can we agree that tormenting people for all time is wrong no matter what?

[Silent Dave]

Look, you are looking at things through a limited, flawed, human perspective. We can't understand God's thoughts, for he is so far beyond us.

If you really knew God you would know he is not obsessed with damnation and judging people. He is obsessed with saving people, but he does warn what future awaits those who fail to repent, because he does not want anyone to perish.

Hold on -- given that we're not capable of understanding God's thoughts, how do you know that God wants what you say he wants? If you cite scripture, then how do you know -- in fact, how are you CAPABLE of knowing -- that God didn't lie throughout the whole thing?

If you haven't repented, why not? I know i've explained the doctrine of hell and salvation quite a few times, so why would someone refuse? The warnings are there, the way out is there. Why not take it?

You've explained it, perhaps, but have you proven it?

I can see you don't understand God's ways, but there are somethigns we simply cannot understand without the Holy Spirit's help. Which is why we have to come to God by faith. Knowledge can only do so much but it takes an act of faith to come to God. After that step, you will recieve the Holy Spirit, and he will begin telling you about God and giving you understanding.

[/quote] Is faith necessary to be aware of the simple fact of God's existence? If so, then why did you state in another thread that God has planted sure and definite knowledge of his existence of all of our hearts and in the world without us, "so that we are without excuse?" If not, then why are there so many morally good non-Christians in the world?

 

[shadowman]

sounds to me like his mercy and judgement are about equal on the old "scale of judging gods intentions"

so they deserve the puniushemnt, but only deserve the forgiveness if they accept it? or do they not deserve the forgiveness at all?

 

[shadowman]

You dont' have to be ok with it. I'm not OK with it. God isn't even OK with it, he hates having to do it, but he has no other choice. He must punish sin.

why. maybe he could change his mind and feel that he "must forgive sin" wouldnt that be a nicer god?

 

[Silent Dave]

You dont' have to be ok with it. I'm not OK with it. God isn't even OK with it, he hates having to do it, but he has no other choice. He must punish sin.

Says who?

 

[shadowman]

do we have knowledge of god of the bibles existence in our hearts? how do we know? do muslims and hindus and athiests and buddhists al so have knowledge of bible god in their hearts? please explain this one some more...

 

[Silent Dave]

Because he's not going to force people to be with him. They have free will, so they have to choose him. He can't force them to.

He wants to pour out his wrath because people's defiant disobediance angers God. And they deserve the punishment for their actions. God would rather much more save them for his mercy is greater than his judgement. But if they dont' accept his forgiveness and have their sins cleansed, they are still subject to God's judgement.

Outside of whatever masochists you may happen to know, can you name even a single person who, given all the facts and capable of making an informed decision, would WILLINGLY choose to be tortured here on Earth -- that is, tortured finitely, and for a non-eternal period of time?

If so, have you considered calling a psychiatrist on that person's behalf? If not, then what makes you think they, or anyone, would knowingly and willingly choose to be eternally tortured in the afterlife? Wouldn't any person with even a modicum of rationality choose, even at the expense of their own egos and hedonistic desires, to avoid ETERNAL pain and suffering?

 

[Pico]

Says who?

God said so. In his Word.

 

[shadowman]

what if the bible is not his word

 

[Silent Dave]

God said so. In his Word.

Where in his word? In which book, chapter and verse?

 

[Pico]

Where in his word? In which book, chapter and verse?

The entire Bible is his word.

 

[Pico]

what if the bible is not his word

Well, God says it is his word. The spirit has revealed to me that this is true. Plus the Bible has be subject to an enornous amount of scrutiny and still stands without contradiction (when looked at the contexts and original meaning of the words), or inaccuracy.

Plus, the Bible is teh only religious book with prophecy, that has been shown to be 100% accurate. No other book in the world can match up to that. There are some 200 prophecies about Jesus' life, death, lineage, where he would be born, when he would be born, how people would react to him. If the Bible were not inspirted by God, how could it prophesise with 100% accuracy?

 

[Silent Dave]

The entire Bible is his word.

Yes, but in which book, chapter and verse of "his word" does God say he has no choice but to punish sin?

 

[shadowman]

maybe they wrote the new testament so it matched up with the old.... prophecy fulfilled!

what do you mean by "the spirit has revealed to me that it is true"

how and when did this happen.

did it happen the first time you were exposed to chrisitan ideas?

 

[Silent Dave]

Well, God says it is his word. The spirit has revealed to me that this is true. Plus the Bible has be subject to an enornous amount of scrutiny and still stands without contradiction (when looked at the contexts and original meaning of the words), or inaccuracy.
Plus, the Bible is teh only religious book with prophecy, that has been shown to be 100% accurate. No other book in the world can match up to that. There are some 200 prophecies about Jesus' life, death, lineage, where he would be born, when he would be born, how people would react to him. If the Bible were not inspirted by God, how could it prophesise with 100% accuracy?

How is the revelation you received from "the spirit" different from the revelation Muslins receive that the Qu'ran is God's word?

If I demonstrated to you that the prophecies you mentioned were all flawed, that the inconsistencies were largely valid, and that there are a number of historical, scientific and factual accuracies in the Bible, how would you react?

 

[Pico]

Outside of whatever masochists you may happen to know, can you name even a single person who, given all the facts and capable of making an informed decision, would WILLINGLY choose to be tortured here on Earth -- that is, tortured finitely, and for a non-eternal period of time?

If so, have you considered calling a psychiatrist on that person's behalf? If not, then what makes you think they, or anyone, would knowingly and willingly choose to be eternally tortured in the afterlife? Wouldn't any person with even a modicum of rationality choose, even at the expense of their own egos and hedonistic desires, to avoid ETERNAL pain and suffering?

You know i don't see why anyone would not choose to avoid eternal suffering, that confuses me too. The message and warning and the way out are there, but they choose it not. I dont' know why, and i hate that they do becasue I don't want them to be subject to such a fate.

I suppose it's that some people dont' think God is real and don't believe any of the bible. Some people are just too proud and don't want to admit that there's anything more baller than they are.

Whatever it may be, it's because they have rejected God in their hearts.

 

[Pico]

How is the revelation you received from "the spirit" different from the revelation Muslins receive that the Qu'ran is God's word?

If I demonstrated to you that the prophecies you mentioned were all flawed, that the inconsistencies were largely valid, and that there are a number of historical, scientific and factual accuracies in the Bible, how would you react?

I don't know. Show me some proof and we can find out.

 

[Silent Dave]

You know i don't see why anyone would not choose to avoid eternal suffering, that confuses me too. The message and warning and the way out are there, but they choose it not. I dont' know why, and i hate that they do becasue I don't want them to be subject to such a fate.

I suppose it's that some people dont' think God is real and don't believe any of the bible. Some people are just too proud and don't want to admit that there's anything more baller than they are.

Whatever it may be, it's because they have rejected God in their hearts.

Well then why would anyone with a modicum of rationality accept God, even at the expense of a bruised ego, knowing full well that the alternative is eternal torture?

I suppose it's that some people dont' think God is real and don't believe any of the bible.

But according to you, no such people exist -- remember, you stated that God has planted knowledge of himself into everyone's heart, so that all men are without excuse. Are all atheists liars?

 

[Silent Dave]

I don't know. Show me some proof and we can find out.

I didn't say proof. I said demonstrations that the prophecies are flawed and that inconsistencies and errors exist. I can't PROVE that the Bible is errant in the sense that, whatever I say, you couldn't simply fall back on a logical possibility of inerrancy and a pre-existing faith.

What I can do is demonstrate that belief in an inerrant Bible is irrational.

What I want to know before doing so is, would I be wasting my time? Because as one atheist said, "it's impossible to reason someone out of a position that they didn't reason themselves into in the first place." Is that the case with you?

If so, then I won't bother.

If not, then PM me your email address, and we'll take up that part of the dialog off of this message board -- I suspect we're straying a bit from both topic and spirit of the board as it is.

 

[Pico]

Well then why would anyone with a modicum of rationality accept God, even at the expense of a bruised ego, knowing full well that the alternative is eternal torture?

Rationality by itself can't bring people to God. Many atheists rationally think God does not exist. Faith is the main thing. Faith must come first. You can rationalize the Bible all you want (as i have), but without faith there is no point.

But according to you, no such people exist -- remember, you stated that God has planted knowledge of himself into everyone's heart, so that all men are without excuse. Are all atheists liars?

Yes i believe so. But then again everyone is a liar. The only way i see it is that atheists deny God becaue they've hardened their hearts against Him refusing to believe, and Satan has led them astray. Why such things happen i'm not sure why.

 

[Silent Dave]

Rationality by itself can't bring people to God. Many atheists rationally think God does not exist. Faith is the main thing. Faith must come first. You can rationalize the Bible all you want (as i have), but without faith there is no point.

What, then, is faith?

Yes i believe so. But then again everyone is a liar. The only way i see it is that atheists deny God becaue they've hardened their hearts against Him refusing to believe, and Satan has led them astray. Why such things happen i'm not sure why.

Well then you can tell us why there are so many open-hearted people in Europe and the Americas, and so many hard-hearted people in Asia and Africa.

Also, to repeat a question I asked earlier, why are there so many morally good atheists in the world? By your reasoning they should be utterly sinful, or at least more sinful than Christians, but that doesn't seem to be the case.