Judgment Day: Intelligent Design on Trial

Hi Dondi,

Evolution is not intelligent, it operates by chance and sheer numbers and in some living organisms by adaptability, (though even adaptability can be seen as random). But in some sense you are correct to question why I call it an oxymoron, it would have suited my argument better and more precisely to have just called it a moronic statement. So it may not be a strictly obvious oxymoron... but I am sure you get my point.

Tao

It is precisely this operation by chance and sheer numbers that are being called into question. Evolutionary scientists haven't been able to adequately explain how the origin of life, the first viable cell came into being. The numbers are so fantastic as to call the event as possible though natural means. Yet the saying is, "Well, it's obvious because we are here now, so it must have happened." That is not science either. That's faith.
 
It is precisely this operation by chance and sheer numbers that are being called into question. Evolutionary scientists haven't been able to adequately explain how the origin of life, the first viable cell came into being. The numbers are so fantastic as to call the event as possible though natural means. Yet the saying is, "Well, it's obvious because we are here now, so it must have happened." That is not science either. That's faith.

Evolutionary science does not rely on such a weak argument. Looking at the variations we see in the fossil record from different time periods we can clearly see evolution at work. This is a 4 billion year old story of gradual change where the scientists have made predictions and had them confirmed by subsequent finds. The scientific argument for evolution is not weak, it is very strong. And it has nothing to do with faith. Creationism on the other hand has no scientific validity whatsoever....yet tries to say it does. Comparing the two is actually impossible. Its like comparing kindergarten art with a Leonardo. It is naive and manipulative Bible thumping propaganda for naive easily led people. It is no more credible than flat earth theory.

Tao
 
Evolutionary science does not rely on such a weak argument. Looking at the variations we see in the fossil record from different time periods we can clearly see evolution at work. This is a 4 billion year old story of gradual change where the scientists have made predictions and had them confirmed by subsequent finds. The scientific argument for evolution is not weak, it is very strong. And it has nothing to do with faith. Creationism on the other hand has no scientific validity whatsoever....yet tries to say it does. Comparing the two is actually impossible. Its like comparing kindergarten art with a Leonardo. It is naive and manipulative Bible thumping propaganda for naive easily led people. It is no more credible than flat earth theory.

Tao

When you are speaking of Creationism, I assume you are referring to the literal six-day model. But that is not what intelleigent design is all about. Intelligent design is questioning the evolutionary model in that claims that the processes involved were completely natural. I have no problem with examining the evidence of evolution. If this is the manner in which life was created and divesified, I would be more than happy to accept it. But there are so many unanswered questions that should be addressed that doesn't account for naturalistic means. The aforementioned origin of the first viable living cell, for instance. If you are going to present evolution as the answer, you are going to have to start at the beginning.
 
It is my understanding that the current thought is moving away from the primordial ooze on this planet to life form, bacteria, spore from another system being rained down on us.

It is also my understanding that yes we have this piece of the puzzle and that there exist many missing links. Like the leap from a light sensitive patch of skin to an eyeball. And of course we've had the lack of origin of a species discussion in other threads.

Between the whole eden on earth concept being in serious doubt as well, both theories have so many holes in them that the combination of the two still doesn't knit a decent afghan. I think evolution as it is known today and Genesis, and Intelligent design will all be as equally as far away from what is finally discerned as the historical creation of life as we know it on this planet. ie each will have pieces of the puzzle, but the omissions and mistakes in all will be so large that argument over who was closest will be meaningless.

Have no fear though, each camp will revise their interpretations to proudly say, "Yeah, that is what I meant, see it was right all along."
 
When you are speaking of Creationism, I assume you are referring to the literal six-day model. But that is not what intelleigent design is all about. Intelligent design is questioning the evolutionary model in that claims that the processes involved were completely natural. I have no problem with examining the evidence of evolution. If this is the manner in which life was created and divesified, I would be more than happy to accept it. But there are so many unanswered questions that should be addressed that doesn't account for naturalistic means. The aforementioned origin of the first viable living cell, for instance. If you are going to present evolution as the answer, you are going to have to start at the beginning.

Lmao...who made GOD?
 
Dondi, you are confusing "evolution" (how life has developed, since the time when it was here) with "abiogenesis" (how life could have gotten started in the first place). They are rather different problems: the theory of evolution is equally compatible with theories that the first cell arose naturally, or arose by supernatural creation, or was engineered by passing aliens, or was a whim of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
It is certainly true that no reasonably complete theory of how abiogenesis could have worked exists currently or is likely to exist in the near future. But throwing up your hands in the face of the problem and saying "God did it!" is not satisfactory (besides leaving you with a "god of the gaps" who will keep getting smaller everything something more is explained). You reference "fantastic" numbers: these are derived from ludicrous pretenses at calculation based on false assumptions. Don't let yourself swallow whatever the creationists want to peddle today, just because they are Christians and so you want to give them benefit of the doubt.
 
Lmao...who made GOD?

I don't know why you are going here. I could just as well ask you what started the Big Bang. Neither can be answered.

When I said beginning, I meant the beginning of organic life. Organic life is composed of mostly six main elements: Carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen, potassium, oxygen, and sodium, with a smattering of a few other elements in the mix. ( I would add that the formation of carbon in the universe was quite remarkable in itself, but that's another issue).

Now you would agree that atoms are just atoms, right? That they in themselves have no inherent intelligence in them. And it was shown in experiments like the Miller Experiments that certain amino acids could form under certain conditions. But while amino acids form the basis for protein and subsequently DNA, that is as far as those experiments would go, at least for the present time. The problem is that amino acids are step one in a very long process to get to a viable living cell.

Even in the most fundamental and primitive of cells is a complexity that goes far beyond the rutimentary behavior of organic elements and molecules. Just pick up a college biology textbook and you will see a jump from this primordal pool of chemicals to a fully functional, albeit primitive cell.
 
Lmao...who made GOD?

I don't know why you are going here. I could just as well ask you what started the Big Bang. Neither can be answered.

When I said beginning, I meant the beginning of organic life. Organic life is composed of mostly six main elements: Carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen, potassium, oxygen, and sodium, with a smattering of a few other elements in the mix. ( I would add that the formation of carbon in the universe was quite remarkable in itself, but that's another issue).

Now you would agree that atoms are just atoms, right? That they in themselves have no inherent intelligence in them. And it was shown in experiments like the Miller Experiments that certain amino acids could form under certain conditions. But while amino acids form the basis for protein and subsequently DNA, that is as far as those experiments would go, at least for the present time. The problem is that amino acids are step one in a very long process to get to a viable living cell.

Even in the most fundamental and primitive of cells is a complexity that goes far beyond the rutimentary behavior of organic elements and molecules. Just pick up a college biology textbook and you will see a fantastical jump from this primordal pool of chemicals to a functional, albeit primitive cell. These cells are extremely complex, like miniature factories. It is organized and efficient. And if that isn't enough, this first cell to supposed to happen spontaneously, not only did so, but at the same time, gave itself the ability to replicate. This against astronomical odds in even forming the basic DNA molecule. Something is missing here.

My question is why and how would atoms and molecules behave far beyond their inorganic properties to form a living cell. Maybe this will be discovered through scientific means. But you have to admit, it is daunting be any stretch of the imagination that mere chemical reactions could produce life.
 
I don't believe we know everything we don't know about atoms. While I don't currently believe they think for themselves, I do believe they may be part of a larger thinking machine and their actions are not simply predicated on outside input.
 
I don't believe we know everything we don't know about atoms. While I don't currently believe they think for themselves, I do believe they may be part of a larger thinking machine and their actions are not simply predicated on outside input.

But you are making that assertion on a philosophical construct, not a scientific one.
 
But you are making that assertion on a philosophical construct, not a scientific one.
So, did atoms not exist before we thought they were there?

I was told electrons flew in these little valance circles and the outer electrons were shared. That was a scientific assertion. Now electrons pop in and out of existence, move from one space to another and are shared at various valences.

Did gravity or calculus not exist prior to Newton? Does it act any different now that he 'discovered' it?

Just because I cannot prove something scientifically does that make it not so? And of course it doesn't mean it is so either. Time will tell, but with the whole wave, particle arguments and everything else going round. I believe in time we'll find out that they are part of a bigger picture.

That little 2 gig thumb drive, sure can remember a lot can't it. What would it take 10 years ago to contain the same amount of information, and how long would it take to access it? How about 20, 50, 100 years ago? Did science change? Did reality change? Did philosophy change? Think about it, no moving parts, is it organic? or is the memory stored in and retrieved by atoms?
 
So, did atoms not exist before we thought they were there?

I was told electrons flew in these little valance circles and the outer electrons were shared. That was a scientific assertion. Now electrons pop in and out of existence, move from one space to another and are shared at various valences.

Did gravity or calculus not exist prior to Newton? Does it act any different now that he 'discovered' it?

Just because I cannot prove something scientifically does that make it not so? And of course it doesn't mean it is so either. Time will tell, but with the whole wave, particle arguments and everything else going round. I believe in time we'll find out that they are part of a bigger picture.

That little 2 gig thumb drive, sure can remember a lot can't it. What would it take 10 years ago to contain the same amount of information, and how long would it take to access it? How about 20, 50, 100 years ago? Did science change? Did reality change? Did philosophy change? Think about it, no moving parts, is it organic? or is the memory stored in and retrieved by atoms?


I'm sorry, I think you've misunderstood me, wil. You stated that you believe that atoms are a part of a larger thinking machine. From this I get that there is something esoteric about atoms. But in my response to Tao, I was waiting for something tangable to discuss. You may in fact be right, but how is that demonstated in terms that we can discover?
 
I'm sorry, I think you've misunderstood me, wil. You stated that you believe that atoms are a part of a larger thinking machine. From this I get that there is something esoteric about atoms. But in my response to Tao, I was waiting for something tangable to discuss. You may in fact be right, but how is that demonstated in terms that we can discover?
No worries Dondi, you are correct, I have nothing tangible, knowledge that exists in this regard may be currently studied contemplated by esoteric groups, scientific, philosophical and spiritual.

Current demonstrations? Prayer changing health, thought cleaning arteries, intention modifying reality.
 
Hi guys....are we going there again!!

As Bob pointed out clearly abiogenesis is a separate question to that of evolution and one we discussed at length on the abiogensis thread, so I will leave that alone except to say that it did happen.

But Wil took the tangent of calling into question the essence of atoms and that is one I can pick up and run with. And i suppose in doing it answers the question of abiogenesis. I think unlike Wil, however, I will decline from apportioning any divinity to that which makes atoms "alive". But I do believe every single sub-atomic partical in our universe is in some sense a lot more than we may give credit. And i believe that everyone of them is inter-connected outwith what we would call our standard laws of physics. Unfortunately I do not have time to go into a long discourse on it. And Wil, well i know you know where I will take it. You would ascribe a little more "sentience" than I would to it however.

So instead I will leave you with a question Dondi. What do creationists have to say about Quantum states?

Tao
 
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