in most every religion...are these words of Jesus in the Koran?

"Jesus said…Thou shalt love the Lord they God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." Matt.22:37-40.

The same teaching is in the Quran. As for Jesus (pbuh), he is quoted a number of times in the Quran - this is one:

And surely Allah is my Lord and your Lord, therefore serve Him; this is the right path. 19:36
 
that the best way to be Christian or Muslim is to try not to be one.

I would never try not to be a Muslim, however I will never try to be the Muslim I am told to be (ie going against the true teaching of the Quran and my moral judgement). I see where you are coming from, we must be the Christian and Muslim we know G-d wants and tells us to be, not the one our 'leaders' are demanding we should be.

By embracing this "Love God" religion we may cease to be Christian and Muslim in the eyes of the other adherents of our respective faiths, but deep inside we are still adherents to the original.:)

Or be better Christian and Muslim? That is certainly my intention and I believe the true path to G-d. At the end of days it is G-d that will judge us, not our fellow man.

We'd be judged as being humble and keeping our personal beliefs to ourselves and not lording it over others.

As servants of G-d is humble not the first requirement?

We'd be the True Patriots, doing it for Christianity/Islam respectively. Upholding but not undermining. Accused and condemned for treason and sedition, but loyals in secret. Rebels with a cause.

I am accused of sedition on a daily basis so nothing new there for me. :D How dare I refuse to hate and judge people and condemn them for their beliefs. ;)

Christianity and Islam may indeed be different flavours of God's religion designed to keep us tuned into the right wavelength.

I wish people would stop twiddling the bloody knobs.

Salaam
 
Something that puzzles me is that Arabic simply does not translate well into other languages and indeed some words simply do not translate at all. Allah knows everything, so He knows this and yet the Quran was revealed in Arabic. Have you heard or read anything which discusses this?

Ofcourse I have read/heard this in diffeent books/lectures. But......have you read something that says otherwise. The word Islam can be translated into many different meanings. But if you sum up all the meanings, it becomes something like "the peace (of mind & obviously body too) that is attained when one submits his will, with sincerity & obedience, to the will of God .

IMO we were all made to live in heaven, & not on this planet or in this body. It was one act of disobedience, one act that was un-islamic, that proved that we need to tame the inherent uncertainity (freewill) that our creater gave us. And we are on this planet to learn only that. It was not a sin because every body knew it is gonna happen (2:30). The inherent uncertainity is actually a part of being the best of creations (We humans give this power to the best of our machines, & call it artificial intelligence) . The whole point of being here is to learn to obey, & to go back to our orignal motherland (2:38). This time, we will know by experience that following the creater is the best way.

Also, please can you tell me your opinion of when a person is considered to "have received the message of Islam"? For me this was at my first reading of the Quran and even before I had finished I decided to convert. For example, would you consider the nonMuslims on this site to have received the message?

Recieve the message is a very relative term, Nobody other than the prophets can ever be sure that he has delivered the message. And as Muslims we arnt suppose to give any verdict regarding anybody's Eman, or his after life.There is a hadith regarding this :

Usama Ibn Zaid: was sent on an expedition by the Messenger Muhammad (saw). He said: ‘One of the Mushrikeen said laa ilaaha illalah and I killed him but I felt bad and I told the Messenger Muhammad’ The Messenger Muhammad (saw) said: ‘Did you kill him after he said laa ilaaha illalah?’ Usamah said 'Yes, but he only said it because he feared from my weapon.' Muhammad s.a.w. said ‘Did you check his heart? What will you do if he comes to you on the day of judgement with his Kalima’

As a muslim its our duty to invite people to our way, show them its beauty, remove any misconceptions, & thats it . Judging somebody's afterlife is not our business. God has given every body brain & heart to think. And he has given everybody the freedom to choose. As he himself said, if he wanted, everybody would have been a muslim . So, let him do his business.

If I remember correctly, this is related to Ghazali. somebody asked him about Maronite Christians . He said that they live inside muslim lands, Islamic teachings are easily available to them, yet they dont accept, so will thet go to hell. Ghazali replied that although they live in Islamic lands, but from the very first day, they are told that Islam is an evil religion. When they are adults, they are not even willing to think about Islam. But its not their fault, God is definitely going to be lenient to them, as its he who has put them there, in a situation where they have lost their willingness to think.

I think in the current times, this can be said about most of the western people . They are contiouously being hypnotised by images on their TV. They arnt even given the freedom to think beyond "we are under threat", "they hate us" & "Islam is some barbaric idology " .This fuss creates so much emotional disturbance that their minds arnt able to think beyond the fear & apprehension that gets associated with Islam. The blame lies more on us Muslims , than them . We muslims arnt even trained to answer simple questions about Islam. How can we assume that they have received the message.

Here is my problem. Surely, if a Christian never reads the Quran they cannot be classed as having received the message of Islam (as the Quran is the message os Islam)? Therefore that person would surely be judged by the message of their own Prophet (pbut)?

Ofcourse. But the problem goes deeper. What if that person got the message but was told that its not to be followed? And how do you define "their own Prophet" in current times . There are lots of ifs & buts in this. And only God can do perfect justice.


Does Snoopy exist?

Does farhan exist?

He thinks he does. But what if he is only programmed to think like that . Programmed to think that he can think. Programmed to think that he thinks he exists. Afterall, reality is just a persistant illusion. Anyways, this is going somewhere else. The whole reason of this analogy, was to make an atheist (Mr. Dawkins) think about his reason to exist . We humans ususlly delete a software when it gets corrupted. We throwout any machine if it doesnot work. To believe that a person will not believe in God & still go to heaven doesent make any sense.

What is Islam NOT strict on

Lots of different things. Their is a hadith that says: "God wont forgive two things , Shirk (associating partners with God), & the rights of people. Rights of people can be forgiven if that person forgives him . So we are left only with one thing. Shirk.

Amen sister, sure does...I'll bet it is buried in most every religion...are these words of Jesus in the Koran?
"Jesus said…Thou shalt love the Lord they God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." Matt.22:37-40.


The same message with different words
How important is it to be good to my neighbor?
 
Thank you Farhan

A good post and has laid some of my fears to rest. I have been troubled when I am told that other people are damned and only Muslims (in the modern term) can be allowed into heaven, as I have always believed that only Allah can judge our hearts, minds and actions and only He can decide who enters heaven. It is comforting to know I am not the only Muslim that believes this. Thank you.

Salaam
MW
 
we must be the Christian and Muslim we know G-d wants and tells us to be, not the one our 'leaders' are demanding we should be.
very wise words. however, not only is it leaders, but it would be also culture, society, and the very words of a book one might think as holy, when it even goes against the nature of god or even fails to put into action his love or gets too caught up in itself it has blinders to the rest. that which is of god does not come back empty.
 
muslimwoman, farhan, thank u both... I have taken ur posts to mean...

"those who believe in God go to heaven" if that is wrong then pls contradict me...

my opinion is...

it is not for us to decide, is it? yes, we can write lists, but ultimately, the choice is God's...

I would like to add though.... we can only submit to the will of God if God himself tells us... otherwise, we submit to the will of another...
 
muslimwoman, farhan, thank u both... I have taken ur posts to mean...

"those who believe in God go to heaven" if that is wrong then pls contradict me...

I think our conclusion is that G-d will decide, He alone knows who truly believes in their hearts and who is really a good person (not just outwardly to look pious). My personal belief is that G-d would not reject anyone simply because they have a nametag. Muslim simply means a person that has submitted to G-d, it is true that has become kown as a given religion in modern times but did G-d change this or did mankind?

my opinion is...

it is not for us to decide, is it? yes, we can write lists, but ultimately, the choice is God's...

I agree with you. It would be very arrogant and stupid if I were to say that all Christians believe Jesus (pbuh) is a seperate G-d to Allah. And even if they did who am I to say they are wrong, only G-d Himself can decide.

I would like to add though.... we can only submit to the will of God if God himself tells us... otherwise, we submit to the will of another...

I think this depends what you mean Francis. If you mean it would require the angel Gabrielle appearing to tell us individually of G-d's existence then I can't agree. If you mean that we have an inner awakening, then yes I agree and that is not something I believe we can try to make others believe, it is a personal awakening and a path of our own to walk.

Salaam
 
The world Islam means "submitting one's will to God". And all prophets before Muhammad (pbuh) brought this same message to humanity . So technically we are all born muslims . And every body who followed the prophet of his time was a muslim .Now there is a little difference between Deen & Sharia. Deen always remains the same . Sharia (law) might change a little bit from prophet to prophet . Its not that God changes his mind, but different people have different circumstances in which they live, and a law that was good for one nation living in a particular place & time , might not be equally good for another nation living in another time frame or on another continent .

But after the final messenger, this final law is for everybody.


Of course, there is no record of anybody before Muhammad bringing the "same message" that Muhammad did. Muslims have to play this game of pretending that there *used to be* versions of the Torah and Gospels etc. that agreed with the Qur'an, despite the absence of any trace of such things...
What I believe about the Qur'an is that it was adequate for a particular place and time. It has nothing to say to non-Arabs, and it is not very good even for Arabs in the modern period.
 
The world Islam means "submitting one's will to God". And all prophets before Muhammad (pbuh) brought this same message to humanity .
personally i dont think so. picture you are in a desert and its super freaking hot and you are beyond thirsty and about to pass out. so you see a spring of water, and from that spring you quench your thirst and rehydrate yourself, cool your body down, wash yourself, rejuvenate yourself from being buzzard food. i believe christ taught that love for god is the spring, and all that flows from it brings about works, submitting your will, faith, obedience, fear, and worship. now if submission is the spring, then love for god is secondary. and what a powerful weapon submission can be in the hands of men who want to control others and sad for those who allow it.
 
What I believe about the Qur'an is that it was adequate for a particular place and time. It has nothing to say to non-Arabs, and it is not very good even for Arabs in the modern period.

You are welcome to your opinion but I am a non-Arab and the Quran has much to say to me, even in this modern time.

Salaam
 
What was your entry point Sally? I've tried to read the Quran, it's perennially on my reading list, but I just glaze over after a couple of chapters. I'm sure the Bible would have the same effect on me if it wasn't such a huge part of my early programming and later self-deprogramming. I have a huge interest in understanding the Muslim world, but I just can't bring myself to read their scripture. How stupid is that?

Chris
 
What was your entry point Sally? I've tried to read the Quran, it's perennially on my reading list, but I just glaze over after a couple of chapters. I'm sure the Bible would have the same effect on me if it wasn't such a huge part of my early programming and later self-deprogramming. I have a huge interest in understanding the Muslim world, but I just can't bring myself to read their scripture. How stupid is that?

Chris

Quite frankly Chris it would have had the same effect on me had I tried to just open it and start reading, although it would have been a good sedative.

What I did was take a couple of 'issues' I had with my western media 'knowledge' of Islam and research them in the Quran. My first few were womens rights issues, the very first being polygamy, which outraged me (the absolute affront of it to women). However once I actually read the verse that talks about polygamy I had to take a step back, the book was actually talking about providing for women and orphans, not mens sexual desires. Okay said my mind, but what about ....... and so it went. At each issue I was faced with a different understanding than the one I had been led to believe. So to be honest I saw it as a research project, not learning a faith. It was almost in spite of Islam that I become a Muslim (if you see what I mean), I wanted to prove to myself how awful this religion was. The next step was a little harder, because I then had to open out to other people's interpretations and boy what a minefield but we are told we can accept or reject a scholars opinion as long as it is not outside of the Quran. So in reality, by the time I had completed my first round of research I had in fact read the whole of the Quran and saw the true faith that was being taught, not the manmade greed and political struggle that has become known as Islam.

So that is what I would suggest if you really want to learn about Muslim life, take an issue that offends you and research it in the Quran (easier if you do it online or you need a Quran like one of mine, where if I am looking up war I just turn to the back and it lists every verse that mentions or pertains to war - definately worth the extra money). Once you see that what the western media tells us and what the Quran say are 2 different things, the research becomes more interesting.

Sally
 
Why is it that you were "wanting to prove to yourself how awful the religion was"?

Because I believed the hype, the media told me Islam was about oppression, hatred, killing and I believed them, as appeared to be borne out by so called Islamic terrorist activity.

I then went to the Middle East and heard music by Sami Yusuf, this made me curious and I began asking questions of Muslims. I was told that most of the stories are misconceptions and so I set out to prove to Muslims that their book said "x, y & z" as quoted by the media. How very silly and arrogant of me. :eek: Also made me look and feel very silly when I realised how much my opinion had been swayed by the media, without ever having the intelligence to research the subject.
 
A discussion of the requirements for entering Heaven and status there in...

All Abrahamic and all denominations/sects/divisions of each and every religion therin are encouraged to participate.

Hey Wil,

What do you consider the Kingdom of God to be? I agree with Thich Nhat Hanh that the Kingdom of God is as a mustard seed planted in the soil of consciousness. The Kingdom of God is our consciousness. You will have to have the Holy Spirit to enter, and that is the only requirement.

Revelation 22:17
And the Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!"

Once you have the Spirit, you can enter in freely.
 
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