Pope: Other Christians not true churches

[Thomas]

Where one person sees a hierarchy, another person sees elitism

This is the perennial problem.

Sure, we can see hierarchies in nature, and they are not always pretty.

That is a subjective opinion, however. We have to deal with objective realities first. Nor can we do away with them. If there were no hierarchy, there would be no growth, no progress, no development ... no movement.

We can also see man made hierarchies that people might in the beginning think to be beautiful, only to witness them to later become corrupt.

We can also see hierarchies becoming corrupt because man thinks he knows better ... our current eco/environmental problems, for one ...

Some people need rigid hierarchies, and thrive in them, while others become apathetic in them. Personally, would I prefer that people thrive, whether it be in a strong hierarchy, or whether it be in a more subtle arrangement.

My two cents.

Always worth more than that, Seattlegal, although I don't think I've said so often enough.

Thomas

 

[post-abrahamic]

One of these days scholars with guts will confront the Pope and the Catholic Church with charges of deliberately mixing pagan gods with Christianity.

It turns out the whole Peter as first Pope establishing the Apostolic Succession authority was himself a mythical creation. There were two gods of Rome named Ju-Peter, and Janus-Peter. Janus Peter's icon was the twin heads facing in opposite directions. Janus-Peter was the keeper of keys to heaven and earth and his image was put on doorways symbolizing the Gate between heaven and hell. The word "cardinal" means hinge.

The Catholic Church Fathers seemed to have no difficulty in mixing Roman pagan ideas with their budding Church enterprise that would create lasting employment for Christian bishops and priests. Janus-Peter was in charge of the calendar too so we all are honoring Janus-Peter with the first month of the year.

Catholicism is on its last legs as spiritual authority but doesn't know it..

Ratzinger did get it right about Buddhism though...

 

[Postmaster]

And if the Catholic Church had never existed, none of these things would have ever happened. Its a specious argument. Do we do away with every sociopolitical system?

Thing is when a religious administration is doing something contrary to the book they are trying to uphold it says something about the religion, or shall I say religion in general. Some of the punishments were for very pointless things i.e. being a witch most often resorted in burning innocent women.

 

[Thomas]

I quite agree, Postmaster, but we do tend to look at the question out of context, and from the benefit of hindsight.

As I have said, and as sociologists are now showing, the Church often did more to protect the right of the individual than the state ... and the last century alone would seem to indicate that, in the absence of any kind of religious morality, the state is far more violent ... the massacres of secular politics are far worse than those of religion ... and more witches were burnt by the secular authorities than the religious, as witchcraft was seen as against the public good more than it was as demonic or whatever...

Any more Christians have died for their faith in the last 100 years than in the 1900 years preceeding them ... as we speak the Christian communities in Iraq are being decimated ...

Thomas

 

[Thomas]

Is nature and spirituality the same?

I think so. 'As above, so below'. All spiritual traditions have their hierarchies.

Thomas

 

[Saltmeister]

I think so. 'As above, so below'. All spiritual traditions have their hierarchies.

Thomas

Hey, I thought the point of Christianity was a God who bypassed hierarchies.

That thing about Jesus coming down to earth to be one of us, rather than a king or priest. Oh yes he was a Rabbi, but he broke with many traditions. He spoke on a more personal level........ and could often be vague or speak in metaphors. He connected with people.......He made people feel valued and appreciated for who they were, not what people thought of them.....

Very down-to-earth indeed.

 

[Postmaster]

I disagree that nature and spirituality are the same. I think they are a contrast of the same thing, but they are not the same contrast. I think spirituality can illuminate the dark part of nature. Hense the term thy Kingdom come.

There are people that are not religiously motivated that seem to uphold the same sometimes better standards of morals to those who are religiously motivated and vice versa.

Fact is no one will ever understand the afterlife, just as we will never fully understand God. It is all based on assumption. As for mysticism i.e miracles has been observed in Hinduism, Islam, Buddhism, and Christianity even in pre-Christian Greek and Roman Paganism. Biologcally we are all pre-programmed to accept those who are more like us and repel those who are least like us, this can be erased as soon as we realise we all have common goals.

 

[Thomas]

Hey, I thought the point of Christianity was a God who bypassed hierarchies.

Oh indeed He does! But that does not mean they do not exist. Dionysius the Areopagite in "The Celestial Hierarchy" details the angelic orders, and in the Judeo Christian traditions angels act as messengers, but not mediators.

It's a sobering thought ... would an angel post to CR?

That thing about Jesus coming down to earth to be one of us, rather than a king or priest.

I rather think He surpasses the titles accorded to Him, of 'Prophet, Priest and King' — He was the fulfillment of Israel's prophetic hope, after all, and eventually claimed to be God ... that's what got Him killed.

He spoke on a more personal level........ and could often be vague or speak in metaphors. He connected with people.......He made people feel valued and appreciated for who they were, not what people thought of them.....

Just like his Father.

Thomas

 

[wil]

Had a discussion with a retired Monsignor at an Interfaith Service this week. I was off to scout camp and this same priest ran the Catholic service which covered the boy's and adult's obligations while at scout camp...but two days later he led the interfaith service....quite different than the stuff he's been doing for the past 50 years..discussion, meditations, he did lead us in a gregorian chant...and the call and response was the scout oath, promise, motto and law with responses from the Bible, Torah, Koran, Upanishads, Vedas, Confucious, Book of Mormon....the scouts and leaders that attended enjoyed it very much....the current pope has some time to understand grow in his new position...his flock will assist.

 

[Quahom1]

And what is such a claim? Its no different to a monarchy of inbreds. A lineage such as that is a ridiculous notion on which to base pre-eminence upon. Lets remember also that the history of the Catholic church is also one of execution, murder, burnings, intolerance and political meddling that resulted in many terrible wars. yeh.... some lineage indeed.
The Facts about Benedict are for me clear. Before coming into the top job he was instrumental in trying to cover up the countless accusations of paedophilia and physical abuse by priests and sisters around the world on children. Since becoming Pope he has made gaff after gaff after gaff showing an insensitivity to a secular world that is so overt that it cannot be accidental.

Personaly I think him a pompous self-important fool and exactly what the Catholic church did not need at this point in history.

Tao

And the last thing we need is a pompous statement from a non catholic, who doesn't know his backside from a hole in the ground, pertaining to the Roman Church. Really Tao, that is rather rude, don't you think?

Don't insult, if you do not want to be insulted...

or is that do unto others...?

v/r

Q

 

[Dondi]

And the last thing we need is a pompous statement from a non catholic, who doesn't know his backside from a hole in the ground, pertaining to the Roman Church. Really Tao, that is rather rude, don't you think?

Don't insult, if you do not want to be insulted...

or is that do unto others...?

v/r

Q

Hey! Welcome back, Josh! We missed you. Tao missed you, too.

 

[Quahom1]

Hey! Welcome back, Josh! We missed you. Tao missed you, too.

Why? He likes me griping on him?

thanks Dondi.

 

[Thomas]

Hi Wil —

... the current pope has some time to understand grow in his new position...his flock will assist.

You show me the place in Scripture where Jesus Christ led an ecumenical service, calling on His own God, and the gods of Rome, Greece, and whoever else present, etc., to bless His audience.

If not, I suggest your retired Monsignor needs to think again.

What his example says to me, from admittedly your somewhat bald account is that:

1 - He is in breach of his vow as a priest,
2 - He is promoting at least one heresy.
3 - He is in breach of the First Commandment,

Personally, Wil, I think it's this kind of thing that necessitated the Church stating the position precisely so there can be no doubt about what has always been the case, and always been believed by Catholics. And note our Orthodox bretheren support us on that point.

Otherwise the next thing we'll have is people insisting that a Buddhist monk can distribute the Christian Sacrament to a congregation of Brahmins, because, hey, it's all the same God, right?

This is not an example of ecumenism, faith in action, charity or brotherhood — it's a laissez faire faith founded on pure sentimentalism.

Thomas

 

[wil]

And the last thing we need is a pompous statement from a non catholic, who doesn't know his backside from a hole in the ground, pertaining to the Roman Church. Really Tao, that is rather rude, don't you think?

Don't insult, if you do not want to be insulted...

or is that do unto others...?

I suppose it could very well be do onto others when the Pope says everyone else is wrong, he should expect and may deserve venom when he spews it. I welcome you back also Q, but in your response you made no response to his numerous points against the organization, but did make a personal insult against him, and that was rude.

It is normal for those from the outside of anything to have many ideas about the situation... (somebody said....I used to have three theories on child raising, now I have three children and no theories) and we all know the 'church' is not without sin, $660 million this week is a drop in the bucket to what they owe. This Pope is doing them no favors and washing away the goodwill of a Pope who was loved and respected well beyond the walls of the 'church'.

On Tao's statements...they will continue as the church itself has said that no one deserves forgiveness until they admit their sins and ask for it....they've got some time to spend in the confessional...

 

[Tao_Equus]

And the last thing we need is a pompous statement from a non catholic, who doesn't know his backside from a hole in the ground, pertaining to the Roman Church. Really Tao, that is rather rude, don't you think?

Don't insult, if you do not want to be insulted...

or is that do unto others...?

v/r

Q

Thank you Q!! It is wonderful to have you back

My opinion is that Pope Benedict does indeed deserve to be insulted, ridiculed and, most especially, exposed for the moral bankrupt that he is. As I write my Catholic girlfriend is at Mass. She is Polish and a devout catholic. At the beginning of our relationship my status as an unbaptised heathen was a real problem for her. In fact we would not be together now if the priest from whom she sought permission had not given his blessing. And this is the issue. The authority the Pope and Priests has over the minds and freedom of so many Catholics. Given the extremely shady history of the Catholic church and its ordained representatives every man as a man has the right to question its moral authority to say anything. Cathoilic way of life touches me personaly and I have every right to comment on it. I have seen first hand the cruelty and abuse meted out by Catholic Nuns at Nazereth House here in Edinburgh when I was at school. These "good sisters" routinely tortured innocent orphan children reducing several to nervous wrecks that have to live a lifetime of scarring from this abuse. So do not tell me I dont know my back-side from a hole in the ground. My back-side knows perfectly well its function in regard to the hole in the ground of Catholic moral authority.

The Pope led a group to hide child sex abuse within the church from the wider public. This, and this alone qualifies him as a criminal guilty of the obstruction of investigation and withholding evidence. I do not insult. I speak cold hard truths. The current Pope, as they invariably are, is a political appointee from within. He was not chosen because he is a "good man".

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article15190.htm

Regards

Tao

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

Maybe I'm just dumb, but I read the Dominus Iesus and I don't see the big deal. Imagine that the Pope is the CEO of Coca Cola. Basically he's saying that while Dr. Pepper, RC (ha! RC), and Pepsi are indeed cola drinks, they are in no wise THE cola that Coca Cola is. Coke is superior, Coke is the original, and just in case anyone is confused he's going to restate the Supremacy of Coke. I just don't see anything shocking in that.

The RCC's opinion has always been that it is the only genuine article. I find it more than a bit disingenuous for representatives of the Church to go around playing nice and fluffy when actual Church doctrine contradicts what they are saying. That's a classic bait and switch. I appreciate the straight, unvarnished truth.

Chris

 

[Tao_Equus]

fair comment Chris but we aint exactly talking what to dilute our whisky with.

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

No, we're talking about an old fart who lives in a castle and refuses to wear trousers!

Chris

 

[Tao_Equus]

You said it not me!!

 

[Quahom1]

Maybe I'm just dumb, but I read the Dominus Iesus and I don't see the big deal. Imagine that the Pope is the CEO of Coca Cola. Basically he's saying that while Dr. Pepper, RC (ha! RC), and Pepsi are indeed cola drinks, they are in no wise THE cola that Coca Cola is. Coke is superior, Coke is the original, and just in case anyone is confused he's going to restate the Supremacy of Coke. I just don't see anything shocking in that.

The RCC's opinion has always been that it is the only genuine article. I find it more than a bit disingenuous for representatives of the Church to go around playing nice and fluffy when actual Church doctrine contradicts what they are saying. That's a classic bait and switch. I appreciate the straight, unvarnished truth.

Chris

Eh, Doctor Pepper is a product of the Coca Cola Bottling company...

Coke came on scene before Pepsi. So, in effect, Coke is the real thing, and all others are knock offs...however Pepsi, had the honesty to warn Coke that someone was trying to sell their secrets...hence Pepsi won it's own right as an upstanding company...

Kinda like the Roman church and protestant church...don't you think?