There is no such thing as 'Free Will'

He didn't say that. You say that.

Show me where he says that.

Now you are juggling semantics.
James did in fact say it using different words.
Think about it.

"We cannot truly want, in a decisive sense, what we want, simply in an abstract sense, so long as there are other things that we want MORE, in a decisive sense, than we want the ideals for which we abstractly long."

BTW, when Jim uses the word voluntary, he simply means "not against our will."
He does not mean we could have chosen differently.
 
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There is free-will for all souls ---but it all transpires in a dynamic world of common recipes.


The Maha-Mantra for this age of Kali:

Hare Krishna Hare Krishna
Krishna Krishna Hare Hare
Hare Rama Hare Rama
Rama Rama Hare Hare

Famously served up with incense, drums and cymbals and followed up with a vegetaian feast.
 
There is free-will for all souls

By actually choosing the choice that we made, we demonstrated that it was the choice that we wanted the MOST (at least sightly more than choosing something else) at that particular point in time.

And what we wanted MOST at that particular point in time was the reason that CAUSED us to choose the way we did.

It is not even possible that we could have made any other choice than the one that we did make at that particular point in time.
 
Now you are juggling semantics.
James did in fact say it using different words.
Think about it.

I did think about it. And you are quite wrong.

"We cannot truly want, in a decisive sense, what we want, simply in an abstract sense, so long as there are other things that we want more, in a decisive sense, than we want the ideals for which we abstractly long."

What the man is saying is that no matter how idealistic we may be, other more pressing (and less idealistic) desires often overpower our best nature.

For instance, I'd like to be more compassionate, yet when faced with your incessant and simplistic posts I find myself surrendering to the desire to bash your head with a heavy cast iron skillet... over and over.

Nowhere in his words is there any indication that the choices we make are the only choice we could have made at that particular time. That is an invention on your part... surrendering to the desire to see what you want to see instead of ideally reading the actual words that were written.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to find that frying pan.
 
Neither "ranking" nor "no ranking" is the issue.
If you use a word like "MOST", then "ranking" is what you are talking about. Up until the choice is made, all the possibilities are "wanted" and no one of them is particularly "wanted MOST".
The issue is that by actually choosing the choice that we made, we demonstrated that it was the choice that we wanted MOST (at least sightly more than choosing something else) at that particular point in time.
That is to say, it is only the choice itself which created any "MOST" or "slightly more" among the possibilities. Before that particular point in time, there were no such distinctions.
And it was what we wanted MOST at that particular point in time that CAUSED us to choose the way we did.
That is an abuse of the word "cause". Only something which existed beforehand can be spoken of as a "cause", and no such thing as wanting one of the possibilities "MOST" existed before the point in the time when the choice was made.
It is not even possible that we could have made any other choice than the one that we did make at that particular point in time.
OF COURSE it was possible, and if a different possibility were chosen, then THAT possibility would be what you label "what you wanted MOST" instead.
 
Nowhere in his words is there any indication that the choices we make are the only choice we could have made at that particular time. That is an invention on your part... surrendering to the desire to see what you want to see instead of ideally reading the actual words that were written.

More "actual words that were written," quoted from Jim's writing.

"When we choose, we choose what is presently choicest to us. It is not possible for us to do otherwise, for our choices reflect the true condition of our heart, and manifest our character.

A man’s choices are determined by necessity, external and internal, so .... he cannot be responsible [i.e., able to act otherwise], any more than an inanimate object is responsible for the motion it undergoes."

BTW, I think this post effectively responds to Bob's most recent post too.
 
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A man’s choices are determined by necessity, external and internal, so .... he cannot be responsible [i.e., able to act otherwise], any more than an inanimate object is responsible for the motion it undergoes."

Held responsible by whom? Surely you cannot be suggesting that society cannot hold people responsible for their actions. Nor do I suppose you yourself don't hold people responsible for their actions. If I succumbed to my desire to bash you with a frying pan, would you just shrug it off as an act I could not otherwise have chosen?
 
Held responsible by whom? Surely you cannot be suggesting that society cannot hold people responsible for their actions. Nor do I suppose you yourself don't hold people responsible for their actions. If I succumbed to my desire to bash you with a frying pan, would you just shrug it off as an act I could not otherwise have chosen?

If bashing me with a pan becomes the STRONGEST influence on your mind you will not be able to resist doing it.

But for as long as being concerned about the possible consequenses of bashing me with a pan remains the STRONGEST influence on your mind, you will avoid taking that course of action.

The REASONS for your making your choice make up the STRONGEST influence, i.e. what you want to do the MOST, and those REASONS will always dictate what you actually choose to do.

Th actual making of any choice demonstrates that you wanted to do that the MOST at that particular point in time.
 
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If bashing me with a pan becomes the STRONGEST influence on your mind you will not be able to resist doing it.

*sigh*

That isn't what I asked Rodger. Please read my previous post again. Please note the words in the quoted text that I highlighted in bold red. Please note that those words are directly related to the question I asked, one that requires an answer beyond your reflexive "strong influences" response... which I must say, hearing it again, for the (seemingly) 200th time, was very, very illuminating. :rolleyes:
 
Held responsible by whom?

Anyone

Surely you cannot be suggesting that society cannot hold people responsible for their actions. Nor do I suppose you yourself don't hold people responsible for their actions. If I succumbed to my desire to bash you with a frying pan, would you just shrug it off as an act I could not otherwise have chosen?

Even though they are not responsible at that point in time, they need to experience negative consequences so the next time they have a similar choice to make the STRONGEST influence should be to choose differently.
 
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There is free-will for all souls ---but it all transpires in a dynamic world of common recipes.

No will can be perceived as "free" that always chooses what it wants the MOST.


The Recipes are the constraints (limits/laws/physics/rules/standards/social morays) that result in a finished product ---Note that the recipes are always passed down person-to-person.

There is free-will . . . but it is limited to the realm of available choices.

Columbus took it upon himself to lead the expedition, but there was no way he would discover the Moon on the edge of the horizon. He would find what was lying over there all awaiting the inevitable.

There are countless combinations that the Lottery numbers [or horse races] could tally-up . . . so, the confinds of the dynamic entity in question is specifically limited to only a few statistical choices. And there is no other outcomes except those related to the factors involved.

The smart will rule and the less-smart will workl for the smart ones ---not much Free-will ---but plenty of free-opportunity for innovative thinkers to think outside the box.
 
Modern Neuroscience has discovered hundreds of billions of neurons, trillions of axons (electical cables), many trillions of synapses (nerve axon to nerve dentrite electrochemical transmission), and as many post-synaptic receptors. Receptors receive the stimulus of a neurochemical released by the synaptic ending, and initiate the generation of an action potential (nerve signal.) Many (about 30) different neurochemical transmitters have been identified. PET and SPECT scanning can determine synaptic density, synaptic release (normal, decreased, or increased quanta), receptor density, the type of receptor, receptor up regulation, and receptor down regulation.

This has shown that there are no so-called centres of function. Functions are governed by complex networks, supercircuits, and circuits. These circuits are diffuse, widespread, and overlapping with thousansds of other circuits. In fact they share many pathways between different supercircuits that compose programmes. This multiple redundancy is necessary to have a brain “small” enough for us to carry it. What we once called centres were merely electrical relay stations where neurons received signals. Signals activate the neuron (action potential) that generates impulses. These are passed on by Saltatory Conduction, segmental axonal fluxes of Na+ and K+ ions as the signal to hundreds of thousands of other neurons in other so-called "centres." This formed complex feedback loops to be sent through transcortical and subcortical to other circuit systems. This formed complex supercircuits for information processing, storage, and retrieval.

Actually the complex networks, circuits, and supercircuits are all that we are, all that we do, and all that we feel and think. Our brain structure is genetically determined by at least 34 regulatory genes from the large “lobes” down to the microcircuits. Regulatory genes regulate the neuronal cell mass migration after month 5 of gestation, the major structure of the circuits, supercircuits, and networks. These regulatory genes are already being associated with observed neurobehavioural functions. And neurobehavioural disorders are being identified now by the gene abnormality as well as PET, fMRI imaging of metabolic uptake in specific behavioural circuits, TMI (Tran cortical magnetic stimulation), and Single Fibre Mapping. Specific data and input, including experience and memory that are our soft-ware programmes. These programmes are not only used by our hard ware circuits, but they in fact alter those circuits. Any perception or action causes microscopic changes in brain (synaptic density, neurochemical synaptic release quanta, synaptic sprouts, numbers of receptors, up regulation, or down regulation, of receptors. And if given enough time and rehearsal of the data, an actual increase in axons (i.e. the size of circuits) is altered.

The Brain's ARAS (Ascending Reticular Activating System) determines our consciousness and our attention. It activates highter diencephalic and cortical areas for more complex cognition or motor activity. In Pikaea, our ancient ancestor 550 million years ago, that same structure was a purely primitive motor escape mechanism. We added layers upon layers to the brain over the millions of years of evolution in an onion like fashion. The older brain areas lost their function. Then these older areas (e.g.Mesencephalon) acquired more basic activation, vegetative, and coordinative jobs for the higher cognitive, affective, perceptive, and motor cortical brain. Higher Cortical layers acquired more complex cognition, associations, emotions, reasoning, language, mathematics, and abstract concepts.

These networks especially the frontal are the most complex and critical in cognition. And frontal circuitry is most advanced in the Ape-Human Family. We receive input. It is processed in the frontal networks. Data from association and memory areas is organised in priority. That priority may be chronological, class type, colour, structure, and memory. Then it goes through the frontal rational screening supercircuit which I call the rubbish filter. This system rejects irrational ideas but accepts and stores rational or logical concepts. Thus the healthy brain accepts “a straight line is the shortest distance between two points.” The healthy brain rejects ‘cubical spheres” and “the square root of -1.”

If a response is required, the frontal circuits analyse the data. They employ new information, working memory, long term memory, past experience with similar data, and associations with other classes of data. A response is formulated and coded for expression. The interacting circuits come up with a protocol of action which we call a choice or decision.

But is the response resulting from these complex interacting supercircuits really a decision or choice?

Is this free will, or is it an automatic computer-like response?

Does the rapidiy of brain circuit action give us the illusion that we are maknig a choice?

Do our brain circuits arrive at the action with such rapid processing that we get an illusion of choice?

When our brains are analysing particularly complex issues with many contributing factors, it will do the preliminary rational thinking, critical analysis, comparison of associated stored data, and screening through the sceptical module. The latter is a network of several supercircuits that analyse evidence and conclusions looking for faults (like you own Norton’s Antivirus.) In very complicated issues (especially in science) the brain may re-run the conclusion through the whole system again and again, until it identifies the flaws, or eliminates them. This multiphased process is what humans call “thinking it over,” “rehashing it in my mind,” or “worrying over it.” Sometimes it may be complex enough that processing continues while we do something else. It may actually be screened during sleep (“I need to sleep on it.”) This “subconscious processing continues even when concentration is diverted. An example is inability to remember what superstar played third base for the 1962 Baltimore Orioles. But you can’t remember it. Later while watching David Suzuki on CBC Telly, the name “Brookes Robinson” pops into your head. Your brain had been working on it all of the time unnoticed by your conscious programmes.

Amergin
 
We have a will alright but it is only "free" to choose whatever we want the MOST at any given point in time.

The fact that we have chosen anything at all demonstrates that, at that point in time, we preferred making that choice the MOST, even though there may have been other choices that were almost just as persuasive.
 
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Even though they are not responsible at that point in time, they need to experience negative consequences so the next time they have a similar choice to make the STRONGEST influence should be to choose differently.

What good does it do to say "They aren't responsible" when you are still going to treat them "as if" they were?
 
What good does it do to say "They aren't responsible" when you are still going to treat them "as if" they were?

The "good" that it will do is to impress on them that their irresponsible behavior will have undesirable consequences so the STRONGEST influence in their life will be to not make the same sort of choice again.
 
The "good" that it will do is to impress on them that their irresponsible behavior will have undesirable consequences so the STRONGEST influence in their life will be to not make the same sort of choice again.

So why even entertain the notion that they (and you) are not responsible at all as you've claimed?

You still haven't given me a compelling reason to take on your philosophy other than it makes you feel better about your past choices. There are other (IMO) ways to achieve that end that don't involve lying to people to get them to behave the way you want them to.
 
So why even entertain the notion that they (and you) are not responsible at all as you've claimed?

Because I perceive it to be the truth.

You still haven't given me a compelling reason to take on your philosophy other than it makes you feel better about your past choices.

The fact that I perceive it to be the truth is a "compelling reason" enough for me. You yourself will believe whatever you perceive to be the truth based on the STRONGEST influences on your mind, just like everyone else will.

There are other (IMO) ways to achieve that end that don't involve lying to people to get them to behave the way you want them to.

It not a "lie" that people are not responsible for their choices.
It is the truth.

We always, without exception, choose whatever we want the MOST at any particular point in time.
It is not even possible that we could have chosen any other way than the way we did choose.
The fact that we chose it demonstrates that it was the CHOICEST choice, at that particular point in time.
That's the TRUTH.
 
When we choose, we choose what is presently choicest to us.
None of the possibilities were choicest, none of them were choicer than any others, until we chose. So it is incorrect to say "We chose option A because it was choicest", since it was not true that "A was choicest" before the choice happened. The choice could have been "option B" instead, after which we would say "B was choicest".
A man’s choices are determined by necessity, external and internal, so ....
A man's choices are not determined by anything but the choice itself.
he cannot be responsible [i.e., able to act otherwise], any more than an inanimate object is responsible for the motion it undergoes.
He is mistaken about inanimate objects as well.
BTW, I think this post effectively responds to Bob's most recent post too.
It only shows that you STILL don't even hear what I am saying to you.
 
It not a "lie" that people are not responsible for their choices.

That is not the lie that I was referring to.

Even though you believe that people are not responsible for their actions you lie to others because you act as if they are in the hope of manipulating their choices in the future. You lie to others.

I'll bet you also lie to yourself. Because even though you say you believe that people aren't responsible for their actions, I'll bet that you still feel inside as if they are. If a person cuts you off on the road and almost hits your car I highly doubt that brush off their act and calmly say, "They couldn't help themselves."

If your wife (if you have one) had an affair would you maintain your equanimity knowing that when she was in the throes of passion with another man that she wasn't responsible for her actions? Say yes and you're not just lying to yourself, but to everyone who reads your post as well.
 
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