Except ye be converted...

Dondi

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"And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." - Matthew 18:3

Until very recently, I always regard this passage of scripture in the light of a Christian or "born-again" experience. Indeed, many evangelists will expound of this scripture to mean that one has to be saved to enter the Kingdom of God.

But upon a closer look at it, I discovered a deeper truth. I couldn't help but regard the phrase "and become as little children" and found that this is not necessarily speaking about a "Christian" conversion, but a conversion to a child. And it dawned on me that Jesus is speaking about bringing ourselves into a mindset of a little child. What does that involve?

A child has a sense of wonderment and asks a lot of questions. His/her mind is still forming the basic structures of thought and insight based on learning and experience. A child possesses a sense of trust to his/her parents, teachers, and other elders. And unlike an adult, they are not cemented in their philosophy. They are receptive to new ideas and adaptive to change.

So when Jesus is telling His disciples that they must be converted to little children, He is simply telling them that they need to strip themselves of the mindset they have been immersed in and be receptive to the things of God.

In the disciple's case, they have been orientated to 1st century Judaism. And there is nothing wrong with this, per se. But I think there is a point in a person's life that they have to decide what they are all about. All the religious training they have received and the influence of parents who have taught them their way will come to a head. And they have to ask themselves, "Do I really believe this?" "What is it that I really believe?" "Am I believing because my parents believe it or do I have this conviction myself?"

Conversion is a change. It comes about when we embrace either what we have always believed, in which case it is a change within your own belief system, but you've finally made it your own, and you've adopted it. Or it is a conviction that something else is the way. In that case, you've "found" what you believe to hold the answer, and it wasn't what you thought it was.

This change is not merely intellectual, but something that penetrates to your very core. It is fundamental to everything you stake your life in. And it comes about individually, something that has just lit a spark in you which becomes a reality to your everyday life. The change could have occurred rapidly, or it might have developed over a course of time.

I'm interested in hearing from people who have had a "conversion experience" in whatever religious paradigm you've adopted. How it has impacted you life or the lives of those around you. What kind of changes were made as a result. It doesn't have to be earthshattering, it could be a gradual change of heart toward noblier purposes or a higher sense of life. Differences between how you conducted your life before, and how you conduct it now.

Would you be willing to share such a conversion?
 
Great thread idea, Dondi! :)

But upon a closer look at it, I discovered a deeper truth. I couldn't help but regard the phrase "and become as little children" and found that this is not necessarily speaking about a "Christian" conversion, but a conversion to a child. And it dawned on me that Jesus is speaking about bringing ourselves into a mindset of a little child.

Yes, I think this is key. Jesus is speaking not about 'conversion' as we think of it these days, but about what Buddhists might call 'enlightenment,' Zen Buddhists 'satori,' and what Hindus would call 'moksha.'

Dondi said:
A child has a sense of wonderment and asks a lot of questions. His/her mind is still forming the basic structures of thought and insight based on learning and experience. A child possesses a sense of trust to his/her parents, teachers, and other elders. And unlike an adult, they are not cemented in their philosophy. They are receptive to new ideas and adaptive to change.

Some Buddhist wrote a book and called this state you are describing "beginner's mind." Rather than priding ourselves on being experts, among the learned, professionals, on top of the food chain/pyramid, etc., if we're going to be in "beginner's mind," we just kind of stand around and go, "wow." That's an extreme description. In beginner's mind, as I understand it, the individual is wondrous, receptive, curious, and trusting--as you have described.

As a side note, oftentimes trust is misplaced. I don't know what this has to do with beginner's mind, other than maybe to imply that in wisdom there is also discerning. Don't children sometimes, along with placing trust in others, also have sensitive internal compasses, bullshi! detectors, if you will? And I think that beginner's mind is by no means naive. It rests on intuition, and places its trust not so much in other humans as in a harmony and beauty beyond reason, found in God, subtle cosmic energies, whatever label you want to smack onto it. ;)

Dondi said:
So when Jesus is telling His disciples that they must be converted to little children, He is simply telling them that they need to strip themselves of the mindset they have been immersed in and be receptive to the things of God.

In the disciple's case, they have been orientated to 1st century Judaism. And there is nothing wrong with this, per se. But I think there is a point in a person's life that they have to decide what they are all about. All the religious training they have received and the influence of parents who have taught them their way will come to a head. And they have to ask themselves, "Do I really believe this?" "What is it that I really believe?" "Am I believing because my parents believe it or do I have this conviction myself?"

Conversion is a change. It comes about when we embrace either what we have always believed, in which case it is a change within your own belief system, but you've finally made it your own, and you've adopted it. Or it is a conviction that something else is the way. In that case, you've "found" what you believe to hold the answer, and it wasn't what you thought it was.

This change is not merely intellectual, but something that penetrates to your very core. It is fundamental to everything you stake your life in. And it comes about individually, something that has just lit a spark in you which becomes a reality to your everyday life. The change could have occurred rapidly, or it might have developed over a course of time.

I love this passage, Dondi! Excellent! :) :)
 
Yes, my brother....

Be as a child, without prejudice, without judgment...

You ever watched kids on a playground, they fight, "I hate you", "I'll never be your friend again"....five minutes later they are having a ball....it never happened.

Forgiveness, non judgment, those are couple things required to be as children.


A couple things most us adults refuse to give up.
 
Salaam Dondi

Wonderful, wonderful thread, thank you. I have waffled on lots of threads about my conversion so shall not bore you again but your post did leave me with one thought about mine.

I agree, asking questions is the key imo, I asked whether I believed my Christian teaching and answered 'not entirely'. The Jesus (pbuh) son of G-d bit simply didn't sit well with me, so I went on asking questions. I looked at a number of faiths but none made me 'feel at home' in my heart. I then found Islam (well actually it found me :D) which fitted in with my personal beliefs but you don't learn an entire religion before you convert. I therefore still ask questions every day. I read something that doesn't sound quite right and I question it (internally or externally). If my gut tells me it is wrong I reject it. I have come to the conclusion that all mainstream religions are perfect but the followers are not and we must continue to question so that the 'party line' does not lead us astray.

As children always do, we must look at every issue and ask "why? ..... says who?".

Salaam
 
personally, I find this particular line objectionable... to become like children... mmm...

u see, so far the replies have all been positive, but in truth I would question the motives of any religious leader who wants his followers to be like children... naive, vulnerable, impressionable, under the rule of adults, having to do as they are told, deferring responsibility to their elders, not by virtue of their rightness, but by virtue of their age and status...

to me at least, the line says- if you want to be a good christian you need to be an idiot who acts humble, never questions authority and does what the elders tell him to... nice...

as for children being unprejudiced, or non-judgemental- tell that to all the children who get bullied by other children, tell that to the little black kid who scrubs himself with bleach, tell that to the fat kid who pretends to vomit up his breakfast so he doesn't have to go to school and be tormented...

to idealise childhood in this fashion then leads us to believe that it must be a good thing to be innocent and immature, trust the grown ups, do as we're told... whats so good about that? if we all did as we were told there would be no Emiline Pankhurt, there would be no Rosa Parks...

to be humble like a child- Jesus obviously didn't grow up on a sink estate with ASBO kids next door, did he?

no, ASBO kid says... "humble- stick it..."

statistics suggest that in england 2 children a week die at the hands of their parents... 1 in five children is sexually abused... why does this happen?

because adults take advantage of children... they abuse their positions, as teachers and priests and fathers, they take advantage of the social rules which tell children that adults are always right, that they must be obeyed...

how better if would be if instead of teaching kids to be humble and do as they're told we instilled a sense of right and wrong in them, how much better it would be for children to refuse to be touched by priests, how much more likely you are to survive if you're a cheeky anti-authority type of child, how less likely then you are to be sexually abused, or murdered, or abducted...

so, I'm with ASBO kid... stick it...
 
"And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." - Matthew 18:3

What is a child? A child is something that DEPENDS on "Father" who "knows best" lol..... You are this dependant creature that -needs- to hear from a figure head... yeah...... sure.

Also what else is a child? A child is something that is pure... (OH HE HAS SIN!!) No I am not speaking in a religious fruit cake way... I mean this child -is- pure.... They haven't picked up habits and bad ways to do things, they have manners.... The bend down correctly to pick something up, they use the correct parts of their body to do what is required unlike an adult that picks up sloppy ways of doing things.....

So I don't think it means you're born again, I think it just means you are more, child like.... Dependant and pure..... Oh and willing to believe in anything :D I just had to.... lol
 
Good GAWD, Francis. So tough!! :mad: :mad: :mad:

:D

Like you, I also take exception to the trust and reverence to authority bit. To me, though, that misses a larger point. Children are filled with wonder. We all should be!! Yet the realities that you point out keep people down and stuck in confrontations, struggles. We are all in them, for sure, and there is a certain amount of gumption that one has to bring to the struggle as an adult or child out adrift in the cruel world.

Harsh realities are harsh realities, yet always fighting fire with fire burns the whole damn city down eventually. Tough-as-nails may preserve the individual struggling against the machinery of the State, the mechanics of the System, the dogma of the Church, the entrenched disregard of the Patriarchy. Yet does it allow for freedom?

If someone punches me in the face, I may fight back. Or I could just laugh in their face. Which takes more courage? Which is more likely to short-circuit the system itself? If I fight, I either beat up or get beat up. Either way, it's the same problem of life dominating life. Somehow we have to figure a way to get out of that trap. I'm not saying that laughing with a mouthful of blood is the answer. It's an extreme illustration of 'turn the other cheek,' if nothing else. I'm picturing a punk-rock Christ that shakes off the aggression and walks away to find something more worthwhile.

Cynicism comes with a price. I'm not trying to justify oppression. Yet my personal choice is going to fall somewhere in the spectrum of short-circuiting the oppression, rather than fueling it with more contention. Yesterday I read that John Dewey once said something along the lines of 'progress often occurs not when we solve questions but when we get over them.' To me, falling into beginner's mind allows one to rest outside of the arena of contention, which allows for creative change.
 
Some Buddhist wrote a book and called this state you are describing "beginner's mind." Rather than priding ourselves on being experts, among the learned, professionals, on top of the food chain/pyramid, etc., if we're going to be in "beginner's mind," we just kind of stand around and go, "wow." That's an extreme description. In beginner's mind, as I understand it, the individual is wondrous, receptive, curious, and trusting--as you have described.

"In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities; in the expert's mind there are few." - Shunryu Suzuki.

- taken from his classic book "Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind."

Suzuki is pointing towards maintaining a purity of mind (and hence practice); a purity of mind-body. The difficulty with the expert's mind is the propensity towards dualistic thinking.

Sorry, am I off topic here??!! :p


s.
 
yes, I also have equal distain for the whole "beginner mind" concept too...

why breed stupidity? why marvel at ignorance, why revel in not knowing..?

to me, this is a waste of mind... the mind is the greatest tool we have.. to better understand it means to better understand the world...
 
yes, I also have equal distain for the whole "beginner mind" concept too...

why breed stupidity? why marvel at ignorance, why revel in not knowing..?

to me, this is a waste of mind... the mind is the greatest tool we have.. to better understand it means to better understand the world...

No way... It is in the top five, but not the top tool....
 
naive, vulnerable, impressionable, under the rule of adults, having to do as they are told, deferring responsibility to their elders, not by virtue of their rightness, but by virtue of their age and status... [/quote

Hi Francis

How interesting that we see the same statement so differently. I do not see the suggestion of 'being as children' as you have stated above. I see nothing in there that suggests we must do as we are told or be vulnerable & naive. Quite the opposite in fact, I see it as simply telling us to be open minded, not to blindly accept everything we are told, to always question everything.

Salaam
Sally
 
Because Jesus was genuinely humble, little children were not afraid of him. Rather, they felt drawn to him. He for his part showed fondness for children and gave attention to them. (Mark 10:13-16) What was it about children that Jesus found so appealing? Certainly, they had desirable qualities that some of his adult disciples did not always display. It is a simple fact that little children view adults as being superior. You can see this by the many questions they ask. Yes, compared with many adults, children are more teachable and not as prone to pride. On one occasion, Jesus singled out a young child and said to His followers: "Unless you turn around and become as young children, you will by no means enter into the kingdom of the heavens." He continued: "Whoever will humble himself like this young child is the one that is the greatest in the kingdom of the heavens." (Matthew 18:3, 4) Jesus stated the rule: "Everyone that exalts himself will be humbled and he that humbles himself will be exalted."—Luke 14:11; 18:14; Matthew 23:12.
 
yes, I also have equal distain for the whole "beginner mind" concept too...

why breed stupidity? why marvel at ignorance, why revel in not knowing..?

to me, this is a waste of mind... the mind is the greatest tool we have.. to better understand it means to better understand the world...

Pretty much what Pathless and Muslimwoman said. We're not talking about ignorance or stupidity here. We're not even talking about the mind, but the heart. It's about letting loose of our rigid paradigm that has hardened us into adulthood. It's getting a fresh perspective on things. We tend to get narrow as we get older, as our psyche gels and our habits form. It's actually about opening up our thoughts to new ideas.
 
Pretty much what Pathless and Muslimwoman said. We're not talking about ignorance or stupidity here. We're not even talking about the mind, but the heart. It's about letting loose of our rigid paradigm that has hardened us into adulthood. It's getting a fresh perspective on things. We tend to get narrow as we get older, as our psyche gels and our habits form. It's actually about opening up our thoughts to new ideas.

I think Francis has a point when we look at conversions (or change) in a religious context.
Your perspective and your values run the risk of being replaced by dictated ones, it is when you are most vulnerable to be influenced.
In normal conversions you have little chance or help to step back and decide what's right for you.
So a childlike attitude may help you to absorb both the good and the bad.

Can we have a childlike heart with the cunning awareness of a fox?
 
yes, I also have equal distain for the whole "beginner mind" concept too...

why breed stupidity? why marvel at ignorance, why revel in not knowing..?

to me, this is a waste of mind... the mind is the greatest tool we have.. to better understand it means to better understand the world...

I'm hip to what your saying, and I don't disagree, but I think you could look at it another way. By the time a person gets to be an adult they've absorbed a mountain of misinformation. There is social, sexual, cultural, moral programming gunking up our brains. We're like Pavlov's dogs just waiting for the bell. And we've made all these connections; constructed our reality from bits and pieces of assumed meaning that we've never gone back to verify. This is what is being addressed by the idea of Beginner's Mind, or becoming as children. It's an invitation to intellectual anarchy of the kind most dangerous to the power structure, and consequently most empowering to the individual.

Chris
 
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