why does god punish flawed creatures that he made forever

Pico said:
Your premise is wrong. God did not make our flaws. God can't do or make anything short of perfection.

The flaws are there because we've rejected God and turned away from him. Our flaws are a result of sin, along with everything wrong with the world. God didn't make them.
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perfection wouldnt go against god. especially if we are defining god as perfection.

and didnt god make this world, satan and all the other bull crap that goes on?
 
Pico said:
We are all accountabel to God for our actions. He gave us a moral consicence so we know what's right and wrong, and we choose to do wrong instead of right (called sinning). It was our choice, we are responsible for that choice and the consequences that come with it.
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so are there consequences for not sinning?

one sin makes a man a sinner. but what does one act of love do? make one a saint?
 
Pico said:
Satan benefits from us being eternaly punished. He hates God, but he can't do anything to God.

But he can hurt us. And he knows that God loves us, so his way of hurthing God is through us. So he tries as hard as he can to bring as many people down as possible.

God does not benefit, infact it greatly hurts him every time even one of his image bearrers is lost. But because of his just nature he has to judge sin, and the penalty of sin is death (physical and spiritual), just as he said in the Genesis Chap. 3

We obvously don't benefit from it but it is our just reward, and it's what we deserve.

The point is that God loves us enough that he respects human free will and choice that if we choose not to be with him he will honor that choice, and that God is the just judge of the world.
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so he loves giving us free will more than he loves ensuring that none of us go to hell?

god made satan, if satan has the power to put people in hell. why does god let satan exist?
 
what makes you think that any human has done anything to warrant eternal torture?

how bad do you think humans really are?
 
shadowman said:
perfection wouldnt go against god. especially if we are defining god as perfection.

and didnt god make this world, satan and all the other bull crap that goes on?
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Yes, God made this world, but he made it perfect. He gave man dominion over it. But when man sinned (which to an infinitely holy God, makes man infinitely in the wrong), the whole of creation was tainted by sin. That's why there's "bull crap" in this world.
 
so why did man have the capacity to sin if he was made perfect by god. why did god create beings that could sin?
 
shadowman said:
so are there consequences for not sinning?

one sin makes a man a sinner. but what does one act of love do? make one a saint?
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The consequence for not sinning is that you don't die, and you live a perfect life in God's eyes (since he created life, he knows what a perfect life is, and he has defined it in his word). Unortunately, all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. But only Jesus, the one who live a perfect life without sin, was the perfect sacrifice for our sins.

Humans were made to love. Loving does not more than make us human and God's image bearers. But the simple act is that just one sin makes us a sinner, which is high treason against the Holy Almighty Creator God.

God wights all sin equally. He is so infinitely perfect that even 1 sin is infinitely wrong.
 
shadowman said:
so why did man have the capacity to sin if he was made perfect by god. why did god create beings that could sin?
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Because, he created us to love, but real love is a choice. God wants us to willingly choose to love him, not to be forced to. Of course if there was no option otherwise there would be no choice. Unfortunately, man chose the other choice and now we reap the consequences we deserve. We are living in a world without God, because when Adam disobeyed him, he basically said, "I want to do things my own way, and not your way." And this world we live in sucks.
 
shadowman said:
so he loves giving us free will more than he loves ensuring that none of us go to hell?

god made satan, if satan has the power to put people in hell. why does god let satan exist?
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Without free will we could not love, because love is a choice. And God wants us to choose him.

God made satan to test mankind's love for him. Satan tempts us, and God wants to see if we'll say "This seems like it'll be neat, but God said it's wrong, so i'm not going to do it, because I love God and don't want to hurt him."
 
shadowman said:
what makes you think that any human has done anything to warrant eternal torture?

how bad do you think humans really are?
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Well, God exists out of time. The universe he made consists of space and time. So the only way for us to understand the concept of "without time passing" would be the word eternity.

And God plainly warned Adam that if he disobeyed God, he would surely die (spiritually and physically). And as I've stated before. God is so Holy he can not look upon sin, and he is so just that sin must be judged (and that judgement is death, as God said.) God is the God of life, so death would being completely cut off from life, which is what hell is: completely cut off from all life which only comes from God.

God has said in his word that: the hart of man is decietful and desperately wicked. God can not lie.
 
so how is justice dishing out eternal punishment?

isnt that kind of a horrible thing to do?
 
shadowman said:
so how is justice dishing out eternal punishment?

isnt that kind of a horrible thing to do?
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Well if someone doesn't want to be with God forever, then there's only 1 other option. And that option is sent to a place devoid of God, the source of all good in the world, which is where the torment comes from.
 
Pico said:
Well if someone doesn't want to be with God forever, then there's only 1 other option. And that option is sent to a place devoid of God, the source of all good in the world, which is where the torment comes from.
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Why is total oblivion not an option? Wouldn't it be kinder to end a soul's existence rather than subject them to eternal torture?
 
Silent Dave said:
Why is total oblivion not an option? Wouldn't it be kinder to end a soul's existence rather than subject them to eternal torture?
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Well if God did that, then it would me that we have no intrinsic value, but he is treating us more as a means to an end.

But God loves us enough to not destroy his image, and respects us enough to honor our choice. Despite how much it hurts him.
 
Pico said:
Well if God did that, then it would me that we have no intrinsic value, but he is treating us more as a means to an end.
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What's wrong with that? Wouldn't someone who is eternally suffering gladly give up the abstract notion of intrinsic value in exchange for being spared further suffering?
But God loves us enough to not destroy his image, and respects us enough to honor our choice. Despite how much it hurts him.
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How is that an act of respect? When children don't want to eat their vegetables, is it an act of respect to honor their choice and let them be unhealthy, or to make them eat them in spite of their choice? Moreover, since God is infinitely perfect (your own words), how could anything at all hurt him, much less in the eternal way that those of us not free of sin are subject to?
 
whatabout how much it hurts US???!!!! (to picos last post)


and if we have intrinsic value (Im glad that god decides we do), then we shouldnt be subject to this insane world god made for us, as well as the "find jesus or perish" maze that he set up.

why doesnt he just confront all of us in the real world and say; listen here guys this is what I want.... hmmm, then EVERYONE could be "saved"
 
Silent Dave said:
What's wrong with that? Wouldn't someone who is eternally suffering gladly give up the abstract notion of intrinsic value in exchange for being spared further suffering?
How is that an act of respect? When children don't want to eat their vegetables, is it an act of respect to honor their choice and let them be unhealthy, or to make them eat them in spite of their choice? Moreover, since God is infinitely perfect (your own words), how could anything at all hurt him, much less in the eternal way that those of us not free of sin are subject to?
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To treat people as having no intrinsic value but as a means to an end is immoral, and is completely against God's character.

And a loving parent knows that vegetables are good for their child. So out of love for their well being they will try to get their child to eat vegetables. But if they refuse to eat them, what else can teh parrent do? stuff them down their kid's throats? That is wrong.

God is hurt because he has compassion for us. And the origional word for "compassions" means to feel the pain of someone. God does not just leave us in this world, but he suffers along with us. Besides, you are not God, you have no idea how much it pains God when his image is lost. I do not know. But i know that God loves us more than anything which is why he punished himself (Jesus) for our sins and provided a way out of damnation.
 
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