can we agree that tormenting people for all time is wrong no matter what?

"First of all, it is not proper to make a theological doctrine out of one verse. Some try to take one or two verses on a subject and use them to interpret all the others. Instead of getting a balanced position, they arrive at an interpretation that is in agreement with their theological position.
very true indeed, and the trinity is just one of those things , looking to the whole of the bible and the harmony of the bible is the way to go .
6_jesus_group.jpg

[FONT=verdana, helvetica, arial, sans serif]Jesus told the Jews: "I have come down from heaven to do, not my will, but the will of him that sent me." —John 6:38[/FONT]​
 
BlaznFattyz;114286 [SIZE=2 said:
if he offers peace and eternal salvation, i would take it and i wouldnt doubt him..[/SIZE]
yes that is the way to go ,
"Happy are the mild-tempered ones, since they will inherit the earth. matthew 5;5
(Revelation 21:3) With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: "Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them.
 
very true indeed, and the trinity is just one of those things , looking to the whole of the bible and the harmony of the bible is the way to go .

actually i was referring to you and you continued bashing of the trinity in a christian forum, your taking scriptures out of context to match the angle of the watchtower which makes it not match the rest of the bible, and you always changing the topic so you can copy and paste.

if god is holy, then all that is unholy cannot approach him. if jesus is the saviour, he can make one fit for heaven by forgiveness and thru faith. the rest will be judged. im sure that in that group of people that will be judged there are some who have cursed god, did much evil, and have followed satan, all the while knowing that god existed--they rejected him. i dont want to pretend to know what god has in store, but i think people that bad will end up in hell with satan and his angels. but there is a book of life that jesus opens up in heaven, and those that were not found it in are cast out. you want your name to be there.
 
yes that is the way to go ,
"Happy are the mild-tempered ones, since they will inherit the earth. matthew 5;5
(Revelation 21:3) With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: "Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them.

Bashing trinitarians is not exactly condusive to the faith Mee...

I suggest you give it a rest.

v/r

Q
 
doesnt anyone see the utter sickness of people being tormented for all time?

there is NO point.

its usefulness is only as a warning.

after the fact, holding people in a state of torment is so so so so so so so so very wrong.

seriously, I cant emphasize the extremeness of the situation enough.

I read this book this week about this devout chritian who went to Hell, and then Jesus took him out and told him to tell everyone that this place is real and that it is not his desire for anyone to go there.

While he talks about hell he lists reverences to passages in the Bible that relate to what he experienced (and there is a lot of refferences he found too). Jesus rescuted him and told him that he wanted him to tell people that Hell is a real place, and it is not his desire for anyone to go there. He also said he understood how deep God's love for mankind really was and every time a person is lost to satan, it saddens him immencely.

The truth is, Hell is as bad as the Bible makes it seem to be (torment of every kind: physical, emotional, and spiritual). After reading the book, i felt so bad for the people who go there and wondered, "Why does it have to be that bad?" Then it dawned on me: Jesus said that Hell was made for the devil and his angels. Man was made for fellowship with God; man was never made to go to hell. Hell is the complete absence of God and as the bible says "All good thing come from God." So therefore Hell is the complete absence of any good things (hence where the torment comes from). Remember how God made the world perfect, and sin brought suffering? Well thanks to God's grace there is still some good in the world, but that is not the case in Hell.

Now to our limited perspectives we think people being tormented for an eternity is unjust, but we are not all-knowing like God. He is the only just, righteous judge. He is so holy that he can not even look upon sin. But thanks to Jesus' sacrifice, all who want to be with God will be cleansed of their sin, since their debt has been paid. But for the people who spend their whole lives ignoring God--the one who created them and who they owe everything to--and not wanting to be with him but to do what thier evil hearts desire, God has no choice but to give them what they want/deserve: not to be with him.

Hell is God's great justice on mankind. God's nature demands that he judges sin, and sadly some people don't accept his gift of forgiveness. It's not God's fault for them going there, but their own fault for ignoring, or failing even to aknowledge the existence of God. It says in the Bible that God put the knowledge of himself in the heart of every person, and that the wonders of his divine nature are clearly seen in his creation so people are without excuse for denying him.

We do not know these people. We do not know what they've done, thought about, or their motives. We do not know what God has done to try to bring them to himself, and we also do not know how they've rejected him. But God does.
 
Matthew 5:22
But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca, ' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.
Matthew 5:21-23 (in Context) Matthew 5

Matthew 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matthew 10:27-29 (in Context) Matthew 10

Matthew 23:15
"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.
Matthew 23:14-16 (in Context) Matthew 23

I read a book too sounds like Hell is full of Religious Fundamentalist.
 
so you think its ok that god lets humans undergo the torment that was meant for the devil ands his angels.

I read this book this week about this devout chritian who went to Hell, and then Jesus took him out and told him to tell everyone that this place is real and that it is not his desire for anyone to go there.

While he talks about hell he lists reverences to passages in the Bible that relate to what he experienced (and there is a lot of refferences he found too). Jesus rescuted him and told him that he wanted him to tell people that Hell is a real place, and it is not his desire for anyone to go there. He also said he understood how deep God's love for mankind really was and every time a person is lost to satan, it saddens him immencely.

The truth is, Hell is as bad as the Bible makes it seem to be (torment of every kind: physical, emotional, and spiritual). After reading the book, i felt so bad for the people who go there and wondered, "Why does it have to be that bad?" Then it dawned on me: Jesus said that Hell was made for the devil and his angels. Man was made for fellowship with God; man was never made to go to hell. Hell is the complete absence of God and as the bible says "All good thing come from God." So therefore Hell is the complete absence of any good things (hence where the torment comes from). Remember how God made the world perfect, and sin brought suffering? Well thanks to God's grace there is still some good in the world, but that is not the case in Hell.

Now to our limited perspectives we think people being tormented for an eternity is unjust, but we are not all-knowing like God. He is the only just, righteous judge. He is so holy that he can not even look upon sin. But thanks to Jesus' sacrifice, all who want to be with God will be cleansed of their sin, since their debt has been paid. But for the people who spend their whole lives ignoring God--the one who created them and who they owe everything to--and not wanting to be with him but to do what thier evil hearts desire, God has no choice but to give them what they want/deserve: not to be with him.

Hell is God's great justice on mankind. God's nature demands that he judges sin, and sadly some people don't accept his gift of forgiveness. It's not God's fault for them going there, but their own fault for ignoring, or failing even to aknowledge the existence of God. It says in the Bible that God put the knowledge of himself in the heart of every person, and that the wonders of his divine nature are clearly seen in his creation so people are without excuse for denying him.

We do not know these people. We do not know what they've done, thought about, or their motives. We do not know what God has done to try to bring them to himself, and we also do not know how they've rejected him. But God does.
 
so you think its ok that god lets humans undergo the torment that was meant for the devil ands his angels.


I'm not comfortable with the idea. It pains me that people have to go through that. But they did it to themselves by denying God all their lives, and because of God's just nature he had to judge their sins. But i know that I deserve worse than some of them, and am eternally grateful that God has saved me from such a fate. I do not deserve it, but it is because of God's great love for humanity that he provided a way out for us, even though we plainly said we didn't want to be with him and do things his way when we sinned. God's mercy and love passes all knowledge.

It's just a shame some people don't accept his free gift :(
 
what do you mean you dont deserve it. he freakin created you. why would he create a bunch of beings that dont deserved to be helped or spared by him?
 
who are you to say what you deserve and dont deserve. and who is god to say these things for that matter?
 
what do you mean you dont deserve it. he freakin created you. why would he create a bunch of beings that dont deserved to be helped or spared by him?


Because we willingly disobeyed him and the consequence for that is spiritual death and punishment in Hell. It just shows how great his love is, that he would save the ones he loves even though they greatly don't deserve it.
 
oh yeah its a "gift" allright.

im glad that you were originally itching to punish me for all time, but oooh, you managed to scrape up from the odds and ends a "gift" for me.


saving people from eteernAL torment should not be looked at as miraculous or strange. its the HUMAN thing to do
 
Because we willingly disobeyed him and the consequence for that is spiritual death and punishment in Hell. It just shows how great his love is, that he would save the ones he loves even though they greatly don't deserve it.



maybe we deserve forgiveness. a truly forgiving being wouldnt be obsessed with judgement and punishment for disobeying.

forgiveness as a mindstate wouldnt hold in mind the premise "even though I should punish you forever"

it would never dream to punish forever in the firstplace....



whats the point of it? seriously. why not forgive and heal instead of punish forever.
 
who are you to say what you deserve and dont deserve. and who is god to say these things for that matter?


Well God is the creator of all things. He has the right to make the rules. And God knows all things. God told us in his word that sinners must be judged for their sins, for they are responsible for their actions. Unfortunatley, everyoen sinned, and all are subject to God's judgement.

But as Jesus said: "For God so loved the world that he sent his only begotten Son so that all who believe in him will not perish but have eternal life." (John 3:16)
 
maybe we deserve forgiveness. a truly forgiving being wouldnt be obsessed with judgement and punishment for disobeying.

forgiveness as a mindstate wouldnt hold in mind the premise "even though I should punish you forever"

it would never dream to punish forever in the firstplace....



whats the point of it? seriously. why not forgive and heal instead of punish forever.

Look, you are looking at things through a limited, flawed, human perspective. We can't understand God's thoughts, for he is so far beyond us.

If you really knew God you would know he is not obsessed with damnation and judging people. He is obsessed with saving people, but he does warn what future awaits those who fail to repent, because he does not want anyone to perish.

If you haven't repented, why not? I know i've explained the doctrine of hell and salvation quite a few times, so why would someone refuse? The warnings are there, the way out is there. Why not take it?

I can see you don't understand God's ways, but there are somethigns we simply cannot understand without the Holy Spirit's help. Which is why we have to come to God by faith. Knowledge can only do so much but it takes an act of faith to come to God. After that step, you will recieve the Holy Spirit, and he will begin telling you about God and giving you understanding.
 
so why doesnt he just save everyone. If I am the hero I dont run up to people saying "here is what you have to do to get saved by me"

I just save them.

and arent we getting saved from gods wrath?

he wants to pour out wrath on a few people im pretty sure.

or else he would have skipped the judgemental part and gone right onto the forgiving part....
 
so now I have to believe that its ok that some people end up in hell or what?
 
so why doesnt he just save everyone. If I am the hero I dont run up to people saying "here is what you have to do to get saved by me"

I just save them.

and arent we getting saved from gods wrath?

he wants to pour out wrath on a few people im pretty sure.

or else he would have skipped the judgemental part and gone right onto the forgiving part....


Because he's not going to force people to be with him. They have free will, so they have to choose him. He can't force them to.

He wants to pour out his wrath because people's defiant disobediance angers God. And they deserve the punishment for their actions. God would rather much more save them for his mercy is greater than his judgement. But if they dont' accept his forgiveness and have their sins cleansed, they are still subject to God's judgement.
 
so now I have to believe that its ok that some people end up in hell or what?

You dont' have to be ok with it. I'm not OK with it. God isn't even OK with it, he hates having to do it, but he has no other choice. He must punish sin.
 
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