What if....

[17th Angel]

What if the religion you follow is wrong? What if your holy book is wrong and X holy book is right? What if none of these holy books/religions/ways are right? What if..... We have no reason, no purpose.... But, to die. I sit here right now, and I am dying... You who are reading this... You also are dying... The sand in your timer slips by, grain by grain and there are only so many grains of sand within it. We cannot pause it, we cannot control it whatsoever. I am getting this feeling like life... Life is like a condition.... You know?... And religion is the sedative.... Given in dose's to ease the pain and make you forget.... To put that false smile on your face as you sit alone in a chair slowly rocking back and forth, back and forth.... Everything is now ok and you feel bliss...... But, your missing the truth and reality.... Like freaking blinkers....

I pondered one night pleading for god to proove that all my what if's are nothing to dwell on, then it made me think..... There is no answer, what if god isn't there... what if it is allah, or some space alien thingy bob.... Or something else that no one has figured.... Or nothing is there? Then looking at the statistics... Of likleyness to be born... That is unreal.... How freaking lucky am I? How lucky are you? We freaking made it... There has to be more than just death... Why isn't anything/one coming and resting my mind putting me at ease? Then I go through the stage of...... Well How unlucky am I? Why did I have to be born? A human... With, adequate... Intelligence.... I have enough to torture myself... I have no freaking idea where I am going with this.......


What if?

 

[cavalier]

Even if those religions are true, or just one of them, does that really change anything? does it give us purpose or reason?

Religion is a sedative? I might agree with that, mass religion anyway. There are plenty of other sedatives though, jobs, commercialism, repeatedly going out and geting pissed with your mates...

Maybe spirituality though, is what might help us to understand the lack of purpose or reason, that if there is nothing beyond death then that in itself is what is beyond death.

 

[17th Angel]

Even if those religions are true, or just one of them, does that really change anything? does it give us purpose or reason?

Sure it does, then there is something that has made you and wishes for you to do something, also they all have a promise of reward, so life isn't the end IF one of these WAS true.

Religion is a sedative? I might agree with that, mass religion anyway. There are plenty of other sedatives though, jobs, commercialism, repeatedly going out and geting pissed with your mates...

Well yeah, that can really depend on the person... I wouldn't see job as a sedative... That is some kind of drug I have a reaction to, and makes the condition called "life" even more unbearable.....

Maybe spirituality though, is what might help us to understand the lack of purpose or reason, that if there is nothing beyond death then that in itself is what is beyond death.

But what spirituality? What's that? Where does it tell you about that... In such and such book? What if that book is a load of bull? And spirituality isn't real. lol... I like that next bit, fancy words If there is nothing beyond death then there is nothing.. IF... If there is that word again....

 

[cavalier]

Sure it does, then there is something that has made you and wishes for you to do something, also they all have a promise of reward, so life isn't the end IF one of these WAS true.

Ok,so life is prolonged and enhanced, but that doesn't really change our condition

Well yeah, that can really depend on the person... I wouldn't see job as a sedative... That is some kind of drug I have a reaction to, and makes the condition called "life" even more unbearable.....

But what spirituality? What's that? Where does it tell you about that... In such and such book? What if that book is a load of bull? And spirituality isn't real.

I see your gripe, my spirituality or his, and why? I think you're married right?l Why? How did you know which girl?

lol... I like that next bit, fancy words If there is nothing beyond death then there is nothing.. IF... If there is that word again....

I glad you appreciate the fanciness.
I did say if a lot, but I'm not going go make any promises.

 

[17th Angel]

Ok,so life is prolonged and enhanced, but that doesn't really change our condition

It may do in the long run... I am sure there are many here that are so cock sure of that...

I see your gripe, my spirituality or his, and why? I think you're married right?l Why? How did you know which girl?

Simple, it fitted in with my life.... I guess most religions are like that too crazy...

I glad you appreciate the fanciness.
I did say if a lot, but I'm not going go make any promises.

Keep to [IF]'s they are best...

 

[JosephM]

What if the religion you follow is wrong? What if your holy book is wrong and X holy book is right? What if none of these holy books/religions/ways are right?

Don't follow a religion. They all contain errors. So what!
Doesn't change anything.

What if..... We have no reason, no purpose.... But, to die. I sit here right now, and I am dying... You who are reading this... You also are dying... The sand in your timer slips by, grain by grain and there are only so many grains of sand within it. We cannot pause it, we cannot control it whatsoever. I am getting this feeling like life... Life is like a condition.... You know?... And religion is the sedative.... Given in dose's to ease the pain and make you forget.... To put that false smile on your face as you sit alone in a chair slowly rocking back and forth, back and forth.... Everything is now ok and you feel bliss...... But, your missing the truth and reality.... Like freaking blinkers....

So what! Why does it then matter to you? If you have no reason or purpose then you have nothing to be concerned with. Of course we are all dying... That is the nature of things created. Where is your suffering? Is it real or self created? Who is it that suffers? These are good questions for you to enquire of your self.

I pondered one night pleading for god to proove that all my what if's are nothing to dwell on, then it made me think..... There is no answer, what if god isn't there... what if it is allah, or some space alien thingy bob.... Or something else that no one has figured.... Or nothing is there? Then looking at the statistics... Of likleyness to be born... That is unreal.... How freaking lucky am I? How lucky are you? We freaking made it... There has to be more than just death... Why isn't anything/one coming and resting my mind putting me at ease? Then I go through the stage of...... Well How unlucky am I? Why did I have to be born? A human... With, adequate... Intelligence.... I have enough to torture myself... I have no freaking idea where I am going with this.......

Perhaps if you allow the hypothetical 'what ifs' to disappear then reality will show itself? Perhaps there is more than just death. Perhaps there is something coming to you to rest your mind but you are resisting with hypothetical 'what ifs' as you always do as a matter of habit. When YOU are tired of torturing yourself perhaps you will rest in your true nature. Just some thoughts for you to consider.... no more... no less

What if?

"What if?" by definition has no existance in reality...

Love and Peace,
JM

 

[17th Angel]

Don't follow a religion. They all contain errors. So what!
Doesn't change anything.

But... IF one of them is right.. It does change things, changes everything....

So what! Why does it then matter to you? If you have no reason or purpose then you have nothing to be concerned with. Of course we are all dying... That is the nature of things created. Where is your suffering? Is it real or self created? Who is it that suffers? These are good questions for you to enquire of your self.

Of course people have something to be concerned with, they are dying... And hold too much intelligence for their own good... you could for example "take the birds"..... Heh... They obviously have no worry.. No threats or concerns because they are not as high in intelligence as us... Well, most of us..... They and all other animals have no reason to threat... But, we take more value on our material world and life... And want more, expect more....

Where is my suffering? That hasn't come to be yet........

Perhaps if you allow the hypothetical 'what ifs' to disappear then reality will show itself? Perhaps there is more than just death. Perhaps there is something coming to you to rest your mind but you are resisting with hypothetical 'what ifs' as you always do as a matter of habit. When YOU are tired of torturing yourself perhaps you will rest in your true nature. Just some thoughts for you to consider.... no more... no less

Do you still torture yourself? If not, what reality did you find behind the 'what if' problem.... Did something come to ease and rest your mind?

 

[Paladin]

Hey 17th,
Boy did you open up a can of worms

Can you see the meaning you have attatched to the things you have mentioned? It seems there is meaning in your mind, a mental construct of what death is, and existence, even dualism and non dualism has for you some meaning and all these meanings have to be managed somehow don't they?
What would happen if you chose not to manage them?

 

[17th Angel]

Can you see the meaning you have attatched to the things you have mentioned? It seems there is meaning in your mind, a mental construct of what death is, and existence, even dualism and non dualism has for you some meaning and all these meanings have to be managed somehow don't they?
What would happen if you chose not to manage them?

You tell me, what would happen? lol....

 

[Paladin]

Why not try it and see what happens?

17th, I have been reading your posts for two years now and find you to be an exceptionally bright and intelligent person, so I won't give you any bull to mull over.
The problem with existence is that it really is all about you. To the degree that "you" or "me" fades into the background things become a little clearer. Nearly every thought that enters the mind carries with it the idea of a "me"
Even the effort at "no-thought" inherently does the same thing. So we are left with all these thoughts, mental constructs, conceptual models that quite effectively insulate us from what is.
As we age, if we are lucky, we get quite a bit stupider, and then we can relax a little realizing that by doing nothing, things still get done.
This is hard to explain in words, especially for me, because I'm getting dumber all the time

 

[seattlegal]

Don't follow a religion. They all contain errors. So what!
Doesn't change anything.

We are the ones who contain errors...

Hey 17th,
Boy did you open up a can of worms

Can you see the meaning you have attatched to the things you have mentioned? It seems there is meaning in your mind, a mental construct of what death is, and existence, even dualism and non dualism has for you some meaning and all these meanings have to be managed somehow don't they?
What would happen if you chose not to manage them?

What? And run around naked without any clothes! I thought only very young children and crazy people did that!

 

[17th Angel]

Why not try it and see what happens?

17th, I have been reading your posts for two years now and find you to be an exceptionally bright and intelligent person, so I won't give you any bull to mull over.
The problem with existence is that it really is all about you. To the degree that "you" or "me" fades into the background things become a little clearer. Nearly every thought that enters the mind carries with it the idea of a "me"
Even the effort at "no-thought" inherently does the same thing. So we are left with all these thoughts, mental constructs, conceptual models that quite effectively insulate us from what is.
As we age, if we are lucky, we get quite a bit stupider, and then we can relax a little realizing that by doing nothing, things still get done.
This is hard to explain in words, especially for me, because I'm getting dumber all the time

No need to trouble yourself to explain it any deeper... I understand what you are trying to say.

 

[Paladin]

We are the ones who contain errors...

What? And run around naked without any clothes! I thought only very young children and crazy people did that!

Welcome to my world

 

[JosephM]

But... IF one of them is right.. It does change things, changes everything....

Perhaps for you my friend. But not for Me.

Of course people have something to be concerned with, they are dying... And hold too much intelligence for their own good... you could for example "take the birds"..... Heh... They obviously have no worry.. No threats or concerns because they are not as high in intelligence as us... Well, most of us..... They and all other animals have no reason to threat... But, we take more value on our material world and life... And want more, expect more....

Where is my suffering? That hasn't come to be yet........

Perhaps it is your intelligence that is the obstacle. Perhaps in reality you are no different than the bird except you allow your 'intelligence' to get in the way. Who is this 'we' that take more value on our material and life? If you are dying anyway... and you know you are temporal in nature.... why put so much value on things?

Do you suffer when you torture yourself? I must have misread you.

Do you still torture yourself? If not, what reality did you find behind the 'what if' problem.... Did something come to ease and rest your mind?

Is there a 'self' to torture? Should 'what if' be a problem for me? It is not a matter of something to come to ease and rest the mind... But rather a surrendering to that which is.... which is a certainty.

Love and Peace,
JM

 

[JosephM]

We are the ones who contain errors...

Seattlegal,

Yes, And religion is a concept of man/woman therefor all religions are inherently erroneous to some degree as communicated through the medium of his/her words.

Love and Peace,
JM

 

[seattlegal]

Hey 17th,
Boy did you open up a can of worms

Can you see the meaning you have attatched to the things you have mentioned? It seems there is meaning in your mind, a mental construct of what death is, and existence, even dualism and non dualism has for you some meaning and all these meanings have to be managed somehow don't they?
What would happen if you chose not to manage them?

We are the ones who contain errors...

What? And run around naked without any clothes! I thought only very young children and crazy people did that!

Welcome to my world

Hehehehe! Where's the remote? {I just love pushing buttons. } **Let's see, what happens if I push the 'pause' button?** (Time stops) **What happens if I turn the contrast all the way down?** (It gets dark) **What would happen if I push the reset button? Better not try that one...What's this 'input' button for?**

 

[Snoopy]

This is hard to explain in words, especially for me, because I'm getting dumber all the time

I would say that, as you age, you are reversing yourself into a state of transcendental dumbness, if I had the words to say it.

s.

 

[earl]

Sure it does, then there is something that has made you and wishes for you to do something, also they all have a promise of reward, so life isn't the end IF one of these WAS true.



Well yeah, that can really depend on the person... I wouldn't see job as a sedative... That is some kind of drug I have a reaction to, and makes the condition called "life" even more unbearable.....





But what spirituality? What's that? Where does it tell you about that... In such and such book? What if that book is a load of bull? And spirituality isn't real. lol... I like that next bit, fancy words If there is nothing beyond death then there is nothing.. IF... If there is that word again....

17th, your rightful musings here remind me of a question my now 31 y.o. son asked me when he was 10 and his schizophrenic uncle had just committed suicide. He was in grief re it and was having a nihilistic moment, something along the lines of the tone of your thread. He could not comprehend that there was any form of continuation following death-he has always had a very empirical/scientific mindset. He asked me how I could even be open to such or what form of continuation that would take. Of course, not knowing I simply told him I thought that we returned to the same "mystery" from which we came at birth. I guess that "koan" engaged something in his mind as that satisfied him on some level. You/we ask about life after death-could it even exist? How many ponder from whence we came? 2 end-points in the "mystery." In a sense our "life" is like finding ourselves in a tunnel that trails off in both directions and which we cannot see beyond or perhaps even to the ends of that tunnel. Yet we find ourselves in it. We came from "somewhere" and are going "somewhere." Spirituality in a sense is that ongoing questioning between those 2 events in time. Or simply have a nice trip and look neither ahead nor behind you. earl

 

[Paladin]

speaking of trips Earl, I hope one of these days you decide to come on out and see the Rocky Mountains.

 

[Dondi]

Yet we find ourselves in it. We came from "somewhere" and are going "somewhere."

But if I read 17th well, he'll say "We came from 'somewhere' and are going 'nowhere'", which is the whole problem.

I guess one must ask if what one believes is worth it, even if there is no "reward". I can't say that I like the thought that all we have is this life and are no more. But I also wonder how I would live knowing that for sure. Would I still be a Christian, or live the principles of a Christian life, though there be no heaven? That would of course depend on how I find my life progressing, if I found anything of value in the Christian principles and if they have enhanced my life and relationships. I've heard that Jews in general do not worry about whether there is an afterlife, yet still live according to the Torah, and found satisfaction in that lifestyle, even in the worship of God. Should we worship a God that gives no promise of an afterlife and be content with the life now?

On the other hand, what if I'm wrong and Islam is right, for example? I have no real way of knowing that. There is a book called the Qu'ran that claims that Allah is God and Mohammed is His Prophet. But I am so unfamiliar with that religion and it's cultural construct that even to begin to think about changing to Islam would be so foreign to me that I don't even know if I would be comfortable with it.

And that is the thing that I realize when it comes to Christianity. That even if I were to go into all the world and preach the gospel, I'm going to run into people from other faiths who feel the same way about Christianity. The best I can do is give testamony of what Christ has meant in my own life. If that doesn't appeal to them, then the only thing I could say is to seek God where they are. Quite frankly, I don't see how God could fault someone for just happening to be born under the wrong sign. But I do think there is an universal internal mechanism to lead one to God, despite one's beliefs, that God will hold us accountable to. It is within the realm of conscience between what is right and what is wrong that if one would objectively examine oneself will discover that still small voice of conviction toward the right path. Just IMHO.