Keys to the Kingdom

[bob x]

Maybe we need to back up a littel, I have no idea who you are or where you are coming from. Your sidebar says you are from Egypt, so I took it for granted you were an Arabic-speaker; now you say you "went" to the Middle East (from where?) although you were filled with prejudice against it (why did you go, then?) Your icon (whether a picture of you, or not, makes no difference) depicts you in the full-masking veil (concerning my own prejudices, you should know that I think only gunmen and thieves have any reason to mask their faces) which makes you look like a thorough-going rejecter of the modern world, yet you deny that also, or perhaps I am misunderstanding again.

 

[Muslimwoman]

Okay Bob, back to the beginning. I was born and largely raised in Germany but am British by nationality. I was Christian for most of my life. I have travelled widely, living with numerous cultures. I have always been fascinated by ancient Egypt, so have travelled there numerous times. During my last trip I decided to stay and live in Egypt, I converted to Islam and then married an Arabic Muslim. Me in a nutshell

I do not wear a face veil, as I do not believe my religion instructs me to do so but I do cover my hair, I wear hijab. The picture was an experiment (it's in a thread somewhere), I shall get round to changing it soon. As for covering the face, some Muslim women do this as a form of modesty, not to hide their identity.

 

[bob x]

"As for covering the face, some Muslim women do this as a form of modesty, not to hide their identity."
Yes, yes, I know the motive is in terms of the very repressive attitudes about sexuality, but I do not find that any more respectable: such a severe rejection of the way we are created amounts to a hatred of the creator, in my view.

 

[wil]

"As for covering the face, some Muslim women do this as a form of modesty, not to hide their identity."
Yes, yes, I know the motive is in terms of the very repressive attitudes about sexuality, but I do not find that any more respectable: such a severe rejection of the way we are created amounts to a hatred of the creator, in my view.

WOW!!

This?? This is a Baha'i?? A member of a religion who purports to be the culmination of various religions and honoring nine different religions?? I am thoroughly confused, talk about looking behind the veil...whee...

Of course I have my prejudices...when I read of a religion that believes that G!d says men can't have long hair...that stops me from looking more into Baha'i other then for knowledge sake...but your responses truly make me wonder...

 

[bob x]

What in the world gave you the idea that I am Baha'i????

 

[wil]

What in the world gave you the idea that I am Baha'i????

my bad...I some how mistaken....and mistaken your seven pointed star for a nine pointed one...

No excuses on this end my apologies for linking you with the wrong religion and for linking Baha'i to you!

I suppose I should have sought out the post were MW very eloquently described her reasons for covering up....but I can't find it....aarrghhh

 

[Muslimwoman]

Yes, yes, I know the motive is in terms of the very repressive attitudes about sexuality, but I do not find that any more respectable: such a severe rejection of the way we are created amounts to a hatred of the creator, in my view.

What? So the only way to honour G-d is to show ourselves off?

Very repressive attitudes to sexuality? Please name me any other religion or non religious group that states a man should not leave his wifes bed before she is satisfied? I have yet to hear of one. There are Islamic books devoted to sexuality. Just because we believe in fidelity and modesty does not make us repressed, it just means we don't run around letting it all hang out, handing it around and talking about it over morning coffee. If that is what people choose to do and call it freedom, then fine good luck to them but I choose not to live this way.

Hatred of the Creator Just because we choose to honour G-d by being modest does not amount to hatred of Him. I appreciate the looks that G-d gave me, I may not be a movie star but I am no 2 headed dragon. I honour G-d by allowing only my husband to see my beauty, by keeping my marriage vows strong by not showing myself off to other men, as he does not show himself off to other women. My husband also has a dress and behaviour code, which he follows in order to please G-d, not me or you or anyone, just G-d.

Don't you find it a little chilly sometimes, running around naked? I assume you do not wear clothes or that would be repressive and show contempt to G-d by covering up His creation?

I am sorry that you hold the attitude that all people should be free to choose, as long as they choose the same attitude as you.

Please could you tell me why you think showing you my cleavage or the shape of my legs would in any way honour G-d or be respectful to my husband? I would also be very interested to hear why my choice of clothing seems to offend you so much?

 

[Muslimwoman]

I suppose I should have sought out the post were MW very eloquently described her reasons for covering up....but I can't find it....aarrghhh

Perhaps it is in Comparative religion, on my thread Why do you think I am oppressed? Sorry don't know how to post a link.

 

[arthra]

WOW!!

This?? This is a Baha'i?? A member of a religion who purports to be the culmination of various religions and honoring nine different religions?? I am thoroughly confused, talk about looking behind the veil...whee...

Of course I have my prejudices...when I read of a religion that believes that G!d says men can't have long hair...that stops me from looking more into Baha'i other then for knowledge sake...but your responses truly make me wonder...

Just a note Wil.. I know some Baha'is that have long hair below their ears... It's not an ordinance Wil that's enforced at this time...so I just didn't want people to think Baha'is can't have long hair or that we're going around clipping hair for that reason... Check out photos of Abdul-Baha our Exemplar and you'll see long hair...or photos of Mirza Abul Fadl and you'll see hair down past his shoulders...! The ordinance about hair length will have to be clarified in the future but is not enforced in any event...but neatness and cleanliness are considered important.

- Art

 

[bob x]

"What? So the only way to honour G-d is to show ourselves off? "
How about just being normal? I find it astonishing that you cannot conceive of any intermediate possibility between being naked and hiding in a bag. Which does your husband do, or does he do something in between?
Do I find it "chilly" running around naked? No, today is a very hot day, and going to the lake and taking all my clothes sounds like a very good option.

 

[Muslimwoman]

"What? So the only way to honour G-d is to show ourselves off? "
How about just being normal? I find it astonishing that you cannot conceive of any intermediate possibility between being naked and hiding in a bag. Which does your husband do, or does he do something in between?
Do I find it "chilly" running around naked? No, today is a very hot day, and going to the lake and taking all my clothes sounds like a very good option.

Normal??? You mean your perception of 'normal' I take it? What on earth are you talking about I cannot conceive of any intermediate possibility - for whom? It is every individuals CHOICE as to how they dress. You want to go naked, get half dressed, cover yourself or wear a bag, go for it, that is your choice.

Clearly there is something you are failing to understand here - CHOICE. You have the choice to go to the lake and swim or sunbathe naked. I have the choice to wear my jeans, big floppy blouse and cover my hair even on a hot day. Now, some days I choose to wear a big dress with my hair cover (that would be a bag to you). I also have the choice to ignore my submission to G-d and walk around in a bikini, however I CHOOSE not to do that.

May I ask you about your thoughts on Nuns and priests. Are they abnormal to you because they wear 'bags' to respect G-d? Or is it just Muslims dressing to respect G-d that you object to?

My husband wears a white 'bag' some days and jeans on others, depends on his CHOICE that day. Although I prefer him in his 'bag', he looks so gorgeous.

The fact that my CHOICES do not sit well with you really could not have less effect on my thinking. I am however intrigued as to why my choices offend you so much and make you think of me as not 'normal'. You appear to be all for choice and freedom until someone chooses a different lifestyle to you, then they cease to be normal. Perhaps you should look up the definition of bigot.

 

[bob x]

Islam has nothing to do with respecting other people's choices. It is about imposing a communitarian uniformity. If you were just one individual choosing to present yourself in the face-mask, I would still think your choice reflected an attitude that made it unlikely we could ever be good friends (I find extreme body shame rather off-putting). But you are representing the package of attitudes that leads to a friend of mine's experience the first time she went to Tangiers, went out in what would be considered "modest" clothing in any non-Muslim country, and was trailed by menacing boys shouting YOU WANT ME TO F*** YOU, YOU AMERICAN WHORE? If women should hide in a bag, lest the sight even of a face stir a sexual thought, then equally they should hide in their houses, except when there is great necessity to go out, and then that should be with a male escort, lest the sight of a lone female be too much temptation. And if a girl goes out with a boy who has not been approved for her, she must be killed lest the contagion of free choice in matters of love start spreading in the society.

One thing I still do not get about you: you say that you only clothe yourself in long dresses and a hair-covering, which I would not find very odd. Yet you choose to present yourself here in the hideous face-mask: why do you do that? You must know that this gives the impression of you as a willing participant in the kind of Islam described in the last paragraph.

You ask what I think about nuns. I consider them representative of the same kind of repressed attitude that makes it very unlikely I could ever have much friendship with them or respect for them.

 

[Muslimwoman]

Islam has nothing to do with respecting other people's choices. It is about imposing a communitarian uniformity.

Well thank you for explaining to me what my religion is about and all this time I felt free to choose. Unfortunately you hold the usual misconceptions but rather than asking about those issues or listening to my answers you assume to be right.

If you were just one individual choosing to present yourself in the face-mask, I would still think your choice reflected an attitude that made it unlikely we could ever be good friends (I find extreme body shame rather off-putting).

Here you go again, what extreme body shame? I am in no way ashamed of my body I simply choose to keep my body private. If my choice, to see my body as private, offends you then I suggest you need to take a good hard look at your attitudes.

As for friendship, if you would judge a person purely by their choice of clothing then you are right, we would never be in any way friendly as I could not bring myself down to that level.

If women should hide in a bag, lest the sight even of a face stir a sexual thought, then equally they should hide in their houses, except when there is great necessity to go out, and then that should be with a male escort, lest the sight of a lone female be too much temptation. And if a girl goes out with a boy who has not been approved for her, she must be killed lest the contagion of free choice in matters of love start spreading in the society.

I leave the house virtually every day, all by my little self. Oh my goodness, we do not believe in sex before marriage - shame on us. We do not have the problem of single parent families - shame on us. We must seek a girls concent to a marriage and if she says no then she cannot be married to that man - shame on us.

Girls are killed for dating in Iran, where it is now illegal but still happens due to cutural issues and Saudi, where they are all loonies of the first order. Now go back just 50 years in western societies where unwed mothers were thrown into lunatic asylums for life, would you say we are so far advanced?

It is your right to believe that all young girls should be free to have sex with whomever they please but do not expect everyone in the world to agree with you.

One thing I still do not get about you: you say that you only clothe yourself in long dresses and a hair-covering, which I would not find very odd. Yet you choose to present yourself here in the hideous face-mask: why do you do that? You must know that this gives the impression of you as a willing participant in the kind of Islam described in the last paragraph.

The picture was designed for me by a friend here on this forum and I think she looks beautiful. Most of the regular people here on CR know who I am, they have seen my photograph, without hair cover, on the what do you look like thread. So I do not hide behind an image. You see they bother to get to know me, my personal beliefs and do not jump to odd conclusions about me. There is also the thread I started, which I quoted before, called why do you think I am oppressed. That was my first thread here at this forum to give people the opportunity to ask questions and learn about me. I bet you a pound to a penny you didn't go and read the thread, yet could have learned so much about my reasons for converting and why I made the choices I did.

As for the 'hideaous face mask' it is a womans right to choose to wear it. In Saudi the women must wear it but my views on Saudi are quite clear. In Egypt you will see groups of girlsin cafe's, some wearing the face veil, others just a head cover and some with bear heads. It is an individuals choice and nothing to do with you or me or anyone else, if that is how they choose to submit their life to G-d then far be it for us to criticise.

You really need to work on your 'jump to conclusions' attitude. Do you judge everyone by their clothing or whether they are a good person? It is such a shame because with your attitude you will miss the opportunity of meeting some really nice people in this world.

You ask what I think about nuns. I consider them representative of the same kind of repressed attitude that makes it very unlikely I could ever have much friendship with them or respect for them.

Well it is nice to know that you have the same closed mind for all people of faith.

Salaam

 

[bob x]

As for friendship, if you would judge a person purely by their choice of clothing then you are right, we would never be in any way friendly as I could not bring myself down to that level.

It is not the choice of clothing but the *attitude* which the clothing indicates: if it turns out that I am mistaken about what attitudes the person holds, that would change my view, of course. But I do not appear to be mistaken here: you berate me for thinking that Islam is not about respecting choices, yet you say "It is your right to believe that all young girls should be free to have sex with whomever they please but do not expect everyone in the world to agree with you." I do not, of course, expect everyone to agree with me, but I do not respect people with the repressive attitude. I have never heard of "unwed mothers thrown into lunatic asylums for life", but would regard anyone who did such a thing as barbaric, regardless of which ethnicity or religion they were.

Most of the regular people here on CR know who I am, they have seen my photograph, without hair cover, on the what do you look like thread. So I do not hide behind an image. You see they bother to get to know me, my personal beliefs and do not jump to odd conclusions about me. There is also the thread I started, which I quoted before, called why do you think I am oppressed. That was my first thread here at this forum to give people the opportunity to ask questions and learn about me. I bet you a pound to a penny you didn't go and read the thread

No, I have not read everything on this board: I haven't been here in a few years, although I was once a regular (my home computer won't connect to here anymore, so I got out of the habit of checking this board). I find it odd that you present yourself on your icon as if you were one of those Saudis that you (judgmentally?) call "loonies of the first order", if as it happens you do not actually dress in anything like that style. It sends a strong message, a message which I find even more "loony" than you do.

Well it is nice to know that you have the same closed mind for all people of faith.

Not ALL people of faith are like that: and no, I do not have a "closed mind" with regard even to Catholic nuns, very few of whom dress in the old-fashioned "penguin suit" anymore, precisely because they do not want to send a message that they still hold on to repressive attitudes from the deep past. If I met a nun who was still dressed that way, I would to be sure have a bad first impression which she would have to work to overcome.

 

[Muslimwoman]

It is not the choice of clothing but the *attitude* which the clothing indicates:

Gosh, well I would suggest that you should begin to judge people by the person under the clothing rather than making assumptions about them.

I have never heard of "unwed mothers thrown into lunatic asylums for life", but would regard anyone who did such a thing as barbaric, regardless of which ethnicity or religion they were.

As you will see in the following links, some of these places were only shut down as late as 1997. They were all over Europe and some countries still practiced this until very recently. I don't know about the USA but of course you had the issue of jailing people for interracial relationships until very recent history. So perhaps we should not speak as though we live in paradise and others are barbaric idiots:

The vanished | Social care | SocietyGuardian.co.uk

http://www.tnr.com/doc.mhtml?i=20030901&s=kauffmann090103

I find it odd that you present yourself on your icon as if you were one of those Saudis that you (judgmentally?) call "loonies of the first order", if as it happens you do not actually dress in anything like that style. It sends a strong message, a message which I find even more "loony" than you do.

I think you need to get out more, Muslim women all over the world choose to cover their faces, not just in Saudi. So, for you, what strong message does it send?

If I met a nun who was still dressed that way, I would to be sure have a bad first impression which she would have to work to overcome.

Why should she have to work to overcome anything? Why shouldn't you have to learn not to jump to conclusions about people? The dress is a matter of faith, a personal relationship with G-d, not about political or social attitudes. Do you really believe that your principles are so right and anyone that does not agree must be seen with suspicion?

 

[bob x]

Gosh, well I would suggest that you should begin to judge people by the person under the clothing rather than making assumptions about them.

Most people do not wear clothing that sends strong messages. But a swastika armband, or a face full of safety pins, or a T-shirt with some blaring message, gives the impression that a message is intended. A nun in present-day America who wore the antique habit would be signalling that she disapproves of Vatican II and wants to restore the 1950's Catholic church: or perhaps she would have some other motivation for dressing so, but she would have no right to be surprised if people took her to be intending such a message.
As between the two of us, I have never judged you by your clothing, which I have never seen (from your description, it does not sound like your actual clothing would strike me as terribly unusual, as I told you: although you do not seem to pay much attention to what I say to you), but your choice of icon, which gives the impression of intending to send a strong message, one which I warned you I am strongly prejudiced against. Once you accept the premise (as you apparently do) that girls should not be permitted to exercise choice about sex (you say nothing about boys), then the issue is how far you will go to prevent female choice: and the face-mask represents the most extreme solution, of treating all females in effect as presumptively "criminal", as the Saudis, Iranians, and (as you point out) many Muslims from several other countries do. You yourself disparage the Saudis and Iranians: my question to you, way back at the start, was why you choose to present yourself here as someone who looks to agree with the Saudi position, if in fact you do not.

So perhaps we should not speak as though we live in paradise and others are barbaric idiots

Who is "we"???
It seems to me you are "jumping to conclusions" about me far more than I am about you. Whatever did I say that would give you the impression that I think the west is a "paradise" or that I have any higher opinion of barbaric idiots among the conservative Christians than among Muslims?

The dress is a matter of faith, a personal relationship with G-d, not about political or social attitudes.

I disagree. It has everything to do with political and social attitudes.

 

[Muslimwoman]

A nun in present-day America who wore the antique habit would be signalling that she disapproves of Vatican II and wants to restore the 1950's Catholic church: or perhaps she would have some other motivation for dressing so, but she would have no right to be surprised if people took her to be intending such a message.

But should you not ask her what message, if any, she is trying to convey? Look at cloistered nuns, they wear the habit but intend no message, as they are cloistered. It is a womans choice to become a cloistered nun, to dress as a nun and give her life to G-d.

but your choice of icon, which gives the impression of intending to send a strong message, one which I warned you I am strongly prejudiced against.

What I am trying to find out is why you are strongly against it. I will be honest your reaction has taken me completely by surprise, as it has never been mentioned before. So if a woman chooses to wear a veil, because she believes it makes her more pious, why should you be strongly against it?

Once you accept the premise (as you apparently do) that girls should not be permitted to exercise choice about sex (you say nothing about boys),

I certainly do hold the same views about boys but we have only discussed Islamic dress for girls.

then the issue is how far you will go to prevent female choice:

I will not go one inch to prevent anyone's choice. If a girl chooses to have sex before marriage then it is up to her. I would advise against it and if she was Muslim, explain why she should reconsider but would not try to stop her. If a Muslim girl came to me and admitted she had done this and was ashamed, I would try to help her to repent and amend her ways. I would not judge her for her actions, we all sin.

But this is my point, it would be her choice and if her choice is to wear the veil, why should you or I try to stop her or judge her for her choice?

and the face-mask represents the most extreme solution, of treating all females in effect as presumptively "criminal", as the Saudis, Iranians, and (as you point out) many Muslims from several other countries do.

We just do not seem to be communicating well on this issue. Wearing the face veil is not ordained by our religion, it is a choice for the vast majority of Muslim women. If a girl chooses to wear the veil, how is that a form of treating her? Where does being a criminal come into it? She has chosen to wear it.

There is only Saudi that forces women to wear the veil, refuses to allow women to drive, etc. This is not our faith, it is cultural oppression but you should not judge our religion by this one country. Iranian women do not have to wear the veil. They had to in Afghanistan for a time, becuase the Saudi's funded the Taliban but that is no longer the case.

I know families where none of the women wear the face veil but their 18 year old daughter chooses to. I have asked their families why and they just shrug, they do not know but it is her choice. Some young women even see it as a fashion accessory now. But the message they are trying to send is, I am modest, I do not want you to look at me with lust, I am pious so don't try to chat me up.

You yourself disparage the Saudis and Iranians: my question to you, way back at the start, was why you choose to present yourself here as someone who looks to agree with the Saudi position, if in fact you do not.

I am sorry but that was purely an assumption on your part because you see the face veil as something evil. When I travel in the Middle East, with my husband, I do choose to wear a face veil. It is for my protection, no other reason, no political statement, I just don't want strange men oggling me and I have very European features so get looked at a lot over there.

I disagree. It has everything to do with political and social attitudes.

We will have to agree to disagree because I feel that is purely an assumption on your part.

 

[bob x]

"Look at cloistered nuns, they wear the habit but intend no message, as they are cloistered"
If they were cloistered, I couldn't very well be "looking" at them, now could I?
In America the custom of "cloistering" has never (thank God) been a part of the culture. Nuns work in schools, hospitals, and soup kitchens. They dress modestly, but since the 1960's no longer wear the old medieval costume-- except for the "Tridentine" or "Sedevacantist" sect, who think the last few Popes have been pawns of Satan, and that the Church should never have stopped teaching that all non-Catholics go straight to hell etc.

"I certainly do hold the same views about boys but we have only discussed Islamic dress for girls."
No, when you suggested that if I object to the face-mask, I must be insisting that you run around naked (being naked all the time is no more practical in the blazing sun than in a cold climate, although I find that being naked for an afternoon is very soothing; naked women come to that beach also, and I have friendly conversations with them which have nothing to do with propositions that they cheat on their husbands), I asked whether your husband masks his face or goes naked, and you say he does neither: why then is it only females who should be wrapped up?

"I will not go one inch to prevent anyone's choice. If a girl chooses to have sex before marriage then it is up to her. "
I find this difficult to reconcile with your statement that girls shouldn't have the "right" to have sex with whom they please. We do not seem to be communicating very well: I can certainly agree with you there.

"When I travel in the Middle East, with my husband, I do choose to wear a face veil. It is for my protection, no other reason, no political statement, I just don't want strange men oggling me..."
This is the crux of the matter. In (many) Mideastern societies, it is taken for granted that women deserve to be ogled and harrassed if they do not hide their faces; some will even assume that they deserve to be assaulted. By giving in to this, you seem to be accepting that you deserve the harrassment: this is what I mean by saying that these societies treat all women as presumptively criminal. You talk about women "choosing" the veil, but is that really "choice"? It sounds like, a Jew might "choose" to wear a yellow star of David rather than be killed for refusing to do so.

 

[InLove]

Salaam, Sally--

As you know, I can't stay around for much posting due to some other things going on in my personal life, but I just wanted to drop in for a quick word.

This thread certainly took a strange turn, didn't it? I can't help wondering if the artist who created your latest avatar (which is extremely cool, by the way) were not on vacation, would he drop by? That might be interesting, ya think? LOL.

Also, I think you will find that a tiny bit of research will show that the information given here about nuns in the U.S. is not exactly correct. Just in case you did not know....

A quick comment for bob x--dear, I think that if you looked around a bit more, you might see just how liberal-minded my friend Sally really is, and what a great heart she has. I'd say that when it comes to tolerance, she's got you beat hands-down. I think you have been getting away with harassment, and she is the kind of person who, instead of reporting you, has endeavored to explain for the sake of understanding. You need to get out more. I figure you might respond to me, but if I don't acknowledge, it is because I will not be here much in C-R for a while. I just felt moved to come in and give a word of support for Muslimwoman's right to choose.

InPeace,
InLove

 

[Snoopy]

Not ALL people of faith are like that: and no, I do not have a "closed mind" with regard even to Catholic nuns, very few of whom dress in the old-fashioned "penguin suit" anymore, precisely because they do not want to send a message that they still hold on to repressive attitudes from the deep past. If I met a nun who was still dressed that way, I would to be sure have a bad first impression which she would have to work to overcome.

In light of the attitude you demonstrate on this thread I wonder why you are interested in a forum called Comparative Religion.

You say how highly prejudicial you are regarding this topic but I would just like to comment that it is my understanding, perhaps mistaken, that nuns and monks of all religions typically wear clothing appropriate to their order. All clothing gives out messages to the perceiver. What that message is will vary from perceiver to perceiver.

Monk - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Nun - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

s.