G-d - what is He?
- Thread starter Muslimwoman
- Start date
Oh there are as many answers to that as there are religions in the world, self help books, or the number of people that have existed on earth times the number of years people have existed on earth. As many of us gain a new understanding of that each day.
But in this respect, it was to follow the wishes of the writers or story tellers.
Salt,
multiplicitous was my attempt to turn multiplicity into an adjective. I was just referring to the fact that usually we perceive many things, not One, and so understanding G!d purely at a non-dual level isn't really working with our most normative experiences. Better to mine our psyches and those of our ancestors via the texts they have left us for archetypal language with which to interface with the Divine imo.
multiplicitous was my attempt to turn multiplicity into an adjective. I was just referring to the fact that usually we perceive many things, not One, and so understanding G!d purely at a non-dual level isn't really working with our most normative experiences. Better to mine our psyches and those of our ancestors via the texts they have left us for archetypal language with which to interface with the Divine imo.
bob x
Well-Known Member
Prior to Islam, Allah "THE God" (as opposed to ilah "a god" used generically) was used by Arabic-speaking Jews, Christians, and related sects like the Subbaeans ("baptizers") to mean the God of Abraham, but was also used by some Arabs called hanifi (I think I have the word right), who were what anthropologists call henotheists as opposed to monotheists meaning that they believed that there was one Supreme God, above all the others (although the existence and legitimacy of the other gods was not denied), and these could believe that Allah had a wife, children, etc.
Muhammad, so the story goes, did once have a revelation that the three most popular goddesses in Mecca (roughly, the Moon, Venus, and Lady Luck) were daughters of Allah whose continued worship was acceptable in Islam; but then retracted those "Satanic verses" saying that the devil had gotten to him (in the Qur'an it reads, "there has never been a prophet speaking for God that the devil did not manage to throw in some words", a problematic verse to say the least). Salman Rushdie's title for his controversial book referred to this incident.
Muslimwoman
Coexistence insha'Allah
Note to self - don't post when tired!!
Yes Islam always was, as it simply means submission to G-d. My reference to 'prior to Islam' is prior to the revelation of the Quran and the founding of what we call the Islamic faith.
I have to disagree with Bob that the moon god was called Allah and was the G-d of Abraham (pbuh). The Pagans of Arabia at the time worshipped al-ilah (al meaning the) who was the Moon god and the chief of the gods, this name may have been shortened to al-lah.
They believed in a group of gods, governed by al-ilah, with minor gods doing the grunt work (for want of a better phrase). So they also worshipped el-Lat (destiny), el-Uzza (Venus) and Manat (godess of vegetable life), who they believed were the daughters of al-ilah. Then each tribe had it's own small god that they worshipped in the hope of intercession with the higher gods.
This is an interesting topic because it was mentioned in Salman Rushdie's book the satanic verses and led to the fatwa calling for his death (please note the fatwa was not a sentence by an Islamic court and many scholars spoke out against it, although my view is it was a bloody stupid thing to call the book). A lot of Muslim outrage came from Arabic speaking Muslims because they did not understand it was a work of fiction and the translation used the word ayat (which is reserved for verses of the Quran not for verses of poetry etc) which further confused the issue.
The reference to these godesses is Surah an-najm (the star):
For truly did he see, of the Signs of his Lord, the Greatest! (53:18)
Have ye seen Lat. and 'Uzza, (53:19)
And another, the third (goddess), Manat? (53:20)
What! for you the male sex, and for Him, the female? (53:21)
Behold, such would be indeed a division most unfair! (53:22)
These are nothing but names which ye have devised,- ye and your fathers,- for which Allah has sent down no authority (whatever). They follow nothing but conjecture and what their own souls desire!- Even though there has already come to them Guidance from their Lord! (53:23)
These were among the earliest revelations.
The suggestion is that verse 53:19 originally included 53:20 and the following:
These are the exalted cranes (intermediaries) Whose intercession is to be hoped for.
This controvercy goes back to two early Arab historians (al-Waqidi, A.D. 747-823, and at-Tabari, A.D. c. 839-923), who recorded the story of the 'satanic verses', stating that Satan had made the Prophet utter this verse but Allah informed the Prophet this was the work of Satan and the Prophet withdrew the verse. Later Quranic historians have stated that this story cannot be traced beyond these two historians so has no basis.
There are various views on whether the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) commanded people to also worship al-ilah's daughters, then retracted that command and stated the devil put the words in his mouth. Views range from 'it never happened' to 'yes it did but this was the doing of Satan and Allah put it right'.
Was it just a shrewd diplomatic move to ensure the survival of the Muslims in Pagan Mecca? We will never know but the story states that for a period of time the Muslims and Pagans prayed together, because the Pagans believed the Prophet was honouring their gods.
bob x
Well-Known Member
What is your interpretation of 22:52, the verse about the devil getting his words in?
Francis king
Well-Known Member
"male and female, in his image, he created them"... genesis...
for me, this implies that God transcends gender, and if he transcends gender, then he also transcends a body, or a single form, and for me this suggests that God is multiplicitous, diverse, all encompassing...
for me, brought up as a catholic- we had a trinity... God the father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit... I could not find peace with my own father, and so God the father was not a concept I embraced... God the Son, I could not grasp, as I was too young to feel that love for God as, for instance, a mother or father would feel for their son, and so, God for me, was the Holy Spirit...
This spirit, so fragile yet so powerful, is, for me, God... This spirit brings the pentacostal fire to the disciples, brings the visions to the prophets, the breath of God which brings about the creation of the soul... yet we speak little of the spirit, and our religions become about Gods, with specific characteristics, determinable, quantifiable, knowable... God as spirit is like-
"the Lord of the Dance"- the spirit of joy, of passion, a maddening but captivating melody that upon hearing causes u to dance, or "the lord of the meeting rivers", a union of energy, creating waves, and spray...
God, for me, is like wind- seemingly instubstantial, yet with gale force capabilities, or like water- soothing, quenching my thirst, yet fierce, a tsunami of energy... God, for me, is lover, best friend, brother, son, and yes,
even father,
but as a lover... he is not like a bad lover, who cannot satisfy, he is not a selfish lover, who seeks pleasure soley for himself, he is not like a mean spirited lover, who wants to dominate and control- he is the perfect partner... brother, son, father, best friend, all rolled into one...
and how we dance...
for me, this implies that God transcends gender, and if he transcends gender, then he also transcends a body, or a single form, and for me this suggests that God is multiplicitous, diverse, all encompassing...
for me, brought up as a catholic- we had a trinity... God the father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit... I could not find peace with my own father, and so God the father was not a concept I embraced... God the Son, I could not grasp, as I was too young to feel that love for God as, for instance, a mother or father would feel for their son, and so, God for me, was the Holy Spirit...
This spirit, so fragile yet so powerful, is, for me, God... This spirit brings the pentacostal fire to the disciples, brings the visions to the prophets, the breath of God which brings about the creation of the soul... yet we speak little of the spirit, and our religions become about Gods, with specific characteristics, determinable, quantifiable, knowable... God as spirit is like-
"the Lord of the Dance"- the spirit of joy, of passion, a maddening but captivating melody that upon hearing causes u to dance, or "the lord of the meeting rivers", a union of energy, creating waves, and spray...
God, for me, is like wind- seemingly instubstantial, yet with gale force capabilities, or like water- soothing, quenching my thirst, yet fierce, a tsunami of energy... God, for me, is lover, best friend, brother, son, and yes,
even father,
but as a lover... he is not like a bad lover, who cannot satisfy, he is not a selfish lover, who seeks pleasure soley for himself, he is not like a mean spirited lover, who wants to dominate and control- he is the perfect partner... brother, son, father, best friend, all rolled into one...
and how we dance...
Muslimwoman
Coexistence insha'Allah
I don't think it needs interpretation, it is quite clear. All Prophets are men, all men are tempted by desire but Allah will annull anything a Prophet says which follows his own desires.
There are six main volumes of hadiths which scholars rely on. Tabari is noted for writing hadiths that do not show Islam in the best light. Tabari stated that he was not to blame, he was simply recording anything he was told. Yet even Tabari made no mention of the so called 'satanic verses'.
Saltmeister
The Dangerous Dinner
Standards of perfection . . . notions of one's full potential, I suppose it's just a different flavour of the same thing. The trouble is, we don't know what God expects of us. We can only assume. His requirements, from our point of view, are a matter of perception.
I suppose setting standards may give us a mark to aim for, but knowing one's full potential could help us to be more realistic in what think we should or could achieve (ie. having aims and knowing our limits). You can't do better than your best.
I've heard the "God has standards" slogan being tossed around in some places, and it definitely seems like a culture is developing around it, to the effect that I feel that we need a counterculture to balance it out. Otherwise everyone is going to go around thinking, "God has standards." But the trouble is, we're all different. Each of us is unique. We can't all think the same thing. I'm not saying that "God has standards" is a negative thing, it's just that our religious communities need some diversity.
I'm a bit of a rebel. I don't like it when a culture develops around a slogan because it makes that community seem limited and narrow-minded in its world-view. I'd prefer to stir things up a little, possibly develop a counter-culture to popular fads and slogans. I like balance and diversity.
Outsiders to a faith or community judge that community or faith by the ideas that dominate that group. If we go around with "God has standards" people are going to think that we're a bunch of people that adhere to standards and they're going to have some pretty high standards for us too. We'd be bringing judgment on ourselves.
I'm not saying it's a bad idea. It just seems to be a very common idea. I go to religious book stores and to the Internet, and . . . there it is . . . saying, "God has high standards, He can't be around sin." We all have to choose our banners, slogans and bumper stickers. It's just that not everyone has to carry the same thing around. But again, it's not to say that's what you think . . . I was just making an observation and pointing out what I had seen and stating my opinion.
It just shows how limited our world view(s) can be.
What is God? The Bible does identify God sometimes as the 'Father' but this is not literall...
"For OUR GOD IS A CONSUMING FIRE." (Heb. 12:29)
"GOD IS SPIRIT" Jn. 4:24
"Now if any man build upon this [spiritual] foundation [Christ] gold, silver, precious stones [godly character traits], wood, hay, stubble [carnal character traits]; Every man’s work [thoughts, words, and deeds] shall be made manifest [become known, come to light]: for the day shall declare it [make it evident], because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is" (I Cor. 3:12-13).
This of course is not a literal fire. God is SPIRITUAL FIRE!
God and Jesus are likened to fire many many times, i can list so many...I fact i will:
"His head and His hairs were white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes were as a flame of FIRE" (Rev. 1:14).
"That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perishes though it be tarried with FIRE, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ" (I Pet. 1:7).
"And the tongue is a FIRE…" (James 3:6).
"And of the angels He says, Who makes His angels spirits, and His ministers a flame of FIRE" (Heb. 1:7).
"Every man’s work shall be made manifest; for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by FIRE; and the FIRE shall try every man’s work of what sort it is" (I Cor. 3:13).
"Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing you shall heap coals of FIRE on his head" (Rom. 12:20).
"John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I comes, the latchet of Whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: He shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with FIRE" (Luke 3:16).
"For EVERY ONE shall be salted with FIRE, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt" (Mark 9:49).
"But who may abide the day of His coming? And who shall stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner’s FIRE, and like fullers’ soap" (Malachi 3:2).
"…for all the earth shall be devoured with the FIRE of my jealousy" (Zeph. 3:8).
"For in My jealousy and in the FIRE of My wrath have I spoken" (Ezek. 38;19).
"From above has He sent FIRE into my bones…" (Lamentations 1:13).
"Is not My word like as a FIRE? saith the Lord" (Jer. 23:29).
"Who makes His angels spirits; His ministers a flaming FIRE" (Psalm 104:4).
Shall i say anymore? Our God is a consuming fire!
But of course they don't teach you this at church do they.
"For OUR GOD IS A CONSUMING FIRE." (Heb. 12:29)
"GOD IS SPIRIT" Jn. 4:24
"Now if any man build upon this [spiritual] foundation [Christ] gold, silver, precious stones [godly character traits], wood, hay, stubble [carnal character traits]; Every man’s work [thoughts, words, and deeds] shall be made manifest [become known, come to light]: for the day shall declare it [make it evident], because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is" (I Cor. 3:12-13).
This of course is not a literal fire. God is SPIRITUAL FIRE!
God and Jesus are likened to fire many many times, i can list so many...I fact i will:
"His head and His hairs were white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes were as a flame of FIRE" (Rev. 1:14).
"That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perishes though it be tarried with FIRE, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ" (I Pet. 1:7).
"And the tongue is a FIRE…" (James 3:6).
"And of the angels He says, Who makes His angels spirits, and His ministers a flame of FIRE" (Heb. 1:7).
"Every man’s work shall be made manifest; for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by FIRE; and the FIRE shall try every man’s work of what sort it is" (I Cor. 3:13).
"Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing you shall heap coals of FIRE on his head" (Rom. 12:20).
"John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I comes, the latchet of Whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: He shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with FIRE" (Luke 3:16).
"For EVERY ONE shall be salted with FIRE, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt" (Mark 9:49).
"But who may abide the day of His coming? And who shall stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner’s FIRE, and like fullers’ soap" (Malachi 3:2).
"…for all the earth shall be devoured with the FIRE of my jealousy" (Zeph. 3:8).
"For in My jealousy and in the FIRE of My wrath have I spoken" (Ezek. 38;19).
"From above has He sent FIRE into my bones…" (Lamentations 1:13).
"Is not My word like as a FIRE? saith the Lord" (Jer. 23:29).
"Who makes His angels spirits; His ministers a flaming FIRE" (Psalm 104:4).
Shall i say anymore? Our God is a consuming fire!
But of course they don't teach you this at church do they.
Well that's not my view!!
Let me enlighten you, no not me... God!
God is PERFECT! And God wants His children to BE PERFECT! And believe it or not God WILL. . . MAKE ... US ... PERFECT!
"He [God] chooses us in Him [Christ] before the disruption [foundation] of the world, we to be HOLY and FLAWLESS [PERFECT] in His sight ..." (Eph. 1:4).
"You, then, shall be PERFECT as your heavenly Father is perfect" (Mat. 5:48).
"I in them, and Thou in Me, that they [that’s US] may be made PERFECT in one; and that the world may know that Thou hast sent me, and hast loved Me, and hast loved them, as Thou hast loved Me" (John 17:23).
"Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man PERFECT in Christ Jesus" (Col. 1:28).
People are quick to say, "Well, NOBODY is perfect." That’s not true:
"For it became HIM, for Whom are all things, and by Whom are all things, in bringing many [that’s us and the rest of the world] sons unto glory, to make them the CAPTAIN of their salvation PERFECT [how?] Through SUFFERING" (Heb. 2:10).
Yes, maybe no one but Christ is perfect now, but it won’t always be that way. Paul knew that it was a process and that it would be ultimately God’s achievement:
"Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus" (Phil. 3:12).
"And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some pastors and teachers; For the PERFECTING OF THE SAINTS ..." (Eph. 4:11-12).
Say, did you notice that Christ was perfected through "SUFFERING?" Are we not to bear our own Cross? If they hated and persecuted Christ, will they not do likewise to us? Do we think the Scripture says in vain,
"Herein is our love made PERFECT, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as He [Christ] IS, SO ARE WE in the world" (I Jn. 4:17).
Here it is. The word of God. There is no denying it... We WILL be perfected through suffering.
This, my friend is not true... Allow me to quote myself from another thread...
God is not stupid...
Dondi
Well-Known Member
Azure,
I don't think you are going to get too many positive responses by quoting extensively in the New Testament here in the Judaism board, just letting you know. Nor, in fact, have you even quoted once from the Torah, which I think that if we are going to know who God is, from a Jewish perspective, that is the best place to start.
I don't think you are going to get too many positive responses by quoting extensively in the New Testament here in the Judaism board, just letting you know. Nor, in fact, have you even quoted once from the Torah, which I think that if we are going to know who God is, from a Jewish perspective, that is the best place to start.
If i recieve negative responses, then so be it. Is this not a discussion board?
Correct me if I'm wrong but, does the title of this thread not read
"G-d - what is He?"?
It does not say "G-d - what is He? For The Jewish Only"
Like I said previously does it not say "G-d - What is He?"?
Or
"G-d - what is He? From a Jewish Perspective"?
But is it not a Muslim who started this thread?
I have not read the Torah so i cannot possibly quote it...
Ok, so that means that i am not welcome is that what you are saying?
(I understand this is a Jewish thread but the question is Universal).
Dondi
Well-Known Member
I'm not saying that you aren't welcome on this forum, nor is it Jewish only. All I said is that you will not receive positive responses from the Jewish perspective, assuming that you are on the Judaism board for such a response, when you load your response with New Testament quotes.
Furthermore, I am quite surprise that you've said that you never read the Torah. Perhaps you are simply ignorant of what the Torah is: the first five books of the Old Testament - Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy. If you haven't read the Torah, then I would highly recommend it, for you won't have a correct understanding of God without knowing what these Hebrew scriptures say about Him.
Furthermore, I am quite surprise that you've said that you never read the Torah. Perhaps you are simply ignorant of what the Torah is: the first five books of the Old Testament - Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy. If you haven't read the Torah, then I would highly recommend it, for you won't have a correct understanding of God without knowing what these Hebrew scriptures say about Him.
Yes i am ignorant of what is. I have not read the Torah (as in the the Old Testament by itself - It is called the Old Testament in the Bible as oppossed to the New Testament also in the Bible) but i HAVE read the Old Testament.
I hardly doubt Jewish people read the Torah in the Bible but rather in a separate book without the New Testament.
I hope that clears it up.
Jews no longer use the term "Old Testament" to refer to the Hebrew Bible. When speaking English they use the term I just did, i.e. the Hebrew Bible. The term "Old Testament" implies a "New Testament," and since the Jews have never accepted the Christian Bible (i.e. the Gospels and Epistles, etc.) as canonical, it's misleading to use that term.
That's correct--they read it without the New Testament (the Christian Bible), which isn't canonical for Jews.
--Linda
Exactly! That was my point (you obviously seem to understand Raksha...But I was implying this to Dondi...)
That is why I said...
As in Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy but in the Bible (therefore Old Testament).
...But then again...
...Looking at the reponse that I have received from Raksha or as you put it 'the Jewish perspective', Dondi, perhaps you too are also ignorant as you seem to have underestimated the sensibility of the Jewish people of this board.
I repect your beliefs... If I have caused offense then I apologise (after all this is a Jewish Board). Perhaps I should leave...
Azure,
Fortunately, that isn't my judgment call since I'm not the moderator here. I'm also too much of a newbie to know what the policy is regarding New Testament material on the Judaism board. All I can tell you is that most of the Judaism forums I have frequented in the past have been VERY strict when it comes to Christian proselytizing. As soon as the moderator becomes aware it's happening, the offending post is deleted, and sometimes the poster is asked to leave the forum.
This hard-nosed policy is necessary because Jews have always been the prime targets for Christian proselytizing, which can be pretty sneaky and underhanded. Christians will come on the forum pretending to "ask a question" about Judaism. But then it turns out they are just looking for an opening, an excuse to tell all the Jews on that forum just how "wrong" they are regarding their interpretation of some prophecy, or the nature of the Messiah, or...whatever.
What it usually boils down to is rehashing some old debate that has already been rehashed and (from our side) refuted hundreds of times. This creates a hostile atmosphere on the forum and makes all other discussion impossible, so the moderators have to take a proactive stance when it comes to proselytizing.
I'm not saying you WERE proselytizing, but your extensive quoting from the NT made it look that way--not just to Dondi but to me too. Only you know your motives, but I definitely felt a sales pitch coming on.
I'm not so sure there's anything wrong with Jews saying New Testament, BTW. I just had another look at my source and I may have been wrong in my earlier post. But referring to the Hebrew Bible as "the Old Testament" implies that it's been superceded, which is something Christians believe but Jews don't. Since that has historically been a major sticking point between Judaism and Christianity, we don't refer to our Bible as the Old Testament.
Among themselves, Jews refer to the Bible as the TaNaKh, which is a Hebrew acronym--TNK. That stands for the Torah, the Prophets (Neviim) and the Writings (Ketubim). You'll see the word "Tanakh" often on this board. That doesn't mean the same thing as the Torah, which is the first five books only. Tanakh refers to what Christians call "the Old Testament" in its entirety.
It also refers to the Masoretic text ONLY. The Septuagint was translated into Greek for the use of the Greek-speaking Jewish community in Egypt. It isn't accepted as canonical for that reason among others. Which doesn't mean you shouldn't read it or study it, or that the Catholics are "wrong" for including the six disputed books in their version of the Bible. It's just that it isn't accepted as canonical by mainstream Judaism.
--Linda
I see what you mean, but believe me though I was not proselytizing.
On another note, I am not what you would consider a "Christian" though (even though I believe all things said in the Bible), as I, to a certain degree do not hold some of their beliefs also (but that in itself is another story).
On another note, I am not what you would consider a "Christian" though (even though I believe all things said in the Bible), as I, to a certain degree do not hold some of their beliefs also (but that in itself is another story).