If Jesus had not died?

[Faithfulservant]

I was just shocked to think that a normal person would think they would be a murderer if not for accepting Jesus. But then I got it that FS was going through the commandments. I have a talent for missing the obvious sometimes.

I was just thinking that there are a whole lot of non-Christians, non-religious people who have absolutely no inclination toward any of that nasty stuff, but then that's not the point FS is making. Or, I don't think it is.

Chris

No..we are all nasty and do nasty stuff.. its the non-believers that havent a clue that they are neck deep in it.... the bible says that to hate someone is to commit murder... to lust after someone in ones heart is to commit adultery. It says that if we sin against ONE of Gods laws we are guilty of ALL of them. Like any guilty man heading into court.. we are deserving of punishment. To be so casually dismissive of the sacrifice Jesus made.. is dismissing the man that paid the debt...he literally paid the price FOR me so I can be set free rather than face punishment.. Every man is appointed to die once.. then face God on judgement day.

 

[Faithfulservant]

Hmmm ... I tend to think, it's precisely the reverse. But not singling you out, or anyone in particular. Just a generic comment ...

taijasa

Just a generic comment in response.. He said everything He had to say and when His hour had come..He shed blood for us in payment... died.. resurrected then ascended... plus.. HE had other things to do.. like go to prepare a place for us...amazing creation took 6 days and its been 2 thousand years ... makes me quite anxious to see what He's been up to.

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

No..we are all nasty and do nasty stuff.. its the non-believers that havent a clue that they are neck deep in it.... the bible says that to hate someone is to commit murder... to lust after someone in ones heart is to commit adultery. It says that if we sin against ONE of Gods laws we are guilty of ALL of them. Like any guilty man heading into court.. we are deserving of punishment. To be so casually dismissive of the sacrifice Jesus made.. is dismissing the man that paid the debt...he literally paid the price FOR me so I can be set free rather than face punishment.. Every man is appointed to die once.. then face God on judgement day.

Do you really believe that? That to hate someone, to want them dead, is the same as killing them? I mean the same in every sense? A person who hates someone should perhaps face the prospect of capital punishment or permanent incarceration?

I'm often tempted to do something wrong, like cheat on my wife, but I resist. What's the point of resisting if having merely experienced a moment of lust is the same as the act?

When the Bible says: "but if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness", who is it talking about: Jesus or God? What role does forgiveness play if we continue in a state of permanant guilt?

Chris

 

[shadowman]

No..we are all nasty and do nasty stuff.. its the non-believers that havent a clue that they are neck deep in it.... the bible says that to hate someone is to commit murder... to lust after someone in ones heart is to commit adultery. It says that if we sin against ONE of Gods laws we are guilty of ALL of them. Like any guilty man heading into court.. we are deserving of punishment. To be so casually dismissive of the sacrifice Jesus made.. is dismissing the man that paid the debt...he literally paid the price FOR me so I can be set free rather than face punishment.. Every man is appointed to die once.. then face God on judgement day.

i have a clue that i am neck deep. so i focus on my actions and the thoughts behind them. i try to let thoughts come and into consciousness and only focus on the positive. just about every so called false religion is trying to get its followers to sin less. some even think about how a human brain works and how to overcome its trained personality modes.

te idea is tat we dont have a personality except of the one we learnwed nurtured. we are all kind of like floating brains

 

[Faithfulservant]

Do you really believe that? That to hate someone, to want them dead, is the same as killing them? I mean the same in every sense? A person who hates someone should perhaps face the prospect of capital punishment or permanent incarceration?

I'm often tempted to do something wrong, like cheat on my wife, but I resist. What's the point of resisting if having merely experienced a moment of lust is the same as the act?

When the Bible says: "but if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness", who is it talking about: Jesus or God? What role does forgiveness play if we continue in a state of permanant guilt?

Chris

Yes I believe it... because Im being held up to a Holy perfect God and Im without the righteousness of Christ I am found sorely lacking..

The verse you quoted was about Jesus.. Jesus is our mediator with the Father.. He is the filter, in a sense... He filters out all the bad stuff... Yes Jesus forgives us our sins and makes us white as snow.. Thats the thing though.. Jesus died so we wouldnt be in a state of permanent guilt.. We are adopted.. or grafted into His righteousness and the only unique son of God.. He shares His Righteousness with us.. He shares His holiness. I have no guilt because I repented of all my sins towards God and accepted what Jesus did on the cross.. That seems like such a small thing.. but I seriously seriously repented and it was hard.

You cant ever NOT sin.. in thought or deed.. You will always struggle with it.. but thats where His grace and mercy come into play... You are forgiven.

 

[Faithfulservant]

i have a clue that i am neck deep. so i focus on my actions and the thoughts behind them. i try to let thoughts come and into consciousness and only focus on the positive. just about every so called false religion is trying to get its followers to sin less. some even think about how a human brain works and how to overcome its trained personality modes.

te idea is tat we dont have a personality except of the one we learnwed nurtured. we are all kind of like floating brains

You cant get to Gods grace through your own actions.. The tower of Babel is the story in response to that. You cant get to God through anything but the blood stained cross, my friend.

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

Yes I believe it... because Im being held up to a Holy perfect God and Im without the righteousness of Christ I am found sorely lacking..

The verse you quoted was about Jesus.. Jesus is our mediator with the Father.. He is the filter, in a sense... He filters out all the bad stuff... Yes Jesus forgives us our sins and makes us white as snow.. Thats the thing though.. Jesus died so we wouldnt be in a state of permanent guilt.. We are adopted.. or grafted into His righteousness and the only unique son of God.. He shares His Righteousness with us.. He shares His holiness. I have no guilt because I repented of all my sins towards God and accepted what Jesus did on the cross.. That seems like such a small thing.. but I seriously seriously repented and it was hard.

You cant ever NOT sin.. in thought or deed.. You will always struggle with it.. but thats where His grace and mercy come into play... You are forgiven.

Isa 1:12 When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?
Isa 1:13 Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.

Isa 1:14 Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.

Isa 1:15 And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.

Isa 1:16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;

Isa 1:17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.

Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

Isa 1:19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:
Isa 1:20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

Here's what I'm asking: Is Isaiah talking about Jesus? Because if it's Jesus who forgives sin then he wouldn't need to intercede on our behalf with himself would he? If Jesus is making the sins of the people of Isaiah's time white as snow why does he need to come and die? John says:

1Jo 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

So how is it that Isaiah is saying that either God or Jesus is forgiving, or ameliorating sin when Jesus blood hasn't yet been shed?

Chris

 

[cyberpi]

You cant get to Gods grace through your own actions.. The tower of Babel is the story in response to that. You cant get to God through anything but the blood stained cross, my friend.

I disagree. I think you have just contradicted yourself.

Matthew 10:38 And he that does NOT take his cross and follow after me is NOT worthy of me.

John 14:15 If you love me keep my commandments.

John 14:21 He that has my commandments, AND keeps them, he it is that loves me: and he that loves me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

 

[Faithfulservant]

Here's what I'm asking: Is Isaiah talking about Jesus? Because if it's Jesus who forgives sin then he wouldn't need to intercede on our behalf with himself would he? If Jesus is making the sins of the people of Isaiah's time white as snow why does he need to come and die? John says:



So how is it that Isaiah is saying that either God or Jesus is forgiving, or ameliorating sin when Jesus blood hasn't yet been shed?

Chris

Yes its talking about Jesus.. You are looking at a prophecy of what was to come.. the bible is 25% prophecy.. Jesus is the mediator between God and Man we go THRU Jesus to get to the Father..He is like a water filter.. filtering out all the bad stuff so the final product is pure and clean. Jesus has the authority to forgive sins because the Father GAVE Him that authority. The Father shares all His Glory Power Authority with His Son Jesus Christ.

 

[Faithfulservant]

I disagree. I think you have just contradicted yourself.

Matthew 10:38 And he that does NOT take his cross and follow after me is NOT worthy of me.

John 14:15 If you love me keep my commandments.

John 14:21 He that has my commandments, AND keeps them, he it is that loves me: and he that loves me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Jesus gave a new commandment that encompasses the Law.. Love God with all your heart mind soul and strength and Love your neighbor as I have loved you.... That is all the commandments rolled up into one.. But that commandment doesnt even matter if you dont believe what Jesus did because God loved you so much. Jesus makes it possible to have a personal relationship with God..thats why He did what He did..

 

[cyberpi]

Jesus gave a new commandment that encompasses the Law.. Love God with all your heart mind soul and strength and Love your neighbor as I have loved you.... That is all the commandments rolled up into one.. But that commandment doesnt even matter if you dont believe what Jesus did because God loved you so much. Jesus makes it possible to have a personal relationship with God..thats why He did what He did..

Every time it gets right back to the definition of Faith. The Heart, Mind, Soul all perform or cause action. Every one of them. Keeping the commandments of Jesus (pbuh) or of God (swt) requires action. The flesh may be the word, but the blood carries all of the action. So when you tell me that there is no action I can do to earn God's (swt) grace, I fully disagree and place the commandment right back at you. Maybe the Faith placed by grace in me is unearned and unwarranted, but I do not want to deny action to prove that true. Love is an action. Faith is an action. Truth in this world is the result of action. The soul causes action, the Mind causes action, the Heart pumps all of your actions non-stop. Everything a person ever does goes through the heart. To get the sugar and the oxygen to a single cell requires a round trip through that heart. By the word of Jesus (pbuh) there is no state of mind that will save a person except for the one that produced an action. Carrying the cross is an action. I would not want to be the person to apathetically die doing nothing, and find out what I already know... that it was only action here that earned God's grace. Don't tell me I'm saved being an unfaithful servant. I see the words of Jesus (pbuh), and I see them calling for action.

 

[Dor]

The actions come from the Spirit after we accept Christ. The actions are a product of the salvation not a means to get there. Keeping the commandments is good, we are supposed to do that(but doing so will not get you salvation).

 

[Faithfulservant]

Every time it gets right back to the definition of Faith. The Heart, Mind, Soul all perform or cause action. Every one of them. Keeping the commandments of Jesus (pbuh) or of God (swt) requires action. The flesh may be the word, but the blood carries all of the action. So when you tell me that there is no action I can do to earn God's (swt) grace, I fully disagree and place the commandment right back at you. Maybe the Faith placed by grace in me is unearned and unwarranted, but I do not want to deny action to prove that true. Love is an action. Faith is an action. Truth in this world is the result of action. The soul causes action, the Mind causes action, the Heart pumps all of your actions non-stop. Everything a person ever does goes through the heart. To get the sugar and the oxygen to a single cell requires a round trip through that heart. By the word of Jesus (pbuh) there is no state of mind that will save a person except for the one that produced an action. Carrying the cross is an action. I would not want to be the person to apathetically die doing nothing, and find out what I already know... that it was only action here that earned God's grace. Don't tell me I'm saved being an unfaithful servant. I see the words of Jesus (pbuh), and I see them calling for action.

the action is saying "God im sorry I sinned against you.. forgive me and come into my heart"

the action of faith is believing without needing proof.

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

Yes its talking about Jesus.. You are looking at a prophecy of what was to come.. the bible is 25% prophecy..

O.K., I agree it's a prophecy, or more precisely a vision, but it isn't about Jesus' time. How do I know that? Because the very first verse says who the vision concerns:

Isa 1:1 The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah.

I'm just curious, though: Is everyone good with the idea that it's Jesus who forgives sin?

Chris

 

[BlaznFattyz]

The actions come from the Spirit after we accept Christ. The actions are a product of the salvation not a means to get there. Keeping the commandments is good, we are supposed to do that(but doing so will not get you salvation).

following the commandments and doing works are actions that come from the spirit calling you to act; however the most important part is that you do it out of love for the lord and for his creations for the glory of god. your wanting to be obedient, compassionate, forgiving, and loving to god and others flows from this love.

 

[Faithfulservant]

O.K., I agree it's a prophecy, or more precisely a vision, but it isn't about Jesus' time. How do I know that? Because the very first verse says who the vision concerns:



I'm just curious, though: Is everyone good with the idea that it's Jesus who forgives sin?

Chris

This was the issue? Sorry I didnt know

Matthew 9:6 But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins"--then He said to the paralytic, "Arise, take up your bed, and go to your house."

Luke 5:24 But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins"--He said to the man who was paralyzed, "I say to you, arise, take up your bed, and go to your house."

Mark 2:10 But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins"--He said to the paralytic,

1John 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

by the way you are reading it wrong...
paraphrased...

The vision of Isaiah ( the son of Amoz in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah) concerning Judah and Jerusalem..

It was Isaiah stating when the time was he had the vision..like writing a diary and stating the date... Earlier works did it by stating the descendents. Is this what you are basing your argument against the deity of Christ?

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

FS,

You said:

It was Isaiah stating when the time was he had the vision..like writing a diary and stating the date...

I don't think so. Look at the text:

The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah.

No biggie, I can see you're getting edgy. I'll let it go.

Chris

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

O.K., this translation thing piqued my interest. I checked out several English versions and found that, with the exception of the KJV and the JPS Tanach, FS's rendering seems to be the preferred one. So, I think I may be wrong.

Chris

 

[Quahom1]

O.K., this translation thing piqued my interest. I checked out several English versions and found that, with the exception of the KJV and the JPS Tanach, FS's rendering seems to be the preferred one. So, I think I may be wrong.

Chris

Happens sometimes...

 

[17th Angel]

If Jesus had not died, would you still believe? I have just read a post by victor claiming that the Essenes say that he did not. I believe the Koran says similar. So I am now thinking on the importance of the event and as to whether Christianity falls if Jesus is not dead?

If he had not died would we all have ignored him, despite the greatness of his being and teachings?

If Jesus didn't die your religion (christianity) would be destroyed. What is the core of christianity?? Man is apparently imperfect, and the first generation Adam and Eve, sinned agaisnt your god... And obviously a "perfect" sacrafice was needed. "jesus thats your que!!" So if he didn't die.... isn't that it finished for christianity? Your saviour would have failed...