Theosophy: Can we agree that tormenting people for all time is wrong no matter what?

[Muslimwoman]

Re: ~~(^.^)~~

--> I was referring to the time spent waiting for the final Judgement Day, not the time spent actually going through it. The way I see it, we reincarnate during this time. You had said your belief system only has us waiting in our graves and doing nothing during this time.

Hi Nick

Sorry I seem to have lost the ability to express myself recently. The time in the grave is a time of questioning, what you might call the Judgement element of the process. For Muslims we go through this time until the Day of Resurrection, which is when we will be sent to hell or allowed to enter heaven. The time in the grave for evil people will be a terrible time, until they get thrown into hell. So we are waiting in our graves but not doing nothing. I think this is where I came into this conversation, considering whether the torment in the grave was inflicted by ourselves rather than by Allah, as we will during that time be faced with every deed we have done and if we are going to hell we will know it and have that fear to contend with.

--> I am glad to see you are willing to question your belief system. I do not, and will not allow any inconsistencies in my belief system. (Fortunately, Theosophy has yet to throw an inconsistency at me.)

I believe nothing just because someone says I should. I truly believe we all have the truth inside us, we just have to learn to listen to that inner voice. It is like a knowledge we are born with, I feel I know automaticaly if I hear a scholar claim something is from Allah but it is not. I am not suggesting I have any ability or knowledge that everyone doesn't have, it is just to me it seems obvious (quite frankly I think it is because I have refused to grow up so have kept that annoying childlike ability to see what is really there).


--> Good for you. Are you trying to instigate some kind of revolution in Islamic thinking?

I would love to start an Islamic revolution, whereby we start with the Quran and a blank piece of paper and say 'ok page 1, what does it actually say'. Islam is such a beatiful religion but has been interpreted and reinterpreted into something hard to recognise.

--> --> I am glad to hear that. However, it does not change the fact that he thought he was going to Heaven, and was surprised when he didn't make it. If we can advertise such an idea (and stop at least one trip to Hell for one terrorist), we are making progress.

To be honest I have often said there will be many surprised Muslims when the time comes, so this comes as no surprise to me. This is one difficulty in fighting terrorism, they really actually believe that what they are doing is for Allah and the will be rewarded for it.

--> Now we are getting into one of our differences. I could never believe in an Almighty God that is moved by emotion.

I know He probably isn't emotional at all, that comes from my habit of humanising Allah and projecting my feelings onto Him - very bad habit.

--> If we could only teach them the idea of making bad karma (and needing to burn it off later), it would be a big improvement.

That is the silly thing Nick, we believe in Karma, we believe we will be rewarded for our good deeds and punished for our bad deeds. These people are just so far removed from normal thinking and they honestly believe that they are 'doing Allah's work' and will be rewarded for it.

Islamic leaders that are not extreme fanatics are starting to work against this since 9/11. Many have realised that the extremists don't care about their vicitms so are now using the great sin of suicide to try to draw young people away from this way of thinking. By harping on that a suicide will not be accepted into heaven they are trying to make these young people stop and think about their souls.

It is starting to work so unfortunately the terrorist leaders are now telling the young people that they do not commit suicide, as Allah himself sets the bomb off. They actually use remote detonators so the young people think Allah did it. It sounds unbelieveable to a rational person but it is true. Can you imagine the evil required to convince a person to commit suicide and then blame Allah for it. Makes my blood boil.

--> Insanity for which they will be held accountable, down to the last jot. Karma never forgets.

Inshallah and I pray Allah will be merciful to the young people that don't know any better and are duped by these evil people.

Do you believe in evil?

Salaam

 

[Nick the Pilot]

~~(^.^)~~

Muslimwoman, you said,

"The time in the grave is a time of questioning, what you might call the Judgement element of the process."​

--> I think Islam would agree that there are people who have been dead as long as 6,000 years. That seems a mighty long time to be doing some questioning, especially inside of a grave.

"For Muslims we go through this time until the Day of Resurrection, which is when we will be sent to hell or allowed to enter heaven."​

--> What about babies who die? what about severly retarded people? What about the unfairness of some people born horribly poor, while others are born filthy rich?

"The time in the grave for evil people will be a terrible time, until they get thrown into hell."​

--> What about people who were not good enough to go to Heaven, but not bad enough to go to Hell? They still suffer inside graves?

"I would love to start an Islamic revolution...."​

--> Does this put you into any danger? I was just reading about the lady in Indonesia who was thrown in jail because she chose not to be Muslim any more.

"By harping on that a suicide will not be accepted into heaven they are trying to make these young people stop and think about their souls."​

--> It sounds like progress is being made.

"Inshallah and I pray Allah will be merciful to the young people that don't know any better and are duped by these evil people."​

--> I am sorry to break your train of thought, but such a prayer (to avoid bad karma) does not exist in Theosophy. I think it is a bad idea to mess with the Lords of Karma.



However, there is another way to look at it. Karma is 100% fair. There is no need to worry about a diety treating them unfairly, nor a need for a diety to be merciful to them. None at all (according to Theosophy).

"Do you believe in evil?"​

--> My definition of evil is perhaps different than yours. I certainly do not believe in an evil hierarchy headed by a Devil. According to Theosphy, evil is defined as going in the opposite direction of the flow of spiritual evolution. What may be evil for one person is not necessarily evil for another. A man may kill to find food, and not be making bad karma. Another man who kills for sport is making bad karma.

"I would also love to learn to paint, maybe someone will teach me?!"​

--> I remember the story of one lady who learned how to play the piano after her physical death. I think the sky is the limit as to what we can do during that time.

 

[Nick the Pilot]

-----====(@_@)====-----

Muslimwoman, you said,

"The Quran states very clearly 'there shall be no compulsion in religion'."​

--> I think this is getting into the difference between Heaven and Nirvana (both are Theosophical concepts that do not conflict each other in the least). The choice to enter Nirvana must be made freely. As a matter of fact, getting into Nirvana is quite difficult, and requires a lot of sacrifice.

"Religion is not an actual factor in the Astral or the Mental, except where we chose it to be. --> Sorry I am not quite understanding you...."​

--> I think what Christian is saying is, religious ceremonies are not required.

"So do you believe in a 'higher power' as the creator and angels?"​

--> Yes.

"I have heard of the idea that everything is interconnected and we are each a small part of the 'energy' that is everything but that it is not controlled, it just is. Is Theosophy along those lines?"​

--> Yes. You have described the Theosophical teaching perfectly. The sense of separateness between you and me is necessary and only temporary.

"The Quran tells us that had Allah wanted to He could have made us all one nation but He did not and when we die He will tell us the difference between us."​

--> I like the first part of your statement, but not the second part. Sure, there are different kinds of people. But to say one group is better than another is wrong. As a matter of fact, just the opposite of this idea (the idea of universal brotherhood) is the number one Theosophical teaching. It has been said there is only one dogma in Theosophy, and that is brotherhood — he who speaks against brotherhood should be cast out of Theosophy.)

"I simply do not accept that it means He would say 'ok you lot are right and everyone else is wrong and going to hell'."​

--> If I were to use your "He" terminology, I would say "He" does not say anything of the sort.

"I am not sure I could cope without my belief in a personal relationship with Allah or of course in His Divine Being but that is just me."​

--> Theosophy is all about learning specific techniques that accelerate our progress along the Path to Nirvana. I do not think belief in a personal diety slows you down. Monotheists can make just as quick progress along the Path as anyone else. (As I said before, when a person applies for admission to Nirvana, they are not asked if they believe in Jesus, Allah, etc.) It has been said Theosophy bridges the huge gap between monotheists and non-monotheists better than any other philosophy — I certainly agree.

Am I confusing you about the difference between Heaven and Nirvana?

 

[Muslimwoman]

Re: ~~(^.^)~~

--> I think Islam would agree that there are people who have been dead as long as 6,000 years. That seems a mighty long time to be doing some questioning, especially inside of a grave.

Hi Nick

Thank you for your responses and I am sorry I am not trying to make this discussion about Islam, I came to your thread to investigate your beliefs and see if they align with my thinking at all.

Time after death is a different concept to our hours and years. So a person that dies one day before Resurrection Day and a person that died 6,000 years ago, the time will seem the same to them. It has been described as if you slept for one night, including dreaming/nighmares.

--> What about babies who die? what about severly retarded people? What about the unfairness of some people born horribly poor, while others are born filthy rich?

We know that children and people with mental illness, of any religion or no religion) will be accepted into heaven without questioning. They will be at peace in the grave and then be welcomed into heaven.

As for the rich/poor issue, all will be made fair and all will be taken into account. So for example a poor man that steals bread to feed his children will not be judged the same as a rich man that steals money for greed. Allah is All Knowing and Merciful.

--> What about people who were not good enough to go to Heaven, but not bad enough to go to Hell? They still suffer inside grave?

Everything is relative, you will suffer according to your deeds. So I imagine Hitler is having a rather unpleasant time but Ghandi is having a nice rest. It is like punishment, some people will be punished in hell for a time and then allowed into heaven, others will remain in hell for eternity.

--> Does this put you into any danger? I was just reading about the lady in Indonesia who was thrown in jail because she chose not to be Muslim any more.

I get abuse for my views and some people think I am a bit of a fruitcake that needs 'guidance' but I have never felt in any physical danger. I love Islam but I love the Islam of the Quran, not the political version taken from the hadiths.

The issue of apostacy is quite a big issue in Islam. The Quran says nothing about punishing apostates, in fact it says there is no compulsion in religion but the Sunnah (the hadiths - sayings and deeds of the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) narrated after his death - many of which we know are untrue), say apostates should be killed. When you look into most of the more unpleasant aspects of Islam none of them come from the Quran, many oppose the Quran but these fundamentalists go with whatever is harshest - go figure!!!

--> I am sorry to break your train of thought, but such a prayer (to avoid bad karma) does not exist in Theosophy. I think it is a bad idea to mess with the Lords of Karma.

Oh we cannot avoid our deeds. It is not like some faiths where you can sorry and be forgiven. Every deed must be faced after death. My prayers for souls tend to be my human emotions getting the better of me, even though I know my prayers cannot change their judgement.

--> However, there is another way to look at it. Karma is 100% fair. There is no need to worry about a diety treating them unfairly, nor a need for a diety to be merciful to them. None at all (according to Theosophy).

But Allah cannot be unfair, it is impossible. He is the ultimate in 'fair'. What you sew, you reap - it is up to us to choose how we live our life and therefore our punishments or rewards in the next life.

 

[Muslimwoman]

Re: -----====(@_@)====-----

The choice to enter Nirvana must be made freely. As a matter of fact, getting into Nirvana is quite difficult, and requires a lot of sacrifice.

What sort of sacrifice is required?

--> Yes {re a higher power and angels}


--> Yes. You have described the Theosophical teaching perfectly. The sense of separateness between you and me is necessary and only temporary.

Sorry confused again. If you believe in a higher power and angels but that they do not 'control' everything then what is their purpose?

--> I like the first part of your statement, but not the second part. Sure, there are different kinds of people. But to say one group is better than another is wrong.

I don't believe the Quran says one group is better than the other, just that we are different. I believe we all have a given path and our test is to have the strength to stay on that path. When Allah tells us the difference between us I believe He will simply explain the reason for the different paths and the truth of what that path was.

Am I confusing you about the difference between Heaven and Nirvana?

Is it like the wheel of life, being different levels of heaven that you go to between lives. Then when you learn everything you need to know you move off that wheel and go to a higher plane above heaven?

 

[Nick the Pilot]

~~(^.^)~~

Muslimwoman, you said,

"Time after death is a different concept to our hours and years. So a person that dies one day before Resurrection Day and a person that died 6,000 years ago, the time will seem the same to them. It has been described as if you slept for one night, including dreaming/nighmares."​

--> I quess it all depends on what works in a particular person's belief system. I believe I died 6,000 years ago, and I have been very busy since. This makes more sense to me, so that is why I choose it to be in my belief system.

"It is like punishment, some people will be punished in hell for a time and then allowed into heaven, others will remain in hell for eternity."​

--> It sounds like people go straight from Hell to Heaven. I prefer the Theosophical approach, in which people move slowly through various levels of Purgatory on their way to Heaven (and eventually, Nirvana).

I get abuse for my views...."​

--> Welcome to the club. My belief system has cost me friendships. It is a price I am willing to pay. We religious pioneers have a price to pay, and we must be willing to pay it.

"The Quran says nothing about punishing apostates...."​

--> I am glad to hear that. Theosophy teaches that all good people of all faiths are making progress towards Heaven and Nirvana.

"Oh we cannot avoid our deeds. It is not like some faiths where you can sorry and be forgiven."​

--> That is why your appeal for divine mercy struck me as rather odd.

"...getting into Nirvana is quite difficult, and requires a lot of sacrifice. --> What sort of sacrifice is required?"​

--> My, but this gets us into a complicated topic. Every decent human being can get into Heaven after death (according to Theosophy). Not so for Nirvana. It has been said the requirements to get into Nirvana are harsh, but that is a negative way of looking at it. It is just that the requirements to get into Nirvana are high, and getting there takes a lot of discpline, sacrifice, and determination.

And it could not be any other way. For one thing, people in Nirvana have achieved what I call cosmic consciousness. This means the sense of separateness has disappeard. Here on Earth, I can never appreciate what it means for you to be you, and vice versa. In Nirvana, this limitation disappears. I BECOME you, and you BECOME me (yet our senses of individuality remain intact.) Not one sliver of selfishness is allowed of a person in Nirvana, because it would spread to everyone in Nirvana, which means every living being in the entire universe who is above the level of physical human beings.









Here is a short quote from a man named George Arundale who achieved Nirvanic consciousness, and became one with some plants in a garden. He felt their pain as they were being cut by a heartless gardner.

"Many years ago, it was in 1912 at Taormina, Sicily, I had my first glimpse of the fundamental unities. I remember sitting at the window of my room in the hotel in which a party of us were staying, and I was listlessly dreaming. All of a sudden my half non-seeing eyes rested on the orange grove in the little valley beneath, and I found myself peculiarly, wonderfully, identified with the orange trees, with their very life and being. I was at my window, yet was I also in the orange grove — indeed, I was the orange grove. It was almost as if my consciousness flickered between George Arundale as George Arundale and George Arundale as the orange grove. I was two entities, yet one. And as I lived as the orange grove a gardener entered and began to pluck some of the oranges and to cut off some of the branches. All these things the gardener was doing to me. I rebelled — not as George Arundale might rebel, not with my mind and my will, but as orange groves apparently do rebel. I was conscious of discomfort, of loss, not exactly of pain but of something next door to it. I was the more discomforted because the gardener did not treat me reverently or affectionately, but as if I were inanimate with no feelings, with no capacity for sensation. Why could he not realise that the same life was in us both? If he bad only had the attitude of asking my permission, of begging my pardon, for his actions, of conveying to me that I could make others happy by sharing myself with them, I should not have minded so much. But he was callous, selfish, and treated the orange grove as a slave instead of as a comrade. He hurt me every time be plucked an orange or cut off a branch. With a different attitude on his part, he might have had all my oranges, all my branches, and we might have rejoiced together, for we could have worked together. As it was, being at his mercy and treated as his chattel, life was only just worth living, and I was a poor orange grove, because uncared for.

"This experience of consciousness in the vegetable kingdom opened before my eyes In entirely new conception of consciousness at different levels of unfoldment, and of the implications of the all-embracing unity. I have never been the same since. I have never been able to pluck a flower, or even to uproot a weed, without as it were silently explaining my reasons to the plant or to the weed, requesting a sacrifice for some definite, I will not necessarily say larger, good. And I have never found any lack of cooperation." (Nirvana — An Occult Experience, by George Arundale)








​

--> I could go on about Nirvana, but I want to add only one thing. Heaven is seen as a place of houses, gardens, etc. Not so in Nirvana. Nirvana is a world of formless light. We are mere points of light within a larger field of light. Form is unnecessary (as we are mere points of light). Listen to this description of Nirvana.

“Try to imagine the whole universe filled with and consisting of an immense torrent of living light, and in it a vividness of life and an intensity of bliss beyond all description, a hundred thousand times beyond the greatest bliss of heaven. At first we feel nothing but bliss; we see nothing but the intensity of light; but gradually we begin to realize that even in this dazzling brightness there are brighter spots — nuclei, as it were — which are built of the light because there is nothing but the light, and yet through them somehow the light gleams out more brightly, and obtains a new quality which enables it to be perceptible upon other and lower planes, which without this would be altogether beneath the possibility of sensing its effulgence. And by degrees we begin to realize that these subsidiary suns are the great Ones, that these are Planetary Spirits, Great Angels, Karmic Deities, Buddhas, Christs and Masters, and that through Them the light and the life are flowing down to the lower planes.

“Gradually, little by little, as we become more accustomed to the stupendous reality, we begin to see that, in a far lower sense, even we ourselves are a focus in that cosmic scheme, and that through us also, at our much lower level, the light and the life are flowing to those who are still further away-not from it, for we are all part of it and there is nothing else anywhere — but further from the realization of it, the comprehension of it, the experience of it.” (The Masters and the Path)










​

Your questions continued:

"If you believe in a higher power and angels but that they do not 'control' everything then what is their purpose?"









​

--> Their purpose is to provide us with (1) a place for us to evolve spiritually, (2) a place that allows us to do things of our own free will, without being forced into doing anything. Controlling humans, Nirvanis, etc., is very much against the Universal Plan. A decision to enter Nirvana must be absolutely made of a free-will, a decision that is totally unforced -- I would not have it any other way.

"Am I confusing you about the difference between Heaven and Nirvana? --> Is it like the wheel of life, being different levels of heaven that you go to between lives."











​

--> Yes, because Heaven only occurs between incarnations. Nirvana only occurs after incarnating has stopped.

"Then when you learn everything you need to know you move off that wheel and go to a higher plane above heaven?










​

--> Yes, as long as that wheel is seen as being a wheel of successive incarnations. And, the wheel must be seen as eventually stopping, just as reincarnations eventually stop.


~~~

The software at this Forum is still messed up, and still continues to add uncommanded carriage-returns. I give up going back and deleting all these uncommanded carriage-returns.

 

[Muslimwoman]

Re: ~~(^.^)~~

I believe I died 6,000 years ago, and I have been very busy since. This makes more sense to me, so that is why I choose it to be in my belief system.

Hi Nick

Which civilisations do you believe you have lived in/through?

-> It sounds like people go straight from Hell to Heaven. I prefer the Theosophical approach, in which people move slowly through various levels of Purgatory on their way to Heaven (and eventually, Nirvana).

I have never seen mentuion of whether we go straight from hell to heaven or whether we progress slowly. That is perhaps one of things we need not know at this point, as long as we know there is a chance of being allowed into heaven at some point.

Welcome to the club. My belief system has cost me friendships. It is a price I am willing to pay. We religious pioneers have a price to pay, and we must be willing to pay it.

One has to ask oneself if a 'friend' that cannot accept your beliefs was ever really a friend. That is how I view it. It is a shame there are such small minded people in the world.

-

-> That is why your appeal for divine mercy struck me as rather odd.

Oh that is just me being emotional. We can pray for the dead, the sick, etc but in truth our fate is written and the Quran tells us we cannot intercede for each other, so I fail to see how praying helps that person other than making us feel better about ourselves in the compassion stakes.

It is just that the requirements to get into Nirvana are high, and getting there takes a lot of discpline, sacrifice, and determination.

Forgive my lack of ambition but I will happy if I am allowed to do the ironing or wash the floors, anything but the hot place.

Here is a short quote from a man named George Arundale who achieved Nirvanic consciousness, and became one with some plants in a garden. He felt their pain as they were being cut by a heartless gardner.

So if this person has attained Nirvana why would he leave? (am assuming he left in order to tell this story?)

Heaven is seen as a place of houses, gardens, etc. Not so in Nirvana.

Islam speaks of the houses, the gardens and the rivers flowing.


--> Their purpose is to provide us with (1) a place for us to evolve spiritually, (2) a place that allows us to do things of our own free will, without being forced into doing anything.[/quote]

Who do they answer to? That sounds wrong but I don't know how to put it. They must have been created, so where does the creator fit in?

~~~

The software at this Forum is still messed up, and still continues to add uncommanded carriage-returns. I give up going back and deleting all these uncommanded carriage-returns.

Don't you just love technology. My laptop just did a Windows update now no web pages will open, I have a connection, IM works but every page of the web says cannot be opened - arrrrggggghhhh. Am now on my cranky old pc and the eleastic bands inside sound about ready to snap.

 

[Nick the Pilot]

~~(^.^)~~

Muslimwoman, you asked,

"Which civilisations do you believe you have lived in/through?"​

--> The two I best recollect are one in Japan, and another as as a nomad waaay out in the western deserts of China. Japanese people are always surprised by how well I speak Japanese. In my opinion, the only way to explain this is by reincarnation.

"That is perhaps one of things we need not know at this point, as long as we know there is a chance of being allowed into heaven at some point."​

--> I think the more we know, the better. I think knowing such a thing would make a big difference. Theosophy encourages asking such questions. (I think no other philosophy gives so much encouragement for these kinds of questions as Theosophy. The more questions we ask, the more dogma we challenge, the better Theosophists we become.)

"One has to ask oneself if a 'friend' that cannot accept your beliefs was ever really a friend."​

--> This is an issue that comes up often. (I am involved in helping non-Christians defend themselves against Christians.) It is amazing how our best friend can desert us as soon as we tell them we are not a Christian. My advice has always been, keep it a secret unless you are ready to lose the friendship (many times it is not worth losing the friendship). If only Christians knew that millions of non-Christians view Christiantiy mainly as a religion of aggression.... The failure of non-aggressive Christians to actively confront aggressive Christians really shows something to the rest of the world.)

"It is just that the requirements to get into Nirvana are high, and getting there takes a lot of discpline, sacrifice, and determination. --> Forgive my lack of ambition but I will happy if I am allowed to do the ironing or wash the floors, anything but the hot place."​

--> The vast majority of working towards Nirvana is done while incarnating in a physical body. It has been said that working towards Nirvana is the most difficult thing we will ever do.

"Who do they answer to? That sounds wrong but I don't know how to put it."​

--> Each "angel" answers to its immeditate supervisor. The chain of command is quite clearly fixed in place.

"They must have been created, so where does the creator fit in?"​

--> The Creator appears at the beginning of each universe, and initiates the appearance of everything else in the universe. More correctly, everything in the universe IS the Creator.


The Creator emerges periodically from the Absolute (at the beginning of a universe), and re-merges back into the Absolute at the end of the universe. We know practically nothing about the Absolute.

"Am now on my cranky old pc and the elastic bands inside sound about ready to snap."​

--> Let me know if you need:

- a 386 motherboard
- an 8086 motherboard (the original PC from the 1980's, with all ISA slots and no EISA slots)
- a 300 MB hard drive that weighs about five pounds and makes one heck of a racket
- DOS-ready network cards
- a Hercules monitor and video card (now that brings back old memories)
- a 300 baud modem (that's a 0.3k modem, folks)

 

[Muslimwoman]

Re: ~~(^.^)~~

The two I best recollect are one in Japan, and another as as a nomad waaay out in the western deserts of China. Japanese people are always surprised by how well I speak Japanese. In my opinion, the only way to explain this is by reincarnation.

So would Theosophy suggest a past life is why I feel so comfortable and 'at home' in Egypt? (although the language is not coming easily).

--> This is an issue that comes up often. (I am involved in helping non-Christians defend themselves against Christians.)

Sorry but why would a non Christian have to defend themselves against Christians? Do you just mean the 'you are going to hell' bit?

My advice has always been, keep it a secret unless you are ready to lose the friendship (many times it is not worth losing the friendship).

I would say fight bigotry wherever you find it. By keping such things secret we are encouraging the bigotry imo.

We know practically nothing about the Absolute.

What you call the Absolute I call Allah and we agree about how much we know of Him.

--> Let me know if you need:

Wow and you can remember all those things. No I need a new wooden ball (my pc is so old it is a wooden frame, with metal rods and little wooden beads you slide along). Delighted to report the laptop is up and running again (for now).

I have been sharing our discussion with my mother and we have decided she is a Theosophist, although she has never heard the term. Her beliefs are so in line with what you are sharing with me.

Salaam

 

[bob x]

Re: Theosophy: Can we agree that tormenting people for all time is wrong no matter w

"Sorry but why would a non Christian have to defend themselves against Christians? "
Oh my... Sorry to butt in here, but you made me laugh!

 

[Muslimwoman]

Re: Theosophy: Can we agree that tormenting people for all time is wrong no matter w

Oh my... Sorry to butt in here, but you made me laugh!

It is not something I know anything about.

 

[bob x]

Re: Theosophy: Can we agree that tormenting people for all time is wrong no matter w

Christians have tried to kill me, twice. Nobody else has ever tried to kill me (not even Muslims!)

 

[Muslimwoman]

Re: Theosophy: Can we agree that tormenting people for all time is wrong no matter w

Christians have tried to kill me, twice. Nobody else has ever tried to kill me (not even Muslims!)

Did they try to kill you because of their religious beliefs or they were nutcases that happened to be Christian?

 

[bob x]

Re: Theosophy: Can we agree that tormenting people for all time is wrong no matter w

The Book tells them they should. Your Book says the same.

 

[Muslimwoman]

Re: Theosophy: Can we agree that tormenting people for all time is wrong no matter w

The Book tells them they should. Your Book says the same.

Utterly and absolutely untrue regarding the Quran (I don't know about the Bible on that subject).

 

[Thomas]

Re: Theosophy: Can we agree that tormenting people for all time is wrong no matter w

Ditto Scripture ...

Thomas

 

[Nick the Pilot]

~~(='.'=)~~

Muslimwoman, you asked,

"So would Theosophy suggest a past life is why I feel so comfortable and 'at home' in Egypt? (although the language is not coming easily)."​

--> Definitely. Whenever I hear of someone attracted to a particular place or time in history, I always say to myself, "I know what they were doing last time." I think it would be fascinating to get a past-life regression on you, and hear about your past-life in Egypt.


As a matter of fact, learning Japanese was one of the most difficult things I have ever done. (Japanese grammar is backwards from English.) Once I learned it, however, I made progress that can only be explained by past-life experience in Japan. (These are not the same brain-cells I had in my past-life in Japan, and it makes a big difference.)

"Sorry but why would a non Christian have to defend themselves against Christians? Do you just mean the 'you are going to hell' bit?"​

--> Yes. Christians think that their faith gives them the right to terrorize non-Christians. I would say that, several times a year, someone's house or business is burned down in the world merely because they are Christian. And, you have no idea how many times I have personally listened to stories of Christians harrassing non-Christians.

Have you seen the movie Inherit the Wind? This is a perfect example of what I am talking about.

Inherit the Wind - Movie Review and Sounds

This film is a must-see movie for everyone interested in comparative religions. I think it is a perfect example of what I am talking about.

"I would say fight bigotry wherever you find it. By keping such things secret we are encouraging the bigotry imo."​

--> It is a two-edged sword. Some people say we should not fight hate with hate. One of my favorite Buddhist quotes is, "Some people receive injury, but return kindness." Many Buddhists say we should act this way, when we receive hatefullness from Christians. Sometimes, I counsel people to cut obnoxious Christian relatives out of their life. (Just recently, I heard from a young adult who had been thrown out into the street by her parents because she refused to remain a Christian.) I always counsel such people to walk away, avoid hating in return, and never look back.

"What you call the Absolute I call Allah and we agree about how much we know of Him."​

--> No, this is a common misconception. Allah is the Creator (The "Son"), and is different than the Absolute. The word Darkness is used in Genesis in the Bible to symbolize the Absolute (although I do not know about such symbology in the Quran).

"I have been sharing our discussion with my mother and we have decided she is a Theosophist, although she has never heard the term. Her beliefs are so in line with what you are sharing with me."​

--> That is great to hear. Perhaps she can post a comment or two here on the Forum? I can also suggest several online books, if she is so interested. Here is a nice, short, beginning book called At the Feet of the Master.

(Online)
Modern Theosophy: At The Feet of the Master, Alcyone

(Hardcopy)


Quest Books

"Utterly and absolutely untrue regarding the Quran...."​

--> Does the Quran say infidels should be killed?

 

[taijasi]

Re: Theosophy: Can we agree that tormenting people for all time is wrong no matter w

I dunno about killing ... but the persecutions and oppression, which have gone on for hundreds (or rather, thousands) of years in the name of religion and of a wrathful `god' ... such would certainly qualify as torment, I'd say.

It doesn't really matter what we're trying to scapegoat another person, or people for - in this case, the choice of a homosexual lifestyle, harming none - there is no justification for the persecution and oppression which people somehow think their god desires from them.

I shudder, and I cringe, to think of the rude awakening that plenty of folks are in for, when they discover that ... this was not quite what `God' was expecting of them, or hoping to see, once they `got religion,' or discovered their spiritual calling, or whatever.

It's the same kind of sick, delusional reasoning (actually, lack thereof), which makes a Muslim extremist believe that Allah is going to reward him with x number of virgins for y number of infidels delivered to Allah's doorstep via pure murder. Fanaticism leaves little room for cool-headedness ...

And I know that's not how you'd prefer people to understand the meaning of jihad, Muslimwoman ... thus I know that if I claimed Christianity as my faith, I'd be equally outraged to see how some people have similarly taken a few Biblical passages, here & there, which suit them - and instead of seeking to follow in the Master's footsteps, have just used another Holy Book to justify their hate, fear, paranoia and sense of separativeness.

This is not Christianity, this is not Islam, and it is certainly not what is taught by Theosophy.

As has been pointed out, Theosophy teaches, on a firm foundation (based upon direct observation, rather than speculation), that those who insist on ignoring the dictates of their own Conscience (the Voice of the Higher Self, or Soul), must face up with the consequences - according to the Law of Sowing and Reaping (Karma) ... not so much just in an afterlife, but also in their own subsequent lifetime(s), until the originating cause of their misery is balanced, and the appropriates lessons [have been] learned.

The Master of Masters taught this [Doctrine of Rebirth, and of Cause & Effect] when He walked upon the Earth, though it is admitted that His doctrines were altered - and misrepresented - even before His original 3-yr Ministry was abruptly and prematurely ended. The people would not hear Him then, just as many will not hear Him now.

 

[Nick the Pilot]

~~(='.'=)~~

"Ditto Scripture ..."​

--> It does not matter what Scripture says. These things are happening, and that is all that matters.

There is a concept called group karma. Unfortunately, all Christians will have to suffer bad karma due to what these Christian mainiacs are doing. The sad thing is, most Christians do not even see it coming. Their inaction will haunt them in the end.

 

[Nick the Pilot]

~~(='.'=)~~

Andrew, you said,

"...there is no justification for the persecution and oppression which people somehow think their god desires from them."
​

--> The funny thing is, they will reap what they sew. I am quite sure people who persecute will be reborn as people who are persecuted. That is fair, isn't it?