The Function Of Belief

Hi Juan :) Happy New Year to you!!
juantoo3 said:
We need to make sense of our surroundings so that we are not overcome with fear of the unknown. When we believe (what we often call "know"), we no longer fear, we are no longer irrational, we are sane. It can be a frightening experience to have one's knowledge and underlying beliefs usurped.
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Frightened children. How the churches love them! How they like to sustain that fear in the books they use. Truth is liberating. The absence of propagated fears and embrace of rationality can and does bring personal peace. Not being at the centre of things, not being under Gods critical eye, allows one to sit back and enjoy the natural universe without preconceptions. It allows genuine truth to build upon genuine truth. No matter if these truths are only our best guesses. And most importantly it allows one to know ones place is no more or less equal than any other agglomeration of atoms in this wondrous universe. Being equal is far more desirable than being the product of a deity that appears to allow such great suffering in his name dont you think?

I do not think people are in fear without god, I think they are in fear because of god. A benign and ambivalent universe has not got it in for you because you fail to attend church of a Sunday, because you actually enjoy sex and use contraception because you dont want a baby every time, because you like to wear a bikini on the beach, because you like to read Salman Rushdie or partake of a wee dram. And do not forget the peer pressure, which is concentrated fearmongering, to conform. I wonder how many people would actually care about religion if somehow we managed to liberate them from peer pressure. Not that many I think. Religion is a mass hysteria without factual evidence to support its claims. Wherever there is hysteria there is fear, they walk hand in hand.

Embellishment is the first tool of every storyteller. Things were no different back at the dawn of language. Smart people began to realise, for good or ill, that particular embellishments would have particular effects. Over the millennia this has been refined to a fine art. And so we have the devices of mass control we call our holy books. As I have stated many times this was not strictly a bad thing, societies need laws of governance. But the greedy and powerful have so corrupted them that they are no longer useful. Well not if we do not wish to walk headlong into some mutually assured destruction. I think mankind has reached the point we need to cast away our fairytale books and go in for some factual education. Just as we get over the realisation that Dad is Santa Claus, so we will get over the fact God is no more than an instrument of fear propagated by the churches.

Tao
 
You know Tao, now that I think about it, the ability to construct a story and then live out from and within it is really a marvelous ability. True, it does have its downside, but look here for a moment. The addict, the alchoholic gives up their failing perceptions of a world where getting high is the only survival mechanism they know for one in which a higher power controls their destiny and day to day life. Now, say what you will but it does have the effect of getting their lives back on track and makes them a more useful member of the tribe.

Further, we have picked on religion to the exlcusion of other belief systems that can cause damage as well. You mention control of the masses and I agree as far as that goes but what about the other two methods? Politics and marketing? Just look how far we have come when giant corporations have millions of people in the palm of their hands. If consumers ever started waking up to the fact that they don't need half of what wal-mart is selling where would they be? Our whole economy rests on everyone just having to have the latest model, the best thingamabob.
Political propaganda though tied into the religious here in the States is just as bad. It pretends virtue because of association with religion but the world should have seen through that old schtick after Crystal Nacht , nicht wahr?
 
Juantoo,

That is why I have issues with Dawkins "memes." Meme is another way of saying belief system, and all peoples have a belief system, including Dawkins. I find it disingenuous to fault some people for a trait all people share, in principle if not in particulars.
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I haven't read Dawkins but I agree. I personally don't have an issue with people forming beliefs so much as I have a problem with fundamentalism, including that on the far left. At that point I think there's a real risk of it becoming a cancer on other parts of society. If someone's saying, "I know I'm right because I've got this source of absolute truth here and you're completely wrong for questioning it, should believe as I do" then I get concerned. If someone's only going so far as saying, "I disagree with you because I believe I'm right but you're welcome to live your life according to your own beliefs" then I'm not so worried.
 
dauer said:
Juantoo,



I haven't read Dawkins but I agree. I personally don't have an issue with people forming beliefs so much as I have a problem with fundamentalism, including that on the far left. At that point I think there's a real risk of it becoming a cancer on other parts of society. If someone's saying, "I know I'm right because I've got this source of absolute truth here and you're completely wrong for questioning it, should believe as I do" then I get concerned. If someone's only going so far as saying, "I disagree with you because I believe I'm right but you're welcome to live your life according to your own beliefs" then I'm not so worried.
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Oh boy! Shall we revisit the classic thread, The Rush to be Right once again? :D
 
Tao_Equus said:
Across the board, when we look at those that express they have belief, we do not see their individually arrived at beliefs but an indoctrination into the established system of the region they find themselves in.
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This is generally true I suppose but it is not always the case I believe.

s.
 
Taosaur said:
The "cure" I'd offer is more an open, interfaith approach, like that advocated by H.H. The Dalai Lama. Encourage people of all faiths to talk to each other with the assumption that their goals are similar. My experience of power-mongers in religious institutions is mainly American Evangelists, but they rely almost exclusively on fear-of-other directed at other faiths and secular society. The cure for fear-of-other is simple: mingle.

Going back to Paladin's statements, the symbol-sets of religion only stand between the believer and reality when they aren't being used correctly. A functioning symbol-set and body of practice provides the believer with powerful tools for engaging and operating within the human condition. Those same symbols can be perverted by charismatics to act as blinders, but what is needed is a thorough housecleaning, not to burn down the house.
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Like it. :)

s.
 
China Cat Sunflower said:
Well, that sounds real nice. What I'm saying is that not all concepts are of equal value. So long as whackos are marginalized from the institutions of power I don't have a problem with anyone subscribing to anything they please. But that doesn't mean that everyone's sacred cow pies are of equal, or any worth.

Chris
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Who decides the worth / value ?

s.
 
Paladin said:
Again, there is nothing wrong with having a belief system, but at least keep in awareness that is what you are doing. One may do or believe anything they wish but stay aware.

Actuality is engaged by the individual when they begin to stop and look. And for all we know the elements found in many religions will be found also in an honest inquiry.
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Perhaps the "problem" is clinging to a belief system, our own stories?

s.
 
Paladin said:
You know Tao, now that I think about it, the ability to construct a story and then live out from and within it is really a marvelous ability. True, it does have its downside, but look here for a moment. The addict, the alchoholic gives up their failing perceptions of a world where getting high is the only survival mechanism they know for one in which a higher power controls their destiny and day to day life. Now, say what you will but it does have the effect of getting their lives back on track and makes them a more useful member of the tribe.
Click to expand...

Whilst religion is the lesser of the two evils it is still a crutch. I have limited experience with preachers but the 2 priests from the church closest to me as a child were both alcoholics and I believe this is not uncommon. A predilection toward addiction, or at least "self medication" is a common factor in most depressive illnesses. It is also the case that such people are more likely to have strong religious beliefs. Is this just a coincidence?

Further, we have picked on religion to the exlcusion of other belief systems that can cause damage as well. You mention control of the masses and I agree as far as that goes but what about the other two methods? Politics and marketing? Just look how far we have come when giant corporations have millions of people in the palm of their hands. If consumers ever started waking up to the fact that they don't need half of what wal-mart is selling where would they be? Our whole economy rests on everyone just having to have the latest model, the best thingamabob.
Political propaganda though tied into the religious here in the States is just as bad. It pretends virtue because of association with religion but the world should have seen through that old schtick after Crystal Nacht , nicht wahr?
Click to expand...

I recently had it thrown at me that because Stalin and Hitler were religion free that atheism also commits crimes in its name. This is simply not true. Political extremes are exactly the same as religion. With Hitler his was Nazi-ism and for Stalin it was Stalinism, (not communism). But a true atheist cannot be drawn to political extremes any more than religious ones. Dogma is dogma wherever it resides. Atheism is probably most akin to communism in its ideal because an atheist will see that what is good for all is also good for him.
Consumerism is a trickier one. All of us are guilty of aspiration to better things. What society needs is education to realise the full cost of a product and all of its subsidies removed. The insane core of capitalism, constant growth, also has to be addressed... and soon. The holy book of consumerism is advertising and the similarity between a 'good' sermon and a 'good' advert is striking. They will both make you feel like you need the product to be complete again... after they have devalued you.
I was heavily into the whole Anarchy, Peace and Freedom thing when I was younger. And yes it was like a religion to me. As I grew older I dropped the dogmatic bit, the big A. I do not believe we will find peace nor freedom for quite some time but I hope that we do. Hope has no delusions but is the best we can do. its far preferable to belief.

Tao
 
Tao_Equus said:
Whilst religion is the lesser of the two evils it is still a crutch. I have limited experience with preachers but the 2 priests from the church closest to me as a child were both alcoholics and I believe this is not uncommon. A predilection toward addiction, or at least "self medication" is a common factor in most depressive illnesses. It is also the case that such people are more likely to have strong religious beliefs. Is this just a coincidence?



I recently had it thrown at me that because Stalin and Hitler were religion free that atheism also commits crimes in its name. This is simply not true. Political extremes are exactly the same as religion. With Hitler his was Nazi-ism and for Stalin it was Stalinism, (not communism). But a true atheist cannot be drawn to political extremes any more than religious ones. Dogma is dogma wherever it resides. Atheism is probably most akin to communism in its ideal because an atheist will see that what is good for all is also good for him.
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Interesting how a self described non-belief has the same defenses that a belief has...
Consumerism is a trickier one. All of us are guilty of aspiration to better things. What society needs is education to realise the full cost of a product and all of its subsidies removed. The insane core of capitalism, constant growth, also has to be addressed... and soon. The holy book of consumerism is advertising and the similarity between a 'good' sermon and a 'good' advert is striking. They will both make you feel like you need the product to be complete again... after they have devalued you.
I was heavily into the whole Anarchy, Peace and Freedom thing when I was younger. And yes it was like a religion to me. As I grew older I dropped the dogmatic bit, the big A. I do not believe we will find peace nor freedom for quite some time but I hope that we do. Hope has no delusions but is the best we can do. its far preferable to belief.

Tao
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Have you ever considered that the free-market system is the economic parallel of spiritual atheism? (No authority in control, things just happen?) ;)
 
seattlegal said:
Interesting how a self described non-belief has the same defenses that a belief has...
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of course, non-belief is still a belief. To put it forward you must have a defendable structure.

Have you ever considered that the free-market system is the economic parallel of spiritual atheism? (No authority in control, things just happen?) ;)
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I have, and dismissed it. The global economy is decided by a very few individuals and there is no such thing as "free market". Less than 3000 people are in control of 97% of the worlds wealth. Do you think such people make no attempt to control and allow things to "just happen"?

Tao
 
Tao_Equus said:
of course, non-belief is still a belief. To put it forward you must have a defendable structure.

I have, and dismissed it. The global economy is decided by a very few individuals and there is no such thing as "free market". Less than 3000 people are in control of 97% of the worlds wealth. Do you think such people make no attempt to control and allow things to "just happen"?

Tao
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A few being in control of the majority of the wealth is not limited to capitalism. I guess that 'economic atheists' are exceedingly rare.
 
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