Mass in Latin again

Thomas; +++ Perhaps it is timely to inform you that I can go on a bit ... Also that my towering intellect is only surpassed by my rugged good looks said:
Hi Mr. T

Do you mean to say that there are two of us in the world with this problem?

Even though we've had our past differences in discussions here, your perspective and knowledge is always appreciated by me. So glad the beat goes on, because after all, we are all pursuing the emotionally-based oneness that we were taught to seek by the Master.

After all is said and done...love is the answer.

flow....:)
 
Hi Flow, we're a rare breed, aren't we? Always a pleasure, sometimes an exasperation ... and vice versa ...

The real doozie is me and Andrew ... Andrew and I? ... He is the Irresistable Force, I am the Immovable Object ... or vice versa ... technically we can't both exist in the same timespace continuum simultaneously ... but we do ... isn't nature wonderful?

Anyways ...

... get the hence, sirrah, to the discussion of 'the semantics of religious experience' in the philosophy phorum, your input is required, toot sweet!

(the 'vice versa' repetition is from '1066 and all that', a wonderfully funny little book, and should always be said in italics)

Thomas
 
I've spoke to a number of my Catholic friends (half of my son's scout troop is Catholic...hence our need to get up at o dark thirty on Sunday mornings from campouts so they can make it to mass)

Their understanding is that they must attend at least one mass a week in Latin... Many of the kids take Latin...even the Protestant boys...I would think it would be informative and enjoyable to see it in Latin in different areas of the world...a commonality that they would know despite the language of the land...

Needless to say this doesn't affect all the Catholics...only the ones that toe the line....we have some that really have issues when we don't make it back from camp...we need to go so far away for them to get some special dispensation....I surely don't understand it all.

All I know is every Sunday I want to be at church somewhere...not because I have to...but because I enjoy it!

And I wouldn't mind the latin....but would hate it if someone said I have to....superiority issues I suppose....
 
Lol Mr. T. :D The scariest thing is that worst offender is in seminary studying to be a priest!

Yer-s-e ... if I were being a tad bumptious I might observe that certain American seminaries could do with a couple of semesters from yours truly when he's a DD.

I remember reading (and watching) The Exorcist when it was around, and there's a joke in the movie/book (?) about a Jesuit seminarian going to see his Spiritual Director, because he has a problem ... he believes in the Incarnation.

A joke in a movie OK, but it reflects what was going on in the US at the time ...

+++

Actually, I think I have a pretty good argument that would have enabled Henry VIII to secure a divorce from Catherine of Aragon within the context of Canon Law! Troble was he had already insisted that Rome 'bend the rules' to let the marriage go forward, so they were hardly inclinded to 'bend the rules' to let him out of it — no-one likes to carry the can for someone else twice!

Rome couldn't figure out why he just didn't ignore his wife, and bed whoever else he wanted, like all the other monarchs did. By the time the whole sorry mess came to light, both sides had dug themselves in too far to dig themselves out again.

Thomas
 
hi Wil —

Their understanding is that they must attend at least one mass a week in Latin...

Confused about this, have 'they' always said Mass in Latin?

In Vatican II, the vernacular Mass was brought in alongside the Tridentine, and the way the Mass was celebrated was substantially altered, to make it 'more accessible' to the laity.

Many took this to mean the Latin Mass was outlawed, and in many places it effectively was — restrictions against it were imposed, and priests had to get diocesan permission to celebrate the Latin Rite. I used to drive half way across London to attend a Latin Mass.

All Pope Benedict has done is lifted the restriction. That's all. Now priests are free to choose, whereas before they had to ask permission. In the UK Cardinal Cormac Murphy-O'Connor has informed the Pope that there is already adequate presentation of the Latin Mass (some might dispute that) and that no changes will be effected.

Thomas
 
hi Wil —



Confused about this, have 'they' always said Mass in Latin?

In Vatican II, the vernacular Mass was brought in alongside the Tridentine, and the way the Mass was celebrated was substantially altered, to make it 'more accessible' to the laity.

Many took this to mean the Latin Mass was outlawed, and in many places it effectively was — restrictions against it were imposed, and priests had to get diocesan permission to celebrate the Latin Rite. I used to drive half way across London to attend a Latin Mass.

All Pope Benedict has done is lifted the restriction. That's all. Now priests are free to choose, whereas before they had to ask permission. In the UK Cardinal Cormac Murphy-O'Connor has informed the Pope that there is already adequate presentation of the Latin Mass (some might dispute that) and that no changes will be effected.

Thomas
I'll have to ask again...the word I got when inquired was that their were a number of masses one could attend during the week...at some bigger churches downtown DC there are numerous masses every day of the week (morning, lunch, afterwork etc..to assist with the commuters) I've stopped in a few times over the years..as I understand it there are schedules as to whether the mass is in Latin or not... and it was optional prior but now one mass a week must be in Latin...I'll be at the troop meeting tonight and see if I can get some more clarification...
 
Hi Thomas...Yes I agree wholeheartedly. You, I Andrew, and all of the other brothers and sisters who post here and are genuinely interested in what others hold to be true...whether there is agreement or not...could best be defined as "forces of nature".

It is all also an experiment and exercise in love IMHO.

flow....;)
 
OK, despite recent appearances, I am usually quite even tempered (three daughters, need to be), robust (three black belts in classical Japanese swordsmanship) and good-humoured (despite a secret wish to turn into a curmudgeon in my autumn years).

3 daughters, wow, your nerve endings must be raw. You are welcome to be a grumpy old man anytime.

The only shortcoming is my failure to ask questions in return.

Absolutely no need, I started the thread to discuss a certain issue in the Catholic Church, not talk about Islam.

Ahh, 'allegedly' ... to be honest, I had never heard that quote. I've had a look round, and can offer the following:

I was very careful to put the word allegedly in, as I know how chinese whispers work. Thank you for the links, it seems some quotes about myths are in fact myths themselves, of course we shall never know the truth - that is the problem with history, the past is lost to us.

It does though leave me with another question. It is my understanding that the Pope is G-d's representative on earth and is it not said he can communicate directly with G-d (or is that another myth?). Yet, these men are precisely that just "men". Pope Leo X doesn't sound like he was a paragon of virtue, so how does all of this play out in reality? How do you reconcile the idea of the Pope being G-d's representative and also being a fallable man?

Also, how does a man that is seen as "not deeply spiritual" become Pope? Is it a political decision at times? (Please don't think I am being rude, I am the first to admit that a number of Muslim scholars are very political animals). I suppose it does beg the question - so why do we follow them?

but if anything, it would appear he was one of those bankers who assumes that all the money in the bank is his.

This has always been something that I find difficult about the Vatican. If the stories are to be believed, the Vatican is rich on a scale that makes the World Bank look like the corner shop. So how does the Vatican explain the luxuries of the Vatican City and sitting on all of those assets when people are starving in the world? (same can be said for Mecca of course, it is an issue I have with all organised religion, including my own).

On the Perennialists, might I mention Martin Lings? (well there, I just have):

a convert from Catholicism to Sufism.

a convert from Anglican to Greek Orthodoxy, and thence to Sufism

I have to say that I am rather drawn to Perennialist ideas, I just can't get to grips with rejecting anything modern just because it is new. I do not feel that G-d intended humankind to stagnate. I think the attraction has to come from my desire to find a place in my faith where I am not told to reject or condemn people from other faiths.

How interesting, following our discussions on the mystery of Mass, that 2 such men would convert to Sufism. Perhaps there is a thread of mystery running through our faiths that draws some people toward this side of worship?

Wasn't Guenon a free mason for some time? Seem to remember reading that somewhere but may have misread.

He moved to Cairo, where he lived quietly in a backstreet, his neighbours unaware that he was a Sufi Sheik and considered a world authority on traditional metaphysics.

I can't explain it but I wanted to cry with joy when I read this. Now there is a humble man that has found G-d. I wish I could find that level of ease with myself and the world around me.

I must also mention another Perennialist, Marco Pallis, a Greek convert to Tibetan Buddhism, who was instrumental in my recovery of faith in Catholicism.

{Sally grins from ear to ear and has warm fuzzy feeling}.

Okay very rude and personal question, so feel free to totally ignore me. How do you reconcile in your mind, the fact that this person, a non Catholic, helped you to recover your faith, yet that faith says that he will be damned for eternity?

I am afraid I simply do not accept that G-d behaves in this way 'there is only one path and everyone else burns in hell'. That is not the image of G-d I love. The G-d I love and worship puts us on different paths, perhaps to test our metal, and then welcomes every creature that walked their given path. Perhaps I am simply nieve?

Perhaps it is timely to inform you that I can go on a bit ...

Hee, hee, perhaps you have met your match then.

oh, and I tell lies.

Well I knew that, you are a man after all. :p

Salaam
Sally
 
It is my understanding that the Pope is G-d's representative on earth and is it not said he can communicate directly with G-d (or is that another myth?).

I've half a mind to email that straight to the Vatican, and would put money on the reply being "I wish!"

From the catechism of the Catholic Church Paragraphs 880:
'When Christ instituted the Twelve, "he constituted [them] in the form of a college or permanent assembly, at the head of which he placed Peter, chosen from among them." Just as "by the Lord's institution, St. Peter and the rest of the apostles constitute a single apostolic college, so in like fashion the Roman Pontiff, Peter's successor, and the bishops, the successors of the apostles, are related with and united to one another." '

'The Pope, Bishop of Rome and Peter's successor, "is the perpetual and visible source and foundation of the unity both of the bishops and of the whole company of the faithful." "For the Roman Pontiff, by reason of his office as Vicar of Christ, and as pastor of the entire Church has full, supreme, and universal power over the whole Church, a power which he can always exercise unhindered."

"This college, in so far as it is composed of many members, is the expression of the variety and universality of the People of God; and of the unity of the flock of Christ, in so far as it is assembled under one head."

Your next question should be apoubt 'papal infallibility'

Vatican II explains infallibility: "Although the individual bishops do not enjoy the prerogative of infallibility, they can nevertheless proclaim Christ’s doctrine infallibly. This is so, even when they are dispersed around the world, provided that while maintaining the bond of unity among themselves and with Peter’s successor, and while teaching authentically on a matter of faith or morals, they concur in a single viewpoint as the one which must be held conclusively. This authority is even more clearly verified when, gathered together in an ecumenical council, they are teachers and judges of faith and morals for the universal Church. Their definitions must then be adhered to with the submission of faith" (Lumen Gentium 25).

Infallibility belongs in a special way to the pope as head of the bishops (Matt. 16:17–19; John 21:15–17). As Vatican II remarked, it is a charism the pope "enjoys in virtue of his office, when, as the supreme shepherd and teacher of all the faithful, who confirms his brethren in their faith (Luke 22:32), he proclaims by a definitive act some doctrine of faith or morals. Therefore his definitions, of themselves, and not from the consent of the Church, are justly held irreformable, for they are pronounced with the assistance of the Holy Spirit, an assistance promised to him in blessed Peter."

How do you reconcile the idea of the Pope being G-d's representative and also being a fallable man?
I think the above answers.

Also, how does a man that is seen as "not deeply spiritual" become Pope? Is it a political decision at times? (Please don't think I am being rude, I am the first to admit that a number of Muslim scholars are very political animals). I suppose it does beg the question - so why do we follow them?
A good question. Should the pope be a mystic? I don't think so. A saint? Well, a nice idea, but the seat might be empty more often than not. Of deep spirituality? Yes, but then how do we 'read' that? He needs to be an administrator, and often the two don't go together. I happen to think Benedict is a man of profound spiritual insight, but no-one's interested in reporting that, so no-one knows. He's just published a book, 'Jesus of Nazareth', which is a profound meditation on the nature of faith, and the calling to be Christian. Not a word in the media, other than to criticise the technical aspects of the book. Benedict is the first serious heavyweight theologian to occupy the Seat of Peter for a long, long time. He's a philosopher first and foremost, that's why he's not liked.

In a recent interview with Tony Blair (a Catholic priest has been a regular at Downing Street for the years, holding a private service for the family — TB's wife is Catholic, and he is expected to convert), Pope Benedict didn't do his predeccessor's 'warm and cuddly' but took the politician to task over a number of issues. Likewise Benedict has recognised Islam as upholding the sacred dignity of the human person, and has called on all traditions to join in protection of the human being — but he has also said privately to Islamic leaders that they should be more forthright in the condemnation of violence. Pope Benedict has a habit of samying waht people might rather not hear.

We've had good popes ... and bad popes ... but the Faith endures ... I am faithful to the faith first, then the pope because of my faith.

There was a time when the Pope sat in Avignon, not Rome (politics). (There was a time when there were three popes in competition - megapolitiks!) St Catherine of Siena, a Doctor of the Church, used to roast the Pope in Avignon soundly for his faults, and told him in no uncertain terms to get his backside back to Rome.

This has always been something that I find difficult about the Vatican. If the stories are to be believed, the Vatican is rich on a scale that makes the World Bank look like the corner shop. So how does the Vatican explain the luxuries of the Vatican City and sitting on all of those assets when people are starving in the world? (same can be said for Mecca of course, it is an issue I have with all organised religion, including my own).
Well i don't know how much money the Vatican has, but probably nowhere near as much as everyone likes to think. Then I don't know how much it costs to run an outfit for a couple of billion customers ... it's out of my league, I'm afraid. If that sounds like a cop-out ... it probably is.

I have to say that I am rather drawn to Perennialist ideas, I just can't get to grips with rejecting anything modern just because it is new.
Perennialists don't reject the modern, or the new ... rather they seek the eternally and transcendentally true ... ideas which tend to have been around a long time, and stated more explicitly by 'traditional' religious cultures, rather than by secular idealism.

I do not feel that G-d intended humankind to stagnate. I think the attraction has to come from my desire to find a place in my faith where I am not told to reject or condemn people from other faiths.
So do I.

How interesting, following our discussions on the mystery of Mass, that 2 such men would convert to Sufism. Perhaps there is a thread of mystery running through our faiths that draws some people toward this side of worship?

I think so. There is one view that says the word 'sufi' comes from the Arabic word for 'wool', and described the woolen garmets worn by the Desert Fathers — the Christian monastic tradition wa born in Egypian sands. But I don't know it that's one tradition trying to 'out-do' another.

I am also aware that the practice of theology in Europe in the 18/19th centuries was dreadfully dry and nit-pickingly academic. Sufism would have held a great attraction, but I mean no disrespect to Islam by that comment. Guénon, for example, was deeply immersed in simple Moslem practice.

Wasn't Guenon a free mason for some time? Seem to remember reading that somewhere but may have misread.
Guénon was into everything in a restless search for spiritual peace, until he found his home in Islam. He was an authority on Sanskrit and hailed by Brahmins as the only Europeans who truly understood the Vedanta.

Guénon had a mind like a super-power laser, nothing escaped him, and nothing escaped the rigour of his metaphysical investigations. He wrote a masterful piece on infinitessimal calculus, for example. Because of his honesty and rigour, he became something of a bete noir in the salons of Paris, the home and springboard of so much esoterica — most of it fantasy, much of it fraudulent ... and invariably, as he would demonstrate ruthlessly, founded on ill-conceived or frankly fallacious ideas.

It is axiomatic amongst Perennialists that one must be under the cover of an authentic religious tradition if one is serious. Doesn't matter which, and any one will do, but get in, and get on with it. Another reason why they are poo-poo'd by the New Age — but then the New Age has precious little idea of the metaphysical/mystical/esoteric aspects of the word 'tradition' anyway, anti-authoritarianism and personal freedom being axiomatic to their thinking.

I can't explain it but I wanted to cry with joy when I read this. Now there is a humble man that has found G-d. I wish I could find that level of ease with myself and the world around me.
On his deathbed he smiled, looked up and muttered "Allah!" as he made his transitus. It brings me to tears as I think about it. Possibly an apocryphal tale, but as his family never made any move to profit one penny by his name or reputation, I somehow doubt it.

Okay very rude and personal question, so feel free to totally ignore me. How do you reconcile in your mind, the fact that this person, a non Catholic, helped you to recover your faith, yet that faith says that he will be damned for eternity?
Because Catholic doctrine doesn't say that.

Catholic doctrine says anyone who loves God, no matter how they understand Him, will come to know Him (within reason — there's a lot of odd notions about the love of God out there).

Catholic doctrine says the Church is a visible witness and testimony of God's love for His creature. It is a signpost, it is not the destination. It is a Way, and a Way without equal (allow me to say that — as I will allow anyone to say such of their own tradition), so it exists in the world to show people the Way, but it does not decide who's saved and who isn't — but it does state, with great care, insight, wisdom and precision, what the Way given by Jesus Christ is, and what it is not; what it comprises, and what it does not comprise.

Thus anyone is free to believe anything they like about God generally, but if they are going to say this or that about Christianity particularly, then they will come under scrutiny, and rightly so. Much as we'd love to, it is not for you and I to invent Christ or His teachings as we go along, as suits ourselves. We cannot pick and choose — that is the very definition of heresy 'to choose' — a tendency to emphasise the bits we like, and play down the bits we don't.

It believes that God speaks to all, in many and various ways, but in these days has chosen to speak to man directly, through His Incarnate Son. The Church's job is to make sure His words are transmitted correctly. That's what Catholics believe, anyway. You're saved too, btw, I've already had a word...

On the other topic:
Marco Pallis never told me anything about my tradition that was not 'in plain sight', but he gave me a key to unlock its meaning — traditional symbolism. Sounds like nothing, but actually modernism and the Enlightenment has reduced symbolism to signs and signifiers ... it means a lot more than that. Modernism bangs on and on about whether Jesus walked on the water, or the disciples assumed He was when He was walking along the shoreline ... or a submerged sandbar ... it never crosses their minds to ask what the thing means ... why did He walk on the water, and why did the disciples bother recording it? Itg's a desperate attempt to explain away the bits that a post-modern rationality cannot assent to, without asking whether a post-modern rationality might actually be defective, and assumes that all pre-modern minds were naive, superstitious, and somewhat foolish...

It was the Perennialists who introduced me to Neoplatonism ... it was the Church, once I had the scent, who introduced me to Patristics (writings of the 2nd-7th centuries). It's like finding a door in the house where you live, which when opened, reveals a treasure chest. "Why didn't you tell me?" I exclaim. "Well," came the reply, "People aren't interested, so we stopped bothering them. And you never asked."
I've been in heaven ever since.

If I may: I once did a lecture on 'Symbolism in the Christian Mysteries' — a talk on the Temple as symbol of the Center in all traditions — the Kaaba in your own — and the particular symbolism of Peter and John racing to the empty tomb (John 20) ... I spoke first because I was the amateur on the day. After me came a Greek Orthodox priest. "Before I begin my paper," he said, "I would like to comment on the previous speaker..." and I thought, oh dear, I'm for it now... "Symbolism is a very powerful presence in the Orthodox Church," he said, "and I am delighted to hear ... " Phew.

I am afraid I simply do not accept that G-d behaves in this way 'there is only one path and everyone else burns in hell'. That is not the image of G-d I love. The G-d I love and worship puts us on different paths, perhaps to test our metal, and then welcomes every creature that walked their given path. Perhaps I am simply nieve?
No. I think along the same lines ... but I do not believe we can make up our path as we go along.

The Bible does not say 'God loves', the Bible says "God is love". He who loves, loves in God, and with God, whether he or she knows it, and when they love in God, God lives in them ... that's what love is ... love is Divine.

Pax tecum

Thomas
 
I once did a lecture on 'Symbolism in the Christian Mysteries' — a talk on the Temple as symbol of the Center in all traditions — the Kaaba in your own — and the particular symbolism of Peter and John racing to the empty tomb.

I don't suppose you have this available for perusal, do you? I would be interested in reading it, as I'm going through the Tabernacle and all it's symbolism in the bible study I'm teaching.
 
I've half a mind to email that straight to the Vatican, and would put money on the reply being "I wish!"

wa aleykum salaam wr wb Thomas

LOL. I just love reading your posts, between the laughing and frowning I get a really good facial workout.

Your next question should be apoubt 'papal infallibility'

Well it would have been if you had given me half a chance. Okay so without being rude, the Pope is what I would call a Caliph?

Also, your first comment was that the Vatican would reply "I wish", yet Vatican II is effectively saying that the Pope cannot possibly be wrong because he is guided by the Holy Spirit. That would suggest direct intervention by G-d Himself, would it not?

Likewise Benedict has recognised Islam as upholding the sacred dignity of the human person, and has called on all traditions to join in protection of the human being

That is the first I have heard about this, so perhaps the media also works in mysterious ways. Gosh, what would they write about if religions stopped fighting?!

but he has also said privately to Islamic leaders that they should be more forthright in the condemnation of violence. Pope Benedict has a habit of samying waht people might rather not hear.
It is way beyond time that somebody spoke out and good on the Pope for saying so. I do get the feeling that tact is not the Pope's strongest point though, a weakness I also suffer from but personally I would like to see more world leaders that lean less on spin and diplomacy and more toward speaking out and clearly too, nothing like a good plain bit of speaking. I have had a recurring dream for years that G-d allows me to take all religious and political leaders into a locked room, where they are unable to tell a lie and I force them to verbally fight it out and plan world peace, before anyone is permitted to leave the room. (I know, I have delusions of grandeur in my sleep ).

Perennialists don't reject the modern, or the new ... rather they seek the eternally and transcendentally true ... ideas which tend to have been around a long time, and stated more explicitly by 'traditional' religious cultures, rather than by secular idealism.

I understand that in Guenon's book The Crisis of the Modern World he states that traditionalist thinking is opposed by modern life (technology, morals, etc). Does he not call on the intellectual elite to either return the west to traditionalism or at least embrace some of the Eastern ways? Perhaps I am misreading what it is he is calling for, in my desire to keep hold of my laptop? :p

That said, I do agree that the west is now virtually morally bankrupt, with it's persuit of materialism and desire to change the world to it's way of living. I also agree that the west is in a dark age. How strange that they now believe themselves to be so enlightened.

I think so. There is one view that says the word 'sufi' comes from the Arabic word for 'wool', and described the woolen garmets worn by the Desert Fathers — the Christian monastic tradition wa born in Egypian sands. But I don't know it that's one tradition trying to 'out-do' another.

This is certainly my understanding of the origin of the word sufi, the root word is soof and as you say means wool. However, when you apply logic the story may lose some merit. Yes wool was seen as a plain and simple material, it was readily available but to wear wool in a desert would have been unbearable, particularly the smell, even if you could bear the heat. So I doubt that the desert fathers were particularly known for wearing it, perhaps selling it?

Guénon, for example, was deeply immersed in simple Moslem practice.

If you go back to the basics of Islam, the Quran and leave out the centuries of 'interpretation' and political wranglings, Islam is very simplistic. You can see the thread of truth running through all of the religions, going right back as far as our history goes. It is just a shame that mankind is so power hungry and has so abused such a gift from G-d.

On his deathbed he smiled, looked up and muttered "Allah!" as he made his transitus. It brings me to tears as I think about it. Possibly an apocryphal tale, but as his family never made any move to profit one penny by his name or reputation, I somehow doubt it.

I should think it highly probable that this would be his final word. One thing that becomes very clear in Islam is the process of death and the meaningless attempt to cling to life. When passing your final thoughts should be of Allah, not of the world you are leaving behind.

Catholic doctrine says anyone who loves God, no matter how they understand Him, will come to know Him (within reason — there's a lot of odd notions about the love of God out there).

Okay now I am truly confused and also rather surprised. Having always been told this means, will come to know him through Jesus (pbuh) as the son of G-d, it would suggest a requirement of being within the church of Jesus (pbuh). John 3:3 says that no one can see the kingdom of G-d unless he is born again (which I assume means through baptism). Also no one comes to the father except through the son. Again this would appear to suggest that entry into heaven is through belief in Jesus (pbuh) as the son of G-d. Please explain as this is BIG news for me and rather welcome news too.

You're saved too, btw, I've already had a word...

Gosh I wish it was that easy. :D Doesn't it terrify you, knowing one day you will stand before G-d Himself and have to answer for your deeds? It frightens the life out of me and yet also gives me a feeling of comfort (but only when I feel I am being a good girl). It is difficult to explain but the idea that for one split second I could be in the actual presence of Allah, WOW, such a warm fuzzy feeling but then I remember I will be asked about my bad deeds and I can feel my soul cowering in the corner and jibbering incoherently.

If I may: I once did a lecture on 'Symbolism in the Christian Mysteries' — a talk on the Temple as symbol of the Center in all traditions — the Kaaba in your own — and the particular symbolism of Peter and John racing to the empty tomb (John 20) ...

As with Dondi, I would love to see it if you still have a copy.

No. I think along the same lines ... but I do not believe we can make up our path as we go along.

Well, as a Muslim I believe we don't have a choice, Allah decides these things for us. We just have to follow where Allah takes us and alhamdolilla, He brought me to Islam.

Salaam, may G-d bless you in this life and the next
Sally
 
Salaam, may G-d bless you in this life and the next
Sally
Can I quote you, when my Judgement day comes?

I understand that in Guenon's book The Crisis of the Modern World he states that traditionalist thinking is opposed by modern life (technology, morals, etc). Does he not call on the intellectual elite to either return the west to traditionalism or at least embrace some of the Eastern ways? Perhaps I am misreading what it is he is calling for, in my desire to keep hold of my laptop?

Yes he does, although this does not demand a return to medievalism, as some might imply. He views modernism introduces its own problems, and that these will not be solved by more of the same, but rather a closer adherence to perennial values.

A batch of good questions, but I must prepare for an exam Saturday, and have spent too long elsewhere ... if I answer now, I won't do either us, or Him, justice. But rest assured, I'll be back!

Pax tecum,

Thomas
 
Can I quote you, when my Judgement day comes?

Of course you can, not sure it will do you any good but quote away. Hmmm, "yes I robbed a bank, murdered a few people but hey Sally said .........", nope might not do the trick. ;) Of course what might help is the desire of goodwill between people of different faiths?! :)

A batch of good questions, but I must prepare for an exam Saturday, and have spent too long elsewhere ... if I answer now, I won't do either us, or Him, justice. But rest assured, I'll be back!

Oh my goodness, best of luck with your exam. No problem, unless He has other plans for me I have plenty of time. Will look forward to your return.

Salaam
Sally
 
Okay so without being rude, the Pope is what I would call a Caliph?
Something like that. The Pope is the successor of Peter — the office that Peter was elected to.

Also, your first comment was that the Vatican would reply "I wish", yet Vatican II is effectively saying that the Pope cannot possibly be wrong because he is guided by the Holy Spirit. That would suggest direct intervention by G-d Himself, would it not?
Not Vatican II, the documents of which explain in greater detail what went before. The Doctrine of Infallibility was a pronouncement, and as such a definition, of the First Vatican Council (1870), of what has always been held to be the case in Catholicism.

Not everything the Pope says in infallible, but everything the Church decrees, within its remit, is, based on Scripture:
Matthew 16:19 "And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

To be infallible a statement must:
1: Originate from the Roman Pontiff as head of the Church.
2: That the Pontiff "speak ex cathedra" — that is, from the chair, "in the discharge of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, and by virtue of his supreme apostolic authority…."
3: "he defines"
4: "that a doctrine concerning faith or morals"
5: "must be held by the whole Church" (Pastor Aeternus, chap. 4)

So when speaking ex cathedra on matters of faith and morals, the Pontiff's word is binding, on earth and in heaven.

The Church is guided by the Holy Spirit. I don't think an ex cathedra statement has ever been made by a Pontiff without consultation with the Church — these are done by the Councils — a practice established when Paul went to see Peter in Jerusalem to decide whether one had to be a Jew prior to being a Christian, in effect whether gentiles were 'second class Christians', as it were.

Peter said no. There is plenty of gospel evidence to suggest that Jesus taught the opposite — but Jesus teaches that He transcends the Law (another sign of His divinity), for the Law of God was given to man. Man lives according to the Law. God lives according to himself.

Peter's 'no' was a doctrinal statement on faith (what it to be believed) and morals (how one should conduct oneself accordingly).

... the media also works in mysterious ways. Gosh, what would they write about if religions stopped fighting?!
They'd come up with something ... don't worry on that account!

I have had a recurring dream for years that G-d allows me to take all religious and political leaders into a locked room, where they are unable to tell a lie and I force them to verbally fight it out and plan world peace, before anyone is permitted to leave the room. (I know, I have delusions of grandeur in my sleep ).
You should read about St Catherine of Siena. She roasted the Pope soundly when she thought he was in error — but her arguments were founded on faith and the Church's teaching. She embarrased him into doing the right thing. A lesson we should learn and apply across the board, but then, no-one would want to be a politician if that was the case.

I understand that in Guenon's book The Crisis of the Modern World he states that traditionalist thinking is opposed by modern life (technology, morals, etc). Does he not call on the intellectual elite to either return the west to traditionalism or at least embrace some of the Eastern ways? Perhaps I am misreading what it is he is calling for, in my desire to keep hold of my laptop?

I don't think he was anti-technology, just its uses. The 'Eastern ways' was indeed his view that 'Oriental mertaphysics', founded on Brahminic texts, was the most explicit metaphysical doctrine stripped of contingent and relative factors. I think this an overstatement. That it is recognisably oriental renders it both relative and contingent, even if its subject matter is not ... this is the Mystery of Truth, and this is what the sacra doctrina of humanity can transmit, in an immediate and immanent fashion as cor ad cor loquitur, 'heart speaks to heart' (J. H. Newman).

That said, I do agree that the west is now virtually morally bankrupt, with it's persuit of materialism and desire to change the world to it's way of living. I also agree that the west is in a dark age. How strange that they now believe themselves to be so enlightened.
One day we will realise that the 'light' of the West is in fact the glow from a screen, probably a TV running a repeat of some crap soap opera.

This is certainly my understanding of the origin of the word sufi, the root word is soof and as you say means wool. However, when you apply logic the story may lose some merit. Yes wool was seen as a plain and simple material, it was readily available but to wear wool in a desert would have been unbearable, particularly the smell, even if you could bear the heat. So I doubt that the desert fathers were particularly known for wearing it, perhaps selling it?
I'm not sure. The School of Sufi Teaching Says: "The most widely accepted origin of the word 'Sufi' is from the Arabic word 'suf' which means 'wool', referring to a group of sincere worshippers who lived during, and shortly after, the time of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) and who became known for their tendency to wear coarse woolen clothes.

Another possible derivation of the word 'Sufi' is from the 'ahl-e-suffa' (literally, 'The People of the Bench'), a group of early muslims who lived in the first mosque at Medina in close proximity to the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). Yet another derivation is from the Arabic word, 'safa', or 'purity'."

Another souce says a woolen cloak? The view that Sufis are descended from Christian contemplatives I have read, but cannot attest to — it was a bit naughty on my part.

If you go back to the basics of Islam, the Quran and leave out the centuries of 'interpretation' and political wranglings, Islam is very simplistic. You can see the thread of truth running through all of the religions, going right back as far as our history goes. It is just a shame that mankind is so power hungry and has so abused such a gift from G-d.
It's all simple really. True love means to be aware of distinction, but not to hold it against the other. It is simple delight in another's being.

I should think it highly probable that this would be his final word. One thing that becomes very clear in Islam is the process of death and the meaningless attempt to cling to life. When passing your final thoughts should be of Allah, not of the world you are leaving behind.

Matthew 16:25 "For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it." 'For my sake' is a powerful comment. No Jew would say that, unless ...

Okay now I am truly confused and also rather surprised. Having always been told this means, will come to know him through Jesus (pbuh) as the son of G-d, it would suggest a requirement of being within the church of Jesus (pbuh). John 3:3 says that no one can see the kingdom of G-d unless he is born again (which I assume means through baptism). Also no one comes to the father except through the son. Again this would appear to suggest that entry into heaven is through belief in Jesus (pbuh) as the son of G-d. Please explain as this is BIG news for me and rather welcome news too.

Matthew again: "And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven." 16:16-17

Man does not find God — God reveals Himself to man — but even to realise the knowing implies a prior disposition towards revelation. Only man wonders about the existence of God. We can arrive at the idea of God through philosophy and reason — through ther obervation of nature, for example, although that does not constitute an empirical proof. But 'knowing' God is something else, and we believe it is only through the Spirit that we can know the Son, and the Son reveals the Father. It is only in the Spirit we can say 'Abba' or 'Allah' as one being of another. This we call the 'invisible mission' — that God works for the salvation of every living soul, and this is an interior operation. The 'visible mission' is the disclosure of Himself that God makes in human history, to humanity as a whole, and the visible presence in the world of that disclosure we call 'Church'.

The Church then does not believe that they (its members) alone are saved, because God is immanent (invisibly) in the world, and not just in the Church. But in the Church alone is the transcendant God made manifest and visible — it is a charism that only She possesses, but it does not belong to Her.

She does not own it. She preserves it, ponders it, lives it, transmits it, and in so doing calls all humanity to Herself. Sometimes she does it well, sometimes not so well ... but a poor singer does not mean its a poor song.

This was the cause of the recent upset. Pope Benedict is making a theological statement when he says that the Church is and can only be one, but philsophically underlined by the fact that if church signifies this unity, then there can only be one God, and one Church — one unity that He wills.

Others will argue that denominations speak of diversity, but this is application of metaphysical principle at the wrong level. Between the world's religions, and the world's denominations, there is diversity, but no singular aspect of which they represent in diversity. Rather this is difference — not the same thing at all.

There is diversity, of course, within each religion and denomination, but this too, too often, is not diversity but difference, and much blood spilt because of it.

The different character of the monastic charisms, for example, signify this diversity. Benedictine hospitality, Dominican preaching, Franciscan living, Jesuit learning ... and rivalry between them on matters of philosphy, is sometimes intense, but they are united in faith.

It cannot be ignored or denied in Christianity that between some denominations there are fundamental difference. Some do not believe in the Trinity, which we believe is the Revelation not just of God's will, but of Himself.

In Christian speculative theology we talk of God 'traces' or 'vestiges' present in the world, in good people, in right living, in religions, in all human endeavour towards the Good ... in Dchristian doctrine we believe that God manifested Himself to the world in Christ (the Incarnation) and in the Spirit (Pentecost), in a unique way, and one without equal.

Doesn't it terrify you, knowing one day you will stand before G-d Himself and have to answer for your deeds?
My weakness frightens me ... that I might take His love for granted.

It frightens the life out of me and yet also gives me a feeling of comfort (but only when I feel I am being a good girl).
That's an interesting phrase ... 'to frighten the life out of' ... the life is the Spirit, the life is Love, the life is God ... and the thought of it scares us (if it didn't, I suggest we're thinking about God, or ourselves, or both, the wrong way) "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom." (Proverbs 1:7)

The mosty oft used phrase in Scripture is 'fear not'.

Pax tecum,

Thomas
 
So when speaking ex cathedra on matters of faith and morals, the Pontiff's word is binding, on earth and in heaven.

Peace and Blessings Thomas

Thank you so much for your reply, learning is just so much fun and a great reminder of how little we really know. :eek: Before I start, how did your exam go? May I ask what exams you are taking?

Okay I think we can both agree that we have seen good Pope's and political (bad) Pope's over the centuries. (Please forgive me I am deliberately going to use a childish and silly example as I don't want to cause insult). So, if a Pope 756 years ago had decided on moral grounds (due to his political desires) that all women named Sally must be burned at the stake, would this then become the practice in heaven? Is there nothing that says decisions guided by the Holy Spirit are binding in heaven, whereas ones made for political desire or even through honest error (with no guidance from the Holy Spirit) are nul and void? I think that would worry me and play on my mind.

Peter said no. There is plenty of gospel evidence to suggest that Jesus taught the opposite

Forgive me Thomas, I accept what you say about Jesus (pbuh) transcending the law but surely He was aware that He was teaching mere humans and they may not understand this transcending? I accept that Peter said no but the question had been asked of him, so surely this shows that some people did not understand?

You should read about St Catherine of Siena.

I just looked her up, wow what a woman, shame she died so young (although the self mortification seems a little extreme - what is the theory behind this practice?). Her mother must have been a strong and very tired woman - 25 children :eek:. I loved this one:

she rebuked three Italian cardinals who were supporting the anti-pope, writing to them, "what made you do this? You are flowers who shed no perfume, but stench that makes the whole world reek." 2

I have sometimes wondered what it must be liked to be a world leader, with everyone fawning around you and agreeing with everything you say. I think it would be so refreshing to hear someone say you are being an idiot.

I found this very touching, it is from one of her letters to the King of France:

Oh, how the man should be ashamed who follows the teaching of the devil and his own lower nature, caring more to gain and keep the riches of this world, which are all vain, and pass like the wind, than for his soul and his neighbour! For while abiding in hate with his neighbour, he has hate by his side, since hate deprives him of divine charity. Surely he is foolish and blind, for he does not see that with the sword of hate to his neighbour he is killing himself.

This is from the same letter:

The first is, to despise the world and yourself and all its joys

Does your faith really teach you to despise the world and yourself?

I'm not sure. The School of Sufi Teaching Says: "The most widely accepted origin of the word 'Sufi' is from the Arabic word 'suf' which means 'wool', referring to a group of sincere worshippers who lived during, and shortly after, the time of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) and who became known for their tendency to wear coarse woolen clothes.

There is a large Sufi mosque in Alexandria, my husband has promised to take me to when I return to Egypt, I shall ask them about this and let you know (although I don't return for 4 months but will not forget).

It's all simple really. True love means to be aware of distinction, but not to hold it against the other. It is simple delight in another's being.

Do you think it is possible to love someone you have never met? I always delight in watching children, their laughter sounds like I imagine angels to sound, so innocent. I don't mean I enjoy watching them, I mean I really 'delight' in watching them, they touch me inside.

Only man wonders about the existence of God.

This begs the question, do other creatures wonder about G-d or do they simply already know about Him? ;) Sorry, I just think mankind has become too arrogant for his own boots and with those boots he is trampling the world.

We can arrive at the idea of God through philosophy and reason — through ther obervation of nature, for example, although that does not constitute an empirical proof.

Yes we are also taught this in Islam (feel sure you already know that though).

There is diversity, of course, within each religion and denomination, but this too, too often, is not diversity but difference, and much blood spilt because of it.

Amen to that statement. How can anyone believe that G-d will be pleased by this behaviour?

It cannot be ignored or denied in Christianity that between some denominations there are fundamental difference. Some do not believe in the Trinity, which we believe is the Revelation not just of God's will, but of Himself.

But surely if you believe this then it would follow that this was for all of mankind and those that do not believe it are on the wrong path?

"The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom." (Proverbs 1:7)

Gosh, then I must be really wise, as I am really scared. :p

The mosty oft used phrase in Scripture is 'fear not'.

Well that is easy to say but not so easy to do. How could one not be afraid of G-d. Actually, now I come to type it, it is not G-d that I am afraid of, it is myself, my weaknesses, my sins and my inability to answer for them. Oops.

Salaam
Sally
 
To be infallible a statement must:
1: Originate from the Roman Pontiff as head of the Church.
2: That the Pontiff "speak ex cathedra" — that is, from the chair, "in the discharge of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, and by virtue of his supreme apostolic authority…."
3: "he defines"
4: "that a doctrine concerning faith or morals"
5: "must be held by the whole Church" (Pastor Aeternus, chap. 4)

So when speaking ex cathedra on matters of faith and morals, the Pontiff's word is binding, on earth and in heaven.

The Church is guided by the Holy Spirit.
infallible? there is too much ego, its about gods word not the infalliblity of the pope or pontiff or whoever. they are just a person like you and me, we all fall short of the glory of god. the difference is they have more responsibility and accountability since they chose to teach the word of god, just like my pastor or that child's sunday school teacher. the holy spirit does work thru the christian church, but that's in generalities. that does not mean people still don't speak in error, or have the ability to lead others astray--we are still human. antichrist comes from within a group a believers, otherwise they would not be a wolf in sheeps in clothing. so listen to the words they say and let it ring true to the gospel, and think about what is being said, dont just accept it because of a persons status. a pontiffs word is only binding in heaven, just like my word is binding in heaven if i repeat that which has already been said in scripture such as, god created the heavens and the earth. all the latin scripture that was spoken by people in expensive robes and gold jewelry to a mass of people when no one understood it and no one was saved by it fell short. a homeless person that remembered god and before he died asked god to forgive him because someone gave him a dollar once and said God loves you in a language he understood, well that homeless person is now saved, and all the angels in heaven celebrate when a lost sheep is found. these are the words that last forever, and is evident in the eternal life of the one that was saved thru gods word.. its about the delivery that can be understood, not about ego, status, and infallibility.
 
to speak of latin mass...

pre about 1956, all mass was in latin... ppl felt apart from it, like it was a secret society, so they changed it to the langua franca... anyhow... where I live I am lucky enough to be in travelling distance to a church that still says mass in latin, once a week, they are catholics, too, again, bonus, and its fabulous... completely different... I have, of course, only been once, but yes, if it was nearer to my house I might be more likely to go...

catholicism is a great religion, in the main, and for a saintly type its great- plenty of avenues to save the world, help the poor, heal the sick, but unfortunately most modern catholics can see the church is in a sorry mess, even though they still support it...

i'm not the type that goes to mass every week, so maybe my opinion doesn't count...

but part of the reason ppl convert to other faiths is that their own is not enough, or appears flawed, and I think until catholicism becomes more catholic that catholicism is doomed... I had hoped a new pope would move the church on, but no, ratzinger is making things move backwards, and retrogression is never a good thing... and yes, I am waiting for him to die, and hoping that we get a better pope, but I don't think there's anything wrong with that. It not like I'm saying I will do the job myself, I'm just saying- hurry up and die, so we can get a better pope... in much the same way, I shall rejoice and go drinking when maggie thatcher dies... is that so wrong?
 
unfortunately most modern catholics can see the church is in a sorry mess, even though they still support it...

I think we can all say that for our various religions Francis.

I think until catholicism becomes more catholic that catholicism is doomed...

Can you expand on this for me Francis, I am afraid I know nothing of Catholocism, so dont really know how the Catholic Church could be more Catholic?

and yes, I am waiting for him to die, and hoping that we get a better pope, but I don't think there's anything wrong with that. It not like I'm saying I will do the job myself, I'm just saying- hurry up and die, so we can get a better pope... in much the same way, I shall rejoice and go drinking when maggie thatcher dies... is that so wrong?

Perhaps what people don't like is that you are wishing another human being dead? Perhaps we all think these things but it is rare that anyone openly expresses it. I understand what you are saying, that you want time to move on quickly in the hope that the next Pope is more to your liking but I am not sure it is very nice to wish anyone dead for that to happen, that does sound an odd thing for a person of faith to say imo.
 
Before I start, how did your exam go? May I ask what exams you are taking?
It's a BA in Catholic Theology (what else?) And the concensus is that the exams were tough.

So, if a Pope 756 years ago had decided on moral grounds (due to his political desires) that all women named Sally must be burned at the stake, would this then become the practice in heaven?
Well I could write screeds on this — but the short answer is that a 'heretic pope', that is one who can be shown to have deviated from the true faith, is thereby and therefore not a pope, and the Chair of Peter is thus vacant, the term being sede vacantes.

This has in fact happened. The pope, as a person, is not infallible, nor is his every utterance, and even something promulgated as doctrine can be withdrawn if it can be demonstrated that the pope was in error.

To assume otherwise would be tantamount to putting God to the test. If we said, 'who shall we elect as Pope?' and the answer is 'it doesn't matter, anyone will do, cos the Holy Spirit's looking after the shop and will guarantee there's no mistakes' then that is not faith, that is sheer recklessness along the lines of crossing the road without looking ... and Jesus' temptation in the wilderness was on just this point ... so we don't put God to the test, we act in good faith, but like the wise virgins, we have contingency plans in place.

Is there nothing that says decisions guided by the Holy Spirit are binding in heaven, whereas ones made for political desire or even through honest error (with no guidance from the Holy Spirit) are nul and void?
Sadly there is no litmus test to determine when the Holy Spirit is and is not active, as it were.

The 'test' then, is does what is being promulgated comply with what has gone before? Does what is being promulgated require us to believe something different to what was previously believed?

Contrary to common opinion, there is nothing 'new' in Catholicism, only a greater depth and precision of explanation.

This is the rule of faith, and this is why Catholicism insists that they (and the Orthodox) stand alone as trnasmitting the faith as preached by the Apostles. Martin Luther, for example, famously disposed of one book of Scripture as 'a right strawey epistle' because it didn't agree with his own doctrine, therefore Luther is right, Scripture is wrong.

This is why we bang on about tradition and continuity.

Forgive me Thomas, I accept what you say about Jesus (pbuh) transcending the law but surely He was aware that He was teaching mere humans and they may not understand this transcending? I accept that Peter said no but the question had been asked of him, so surely this shows that some people did not understand?
Indeed it does, and that's the point. Peter was an Apostle, and like his brothers was in receipt of Holy Spirit at the foundation of the Church (at Pentecost). Only the Church can claim that charism — not only being the chosen ones to receive the Word of God, but the chosen ones with regard to its correct interpretation and transmission.

Such being the case, where a question arises, the Church is the best bet for the correct interpretation.

Today people claim that anybody can read a bit of Scripture, and declare Christ to be whatever or whoever they like, and they are right, because they are infallible when it comes to such matters. No-one can tell anyone that how they interpret Scripture might be wrong.

This is a post-modern interpretation of protestant theology of Kant et al, but if Kant were arounf today, he would be horrified.

Does your faith really teach you to despise the world and yourself?
Of course not, but Catherine was making a point. Again, what she said is not infallible, nor is it binding, but it is something to ponder and contemplate —if, as we do believe, that 'God so loved the world He gave His only Son', then why should we despise what God so evidently loves?

Do you think it is possible to love someone you have never met? I always delight in watching children, their laughter sounds like I imagine angels to sound, so innocent. I don't mean I enjoy watching them, I mean I really 'delight' in watching them, they touch me inside.
I know. But I have also heard the angelic laughter of children as they were torturing an animal to death ... we have to beware of sentimentality.

This begs the question, do other creatures wonder about G-d or do they simply already know about Him? ;) Sorry, I just think mankind has become too arrogant for his own boots and with those boots he is trampling the world.
Sentimentalism again, I think. No. Animals don't wonder about God.

But surely if you believe this then it would follow that this was for all of mankind and those that do not believe it are on the wrong path?
Yes I do believe the way is for all mankind, but I do not necessarily believe another path is 'wrong'.

now I come to type it, it is not G-d that I am afraid of, it is myself, my weaknesses, my sins and my inability to answer for them. Oops.
See? You're wiser than you think.

Pax tecum,

Thomas
 
pre about 1956, all mass was in latin... ppl felt apart from it, like it was a secret society, so they changed it to the langua franca...
I think the numbers say something else. Take into account the upcry that came out when the mass in the vernacular came in? We have had no greater case of Catholics leaving the Church than on that occasion.

But the 'liberal do-gooders' who pushed the decision to its ultimate limit and effectively banned the Latin Mass — and it was the liberal element, the conservatives wanted no change — insisted they knew what was for the best, and that the people best shut up and do what they're told ... because they know what's best ...

but unfortunately most modern catholics can see the church is in a sorry mess, even though they still support it...
Indeed, and like everything else (politics, environment, ecology, etc.,) are often quite happy to sit on their arses and expect someone else to sort it out ... 'armchair critics' I think is the phrase, to which my reply is, either stand up or shut up.

I do not think the institution is faultless, nor blameless, but I do not post my thoughts and feelings on the matter here, where they will do no good whatsoever (and perhaps harm) ... I address my complaint to the people i have a complaint with...

... the reason ppl convert to other faiths is that their own is not enough, or appears flawed, and I think until catholicism becomes more catholic that catholicism is doomed... I had hoped a new pope would move the church on, but no, ratzinger is making things move backwards, and retrogression is never a good thing...
well we would say this is a modernist dictat and it's wrong. The Church does not need to change, the Church needs to stay the same as the thing Christ founded. Truth is timeless. Reality is timeless. Only fads and fashions change.

Knowledge changes, but it goes deeper, and the catholic fiath is deeper and more profound now than ever, but it will not change to become fashionable.

and yes, I am waiting for him to die, and hoping that we get a better pope, but I don't think there's anything wrong with that. It not like I'm saying I will do the job myself, I'm just saying- hurry up and die, so we can get a better pope... in much the same way, I shall rejoice and go drinking when maggie thatcher dies... is that so wrong?
I'll leave that one with you...

Thomas
 
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