If Jesus had not died?

foundationist said:
It's interesting to note how the fundamentals are essentially Pauline in origin. Apparently, the Gospels by themselves are not enough. So the teachings, example, and purpose of Jesus according to those scriptures actually appears aside from the fundamentals - which essentially exist upon the principles not of teaching, but of salvation. Thus the writings of Saul of Tarsus take prominence over the sayings of Jesus.
That's how it appears a little from this perspective, anyhow.
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You have observed correctly,the fundamentals of the persent Christians have been set by Saul of Tarsus and not by Jesus himself,he was not even aware of this hijacking of the faith in his name,and perahaps it was for this he warned of "false prophets".
Thanks
 
inhumility said:
You have observed correctly,the fundamentals of the persent Christians have been set by Saul of Tarsus and not by Jesus himself,he was not even aware of this hijacking of the faith in his name,and perahaps it was for this he warned of "false prophets".
Thanks
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Actually I do not put Paul above or below any authors of the Bible. There are some of us Christians that base everything strictly off the Bible. If it isnt in there then it must have been minor point.

The difference is some people want to pick and choose what they want to believe and follow. That is all well and good too.

I prefer to stay on my narrow path. Everyone who wishes to stay on the wide path can choose to do so.
 
If Jesus hadn't died, and a few more people knew about it, Christianity would be Gnostic Christianity (well, maybe not). That would be awesome and there might have been less problems with Christianity throughout the ages.

Since it was all about gnosis, the resurrection wouldn't matter. I think the Gnostics also put forth that Jesus didn't have a normal physicaly body to begin with anyway.
 
If Jesus didnt die, we would all still be God hating law breakers of God's law and enemies of God. These sort of people dare not die without God's forgiveness!
 
moseslmpg said:
If Jesus hadn't died, and a few more people knew about it, Christianity would be Gnostic Christianity (well, maybe not). That would be awesome and there might have been less problems with Christianity throughout the ages.

Since it was all about gnosis, the resurrection wouldn't matter. I think the Gnostics also put forth that Jesus didn't have a normal physicaly body to begin with anyway.
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Good points, moseslmpg. I'm not too up to date on the specifics of your last point, but I'm curious. What do you (or the Gnostics, rather) mean? Got a link? Thx,

andrew
 
Well, I don't have a link that specifically refers to it, i.e. primary source but I read it in a book by Stephan Hoeller (Gnosticism: New Light on the Ancient Tradition of Inner Knowing). This is the only source I can remember, as I moved on from my Gnostic readings a few months ago. I'll write the important points (comments in between asterisks, emphasis his, please don't ban me if this is not allowed):

Gnosticism said:
Indeed, there was doubt whether he ever occupied a physical body like ours. Physical bodies do not walk on water, pass through walls, or shine like the sun...In fact, the canonical Gospels are uncertain regarding the precise nature of the 'resurrection body' occupied by Jesus *evidence given of discrepancies*" (Hoeller, 64).

"The two views agreed that, both before and after the resurrection, Jesus appeared to be occupying a body of flesh. Many Gnostics felt that the body itself might be an appearance (doketos), and thus they were accused of being docetists..." (Hoeller, 65).
*He goes on to speak briefly about the symbolism of the resurrection from a Gnostic perspective on the next 2 pages.*
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This book is a great introduction to Gnosticism for anyone who's interested, and it has a pretty exhaustive reading list in the back. I also recommend Hans Jonas' The Gnostic Religion for a more comphrehensive (albeit dated) source.
 
BlaznFattyz said:
we would be under the curse of the law.
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arrrrghhh! where I live, this is definitely still the case ... uh, again (?) :eek:

Perhaps that's part of what the whole coming again thing is about. You know, the Reappearance of Christ? :)

taijasi
 
Polycarp said:
In this regard, I've always found it interesting to note how Spanish addresses living and dying. As you know, Spanish renders "to be" by two distinct verbs: ser for equivalence or permanent state, and estar for temporary condition: Soy libre for "I am [now and always have been] free" vs. Estoy cansado for "I am [at present, as a temporary condition,] tired."

But "I am alive" is Soy viviendo while "I am dead" is Estoy muerto. It's a matter of idiom, to be sure, but Sapir and Whorf would say that there's a real conceptual significance behind the idioms.
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The verb estar denotes condition or place (which is more likely to be temporary), the verb ser denotes identity. Your example Soy viviendo is incorrect, you say estoy viviendo (I am living) or estoy vivo (I'm alive).
So there really isn't any difference adressing life or death in spanish.
 
BlaznFattyz said:
we would be under the curse of the law.
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Say what? Jesus (pbuh) confirmed the law. I suggest a review of the word translated 'iniquity'.
 
cyberpi said:
Say what? Jesus (pbuh) confirmed the law. I suggest a review of the word translated 'iniquity'.
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first of all this is a christian forum, secondly jesus fulfilled the law. jesus obeyed the law perfectly, however, that is something only the son of god could do. the rest of us are still under the curse of the law until we are born again thru christ jesus. the curse of the law being, we break one, we break them all, therefore we are guilty of sin and deserve death. and we all fall short of the glory of god. however with the grace of god, we have forgiveness and salvation thru god's son, jesus christ, and in him we have life.
 
If Jesus hadnt died.. I would be a lying thieving covetuous blaspheming adulterous idol worshipping sabbath breaker murderous parent abuser... and condemned for it.

Thank you Jesus for giving me your righteousness.
 
Faithfulservant said:
If Jesus hadnt died.. I would be a lying thieving covetuous blaspheming adulterous idol worshipping sabbath breaker murderous parent abuser... and condemned for it.

Thank you Jesus for giving me your righteousness.
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I'd still be a sailor, just not an honorable attempting one.
 
BlaznFattyz said:
first of all this is a christian forum, secondly jesus fulfilled the law. jesus obeyed the law perfectly, however, that is something only the son of god could do. the rest of us are still under the curse of the law until we are born again thru christ jesus. the curse of the law being, we break one, we break them all, therefore we are guilty of sin and deserve death. and we all fall short of the glory of god. however with the grace of god, we have forgiveness and salvation thru god's son, jesus christ, and in him we have life.
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I think a Christian would want to understand the word iniquity in these verses, right?:

Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity.

Matthew 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity.

Matthew 23:28 Even so you also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within you are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

Luke 13:27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence you are; depart from me, all you workers of iniquity.
 
Faithfulservant said:
If Jesus hadnt died.. I would be a lying thieving covetuous blaspheming adulterous idol worshipping sabbath breaker murderous parent abuser... and condemned for it.

Thank you Jesus for giving me your righteousness.
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Really, wow! So, Jesus is the only thing keeping you from being all of those horrible things?

Chris
 
China Cat Sunflower said:
Nevermind, I just got it. The collective blood guilt thing.

Chris
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Maybe not Chris. Sometimes we do what is right, not because we want to, but because we are compelled to by a source not our own, and not within our physical sphere of influence, or because something inside us overrides our desires, and helps us make correct choices we might not otherwise have made.

I can identify with every point Faithful made, if I think back far enough, or if I care to look at day to day details of my life, and what thoughts I may have harbored during different situations and issues.

I'm not looking at what someone else may or may not have done either, only what I did or did not do, thought or did not think.
 
Faithfulservant said:
If Jesus hadnt died.. I would be a lying thieving covetuous blaspheming adulterous idol worshipping sabbath breaker murderous parent abuser...
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Hmmm ... I tend to think, it's precisely the reverse. But not singling you out, or anyone in particular. Just a generic comment ...

taijasa
 
Quahom1 said:
Maybe not Chris. Sometimes we do what is right, not because we want to, but because we are compelled to by a source not our own, and not within our physical sphere of influence, or because something inside us overrides our desires, and helps us make correct choices we might not otherwise have made.

I can identify with every point Faithful made, if I think back far enough, or if I care to look at day to day details of my life, and what thoughts I may have harbored during different situations and issues.

I'm not looking at what someone else may or may not have done either, only what I did or did not do, thought or did not think.
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I was just shocked to think that a normal person would think they would be a murderer if not for accepting Jesus. But then I got it that FS was going through the commandments. I have a talent for missing the obvious sometimes.

I was just thinking that there are a whole lot of non-Christians, non-religious people who have absolutely no inclination toward any of that nasty stuff, but then that's not the point FS is making. Or, I don't think it is.

Chris
 
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