There is no such thing as 'Free Will'

Snoopy said:
I agree, I wasn't suggesting it be a closed discussion involving only members of the faith titled in a thread. I think it's the issue of not respecting the faith of the thread where it is couched that is of concern, a misdemeanour I know I've been guilty of. But it may also be a matter of perception; a neutral honest question may be perceived as an attack by some. What would definitely irritate me as a Christian would be a non-Christian telling me what Christianity is and isn't.

s.
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wil said:
Replace Christian with Buddhist, Taoist, Jew, Muslim, whatever and that aptly describes the our interfaith forums within our forums.
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Ouch! :eek: {OK, well you do know that getting information about Buddhism from a Buddhist can be like pulling teeth? :eek:}

Outside thought and perspectives are welcome, but the basis is the sacred documents of that religion...
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Hey, it has gotten better. Not long ago, quoting Bible verses on the Christianity forum was met with scorn from non-Christians posting there, and when I posted a Buddhist Sutta on the Buddhist forum, the same thing happened! However, I must say that things have improved since then. :)

ie don't kick sand...outside of your sandbox...

inside our own sandboxes we kick away discussing our infernal, I mean internal differences.
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:)
 
Snoopy said:
I think the general tone is of you trying to educate Patti (albeit politely) away from her erroneous (Christian) views. In the Christian forum I think this a little unreasonable to do.
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I think it's a little unreasonable of you to accuse me of trying to "educate away" people from their "erroneous (Christian) views". You probably find it hard to believe, but I have no desire to change anybody's faith. The only time the word "erroneous" has appeared in this thread is when you chose to dream it up.

I fear that I sound like a broken record, but considering how little of the message you've managed to hear, I'll repeat it again...
There are a different paths that lead to the same universal truth. In every culture, in every corner of the world there are people connecting with this truth. You can call it God, Allah, Enlightenment or the Force if you want. What matters is not the specific pathway that you're traveling on, but how you are walking it.​

To spread this message I do use humor, occasionally even sarcasm, and that ain't going to change anytime soon (I do have to keep myself entertained, after all). But I try to remain polite, and I've never wished eternal damnation on anybody (though I've considered it for Q ;)).

Just setting the record straight. Now, back to our regularly scheduled program.
 
citizenzen said:
The only time the word "erroneous" has appeared in this thread is when you chose to dream it up.
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What, I can only use permitted words then? :confused:

considering how little of the message you've managed to hear, I'll repeat it again...
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Yes I read it the first time thanks; and I and others may or may not agree with it.

Hope Patti is happy now you've set the record straight. :)

s.

 
citizenzen said:
I think it's a little unreasonable of you to accuse me of trying to "educate away" people from their "erroneous (Christian) views". You probably find it hard to believe, but I have no desire to change anybody's faith. The only time the word "erroneous" has appeared in this thread is when you chose to dream it up.

I fear that I sound like a broken record, but considering how little of the message you've managed to hear, I'll repeat it again...
There are a different paths that lead to the same universal truth. In every culture, in every corner of the world there are people connecting with this truth. You can call it God, Allah, Enlightenment or the Force if you want. What matters is not the specific pathway that you're traveling on, but how you are walking it.​
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Lemme translate this into Christian for you:
John 10
The Ideal Shepherd
1 " I assure you: Anyone who doesn't enter the sheep pen by the door but climbs in some other way, is a thief and a robber. (A) 2 The one who enters by the door is the shepherd (B) of the sheep. (C) 3 The doorkeeper opens it for him, and the sheep hear his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 When he has brought all his own outside, he goes ahead of them. The sheep follow him because they recognize his voice. 5 They will never follow a stranger; instead they will run away from him, because they don't recognize the voice of strangers."

6 Jesus gave them this illustration, but they did not understand (D) what He was telling them.


The Good Shepherd
7 So Jesus said again, " I assure you: I am (E) the door of the sheep. (F) 8 All who came before Me [a] are thieves and robbers, but the sheep didn't listen to them. 9 I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved and will come in and go out and find pasture. 10 A thief comes only to steal (G) and to kill and to destroy. (H) I have come that they may have life and have it in abundance.

11 "I am the good shepherd. (I) The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. (J) 12 The hired man, since he is not the shepherd and doesn't own the sheep, leaves them and runs away when he sees a wolf (K) coming. The wolf then snatches and scatters them. 13 [This happens] because he is a hired man and doesn't care about the sheep.

14 "I am the good shepherd. I know My own sheep, and they know Me, 15 as the Father knows Me, and I know the Father. (L) I lay down My life (M) for the sheep. 16 But I have other sheep (N) that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will listen to My voice. Then there will be one flock, one shepherd. (O) 17 This is why the Father loves Me, (P) because I am laying down My life (Q) so I may take it up again. 18 No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down on My own. I have the right to lay it down, and I have the right to take it up again. I have received this command from My Father." (R)

19 Again a division (S) took place among the Jews because of these words. 20 Many of them were saying, "He has a demon (T) and He's crazy! Why do you listen to Him?" 21 Others were saying, "These aren't the words of someone demon-possessed. Can a demon open the eyes of the blind?" (U)

John 13

34 "I give you a new commandment: love one another. Just as I have loved you, you must also love one another. 35 By this all people will know that you are My disciples, if you have love (AP) for one another."​
How did Jesus say to access the door? To love one another just as he loved us. (Not by another way, but by loving one another.) Jesus said anyone accessing by any other way is a thief and a robber. (They are robbers and thieves because they draw the sheep away from loving one another.) Jesus also said that he had other sheep which were not of this fold who would also listen to his commandment to love one another. These other sheep hear the call to love one another, and enter through that same door.

1 John 4:8
The one who does not love does not know God, because God is love.​
 
Tao_Equus said:
My bullsh1t detector is still singing like Armageddon is coming.
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Gasp! Not Christian Armageddon, surely! LOL :p

seattlegal said:
How did Jesus say to access the door? To love one another just as he loved us. (Not by another way, but by loving one another.) Jesus said anyone accessing by any other way is a thief and a robber. (They are robbers and thieves because they draw the sheep away from loving one another.) Jesus also said that he had other sheep which were not of this fold who would also listen to his commandment to love one another. These other sheep hear the call to love one another, and enter through that same door.
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Yay! I agree completely! So any religion that does not draw people away from loving each other is not wrong. Any members of a religion such as that are not necessarily damned to hell. Jesus says so. And he knows all.

Sry... still haven't gotten any sleep.

See ya!
 
"Is love that is not freely given truly love? What could be more precious (and real!) to an omnipotent being than receiving such a gift that is not dependent upon this being's omnipotence"

I'm not sure, were you quoting yourself from an earlier post? It seems strangely familiar. Was it a response to me? Oh well, on with the post...

Maybe that's part of the reason that it feels like we have free will on this plane of being, so that love is real when we feel it.

I'll just post my beliefs about free will, summarized and all shiny...

If God is omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent, and created man, he would have known before creating him the outcome of every decision that every human would face until the end of time. God made his entire creation knowing how it would unfold. When he had created it, he said that it was good. If he didn't want things to be the way that they are, he could have made them different, but he didn't.

We as people make decisions of our own free will every day, but we can only make decisions based on who we are, and he created us that way. If we do evil or good it is because of who we are, and God created us that way.

We have free will from our perspective, we make our own decisions, and steer the course of our own lives. But God, who created us, already knew the outcome of that course from his omniscient perspective before the beginning of his creation.

We both do and do not have free will.

I say that neither predestination or free will as concepts are entirely right.

I propose the free will paradox as stated above.

Well there ya go.
 
immortalitylost said:
We have free will from our perspective, we make our own decisions, and steer the course of our own lives. But God, who created us, already knew the outcome of that course from his omniscient perspective before the beginning of his creation.
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I'm going to agree with you most of the way.

But, since we don't view life from an ever-lasting, all-powerful, omniscient perspective it is a moot point.

We have free will.

Since we can't prove that God is ever-lasting, all-powerful and omniscient and that it requires a leap of faith to believe this.

We have free will.

Since there is no proof of God's existence and that it requires a leap of faith to believe in Him.

We have free will.

Since in every aspect of our lives we are judged by the actions that we take.

We have free will.

Now I'm sure there are those who disagree with this and will likely have a comment or two to say about it. However, to disagree with the reality in which we live—a reality where we make thousands of choices every day, a reality where we judge and are judged by the choices that we make and held accountable personally, financially and legally for those choices—is in my humble opinion, foolishness.

Those who wish to quibble, wax philosophically about the presumed perspective of omniscient deities or who dream of living outside of our everyday reality, you are more than welcome to do so.
 
I said:
Remember, this was your original post - the last paragraph is especially worth highlighting:
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When I said context, I meant the entire conversation. One post does not a conversation make.

Are you saying that I can't quote the Bible?
 
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pattimax said:
Your response indicates an assumption that everything that happens inside your body is a product solely of your body. You assert that your brain is the source, and possibly plays the only role. In so doing, you have already rejected the possibility that there is a God. You are, apparently, quite certain that there is no superior being to yourself, and that only your opinion, formed within yourself, counts. While asserting that there is no evidence to support the concept of such a superior being, you are confident that you are just such a being.

John 3:19-20 (New King James Version)

19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
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Brian,

Here it is, the beginning of the "context".
 
citizenzen said:
I'm going to agree with you most of the way.

But, since we don't view life from an ever-lasting, all-powerful, omniscient perspective it is a moot point.

We have free will.

Since we can't prove that God is ever-lasting, all-powerful and omniscient and that it requires a leap of faith to believe this.

We have free will.

Since there is no proof of God's existence and that it requires a leap of faith to believe in Him.

We have free will.

Since in every aspect of our lives we are judged by the actions that we take.

We have free will.

Now I'm sure there are those who disagree with this and will likely have a comment or two to say about it. However, to disagree with the reality in which we live—a reality where we make thousands of choices every day, a reality where we judge and are judged by the choices that we make and held accountable personally, financially and legally for those choices—is in my humble opinion, foolishness.

Those who wish to quibble, wax philosophically about the presumed perspective of omniscient deities or who dream of living outside of our everyday reality, you are more than welcome to do so.
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That's exactly what I'm saying. From our perspective, the only perspective that we have, we have free will.

So, yup. Free will. But from my perspective, not only free will. That's all.
 
I've removed the last couple of posts - let's keep away from personal attacks, thanks.
 
citizenzen said:
Let's just say that when you "erroneously" attribute them to me you shouldn't be surprised if I call you on it.
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Sorry if we're misunderstanding each other here. I wasn't trying to erroneously attribute anything to you. I was saying that it seems to me that you gently try to educate Patti in her views because her views are erroneous.

Anyway, have a banana. :)

s.
 
I'm so glad! :D But lets try not to have a hernia shall we? That can't be good for you. :eek:

I was so worried that I'd come back to a hailstorm of posts that I'd have to wade through (I just got Sims 3 and haven't been able to un-glue myself long enough for a visit) but it isn't too crazy here. Phew. :)

But yeah, I guess that means I have nothing to argue about if I believe that there is both free will and predestination, huh. Really takes the stress out of life. ;)

Yes, lovely weather we're having, right right, quite agree. :p

See ya!
 
immortalitylost said:
I was so worried that I'd come back to a hailstorm of posts that I'd have to wade through
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It's not compulsory to wade through everything that's been posted since you last came here :p:p:p What if your PC broked for a month or you went on holiday for two weeks??!! Just cherry pick the most interesting/silly/colourful/stimulating/random posts (whatever)...that would give you extra time for sticking your face in a cat's tummy and going "bbbrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr". And why do they smell of vanilla? Ah bless...

s.
 
True, true! But my kitty smells like fabric softener...

I think that he has my dog fluff him up in the dryer every few days. How else can his fur be so very puffy, ALL the time?!

See ya!

PS: "bbbrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr" lolololol! Such a cute visual!!!
 
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