I am not Jewish and I do not wish to read "My Jewsih learning".
OK, but clearly, historically Jesus was Jewish. The OT is a collection of Jewish texts. The disciples were Jewish.
Without understanding Jewish ideology about free will and sin, how can you interpret the scriptures accurately?
Jesus may have been speaking to the lost sheep, but He clearly stated in the Gospels that He came to speak to the Jews and He operated within the Jewish ideology. Mark 7:27-29, Matthew 5:16-18.
I think there are many problems of theology today due to ignoring what Biblical texts meant in their original context, which was a Jewish context.
We HAVE a will, but it is not OUR's nothing is OUR's! ALL belongs to God.
Yes, everything is God's. I don't disagree with that. I think you don't grasp how I can simultaneously say everything is God's and yet we are giving freedom of decision-making/choice. Let me put it that way. Perhaps the word "will" is mucking things up. We are given by God the freedom to make our own decisions.
I will write this in a way you will understand:
TO WILL IS NOT CHOICE!!!!!!!!!!
WE CAN NOT BELIEVE IN SOMETHING WITHOUT SOMETHING CAUSING US TO BELIEVE!!! WERE YOU BORN BELIEVING IN GOD?!!
Apparently, "yelling" at me over the internet is supposed to make me understand. Typing in larger all-capitals doesn't aid in understanding, just as a FYI.
It just makes you appear to be an angry or agitated person, which is odd to me, because I don't find this issue to be that agitating. But to each his/her own.
I did not say I believed in God without cause. I said I believed in God because God had put His Light in me. I simply believe we are all born with that Light, which is there forever. That doesn't mean we all recognize it at the same time. God gives us our own capacity to make decisions- to decide to see the Light and use it to light our path. As Jesus mentioned Mark 4:21-22, the Light is meant to come out into the open.
DO YOU BELIEVE IN GOD BECAUSE SOMEONE TOLD YOU TO. NO! SOMETHING CAUSED YOU TO BELIEVE! THIS IS GOD!
Well, of course. I don't think anyone denies that we believe in God because God gives us the gift of Himself. If you read what I wrote with a better understanding of me, you would have seen that. It is God within us, given by His grace, that allows us to decide to believe in Him.
Love God? All those that God has given love are prosecuted!
Perhaps you mean persecuted? Prosecuted has to do with law and the court system.
That is why you don't UNDERSTAND me! You think I'm wrong about free will, But how can you say this if you do not understand what I am saying?
Not understanding someone and persecuting them are two very different things. Just because I don't agree with everything you say does not mean I persecute you.
According to the dictionary:
1
: to harass or punish in a manner designed to injure, grieve, or afflict;
specifically : to cause to suffer because of belief2
: to annoy with persistent or urgent approaches (as attacks, pleas, or importunities)
In this definition, if you claim that I persecute you because I am annoying you with persistent approaches, I could simply claim the same. At least I am not yelling at you with all caps. I am simply and calming stating my beliefs and trying to better understand yours through questioning.
I am not trying to convice you out of your beliefs. I don't think either of our positions matter one iota for either of our salvation, which is given by grace and has nothing to do with debates on free will whatsoever. I am simply having a conversation- attempting to work out what your beliefs are and comparing them to my own. That's what interfaith dialogue is all about.
If you feel that is persecution, you are kind of choosing it by getting on an interfaith board.
Did people fully understand Jesus? Like I said in previous posts even his disciples did not believe he had risen from the dead, they had to touch his side in order to believe!
I don't think anyone fully understands God.
Peter thought he had free will when he said he would not deny Jesus! (you ignore the posts you can't argue with don't you!) Jesus had to give them the Holy spirit before they understood.
Perhaps Peter meant not to deny Jesus, but caved in to his fear. It's happened to me before- I decide to do something right, but then I cave into my fear or temptation. But I know I am caving in and could do otherwise.
I can't speak for what happened to Peter. I can only say that I know myself better than you know me. And I know that I have a moment that I make a decision about doing the right thing, and that I could do the right thing even when I don't. (I am not suddenly overtaken by automated action; my actions are still within the realm of my decision-making.)
I am not intentionally ignoring any posts. I just don't pick up on every single thing you say (just as you have not picked up on every single thing I have said and answered each of my questions).
I wish you would stop assuming things about me. Most assumptions can be framed as genuine questions. Such as "Did you ignore this part of my argument or just accidentally overlook it? I was wondering if you could explain how you see this text?" It would be much more polite, and show me much more of the love that God gives us to give to each other. Disagreement or misunderstanding is not a problem, but assumption and a patronizing or agitated attitude is a real turn-off in conversation.
The people who wrote "My Jewish learning" do they understand? Do I understand? Do you?
I explained the value of texts like "My Jewish Learning." It isn't about becoming Jewish. It's about understanding what words like "sin" meant to Jews 2000 years ago, because that is the context of the Gospels.
I have no idea if you understand. I don't judge other people. Just because I disagree on things doesn't mean I think you're wrong.
I understand what God wants me to understand for my spiritual growth right now. I wait for insight from the Spirit- which sometimes takes the form of direct insight and sometimes takes the form of directing me to materials (historical, scholarly, whatever) that gives insight. It isn't about gaining a complete understanding of God for me. It's about loving Him and loving others, and being patient in what He gives me, which is always exactly what I need at that time.
It would have been more credible if you all ignored me, it would have been better if you all said in reponse to having no free will, only God knows...
I do think only God knows. But this is an interfaith forum, with a purpose of conversation about topics. You post your ideas, we post ours, we discuss, we debate, and through that we all learn about other people's perspectives. That's the point. If we all ignored you or to every post said "Only God Knows" (and we would have to, since in the end that is the truth), there wouldn't be much of an interfaith dialogue, would there?
Besides, it probably doesn't matter. You believe what you want to believe.
Not according to your own beliefs on free will. We believe what God
causes us to believe.
I'm not here to preach! I don't run some Church and wish to look for converts...
Preaching isn't always tied to a Church and looking for conversions. Preaching can be to try to get people to agree with you and affirm your own beliefs.
What I do believe in is the scriptures, and that is the original scriptures (in Greek) those were truly inspired. Not the Bible which cannot tranlate the original language.
I think it is admirable and important to put the Bible in its original language context (though there are disagreements if that is Greek- the OT was in Hebrew and there are many who posit the NT was first in Aramaic).
I think it is similarly important to put the Bible in its religious and historical context. We assume a lot about things from our own time and culture, which was not necessarily how things were meant 2000 years ago.
Ultimately, though, I think if we are walking with the Spirit, truth will be revealed to us whether or not we do such study. God looks for an open heart, a person yearning for Him, seeking after Him. And He promises us that if we seek, we will find (Matthew 7:8-10).
You said Satan doesn't decieve...
"And the GREAT DRAGON was cast out, that OLD SERPENT, called THE DEVIL, and SATAN [Heb: Adversary], which DECEIVES THE WHOLE WORLD and he was cast out into THE EARTH, and his angels were cast out with him" (Rev. 12:9).
Is this an interpretation? Does this mean something else when it says DECIEVES THE WHOLE WORLD?
The word also means seducer, which means something a little different than deceiver in modern English. To me, deception refers to an act in which we mean to be discerning and want to know truth, but through no fault of our own, we misunderstand and are deceived by another. Seduction plays on a tiny bit of ourselves that wants to be seduced. If we are firmly focused on God, we cannot be seduced because we are impervious to the type of flattery and worldly promises seducers use. And, incidentally, if we are firmly focused on God, He promises that He will be with us. So God protects us from these things if we are focused on Him.
As an aside, I have no problem saying I struggle with Revelation. So far, God has more or less told me to put it aside until I'm meant to pick it up again. I'm called to focus more or less on Jesus' message- love.
You obviously believe in the ideals of men...
OK. You can judge me all you want, but the truth is, you don't know me. So nothing is obvious at all to you about me, just as I don't know you.
This statement is supremely patronizing and prideful. It implies that you know what the ideals of men are versus the truth, and that you are in a position to judge others. Matthew 7:2-4
"For to be CARNALLY MINDED IS DEATH (Rom. 8:6)
Actually,
"6The mind of sinful man[
a] is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace;"
I think that explains what "carnal mind" means- a sinful mind.
You still mentions choices!, who metioned choices it sure was not me! You still bring up choices because your "pride" can't get round it.
OK. Here we go with the judging again. You assume my pride is why I mention choice. But you don't know me, or my spiritual journey. You can judge all you want, but I know me and God knows me. You don't.
All choices are caused. There is no such thing as a choice that DID NOT have a cause! And when a choice is CAUSED to happen, it could NOT have been prevented.
Well, then there is no need for you to become agitated and upset I disagree. It is not my choice to agree with you. God is causing me to disagree. So you needn't become vexed.
Think about it for a couple of thousand hours (I was being sarcastic) as I have and it will all become clear to you.
That's sad. I thought you'd really spent a long time, which I found impressive. Length of time spent on something doesn't mean it is right, but the commitment was, to my mind, admirable. Thank you for making the truth of the matter clear.
There are hundreds of Scriptures that show that God is Sovereign and that man is caused to make his choices by circumstances that ONLY GOD CONTROLS.
Yes, and hundreds that tell us that we are making choices. Many people have posted them here. But then, all this is scripted anyway, so it is pointless to point these out to you, just as it is pointless for you to point them out to us.
It is not true that if you have no free will, then it is God Who does or commits your sins in you. No, YOU SIN BY VOLUNTARILY [NOT "freely" OR WITHOUT A CAUSE] DOING WRONG.
Here's the definition of voluntary/voluntarily:
1
: proceeding from the will or from one's own choice or consent 2
: unconstrained by interference
: self-determining 3
: done by design or intention
: intentional <
voluntary manslaughter> 4
: of, relating to, subject to, or regulated by the will <
voluntary behavior> 5
: having power of free choice 6
: provided or supported by voluntary action <a
voluntary organization> 7
: acting or done of one's own free will without valuable consideration or legal obligation
That's from the dictionary. Maybe this is what is confusing me. You say we voluntarily sin, but are not choosing to sin. But voluntarily means, by definition, that it is proceeding from our own choice and will.
Perhaps you need to restate what you mean so I can better understand it. I am just going by what words actually mean, so I am guessing that your apparent lack of concern for these meanings is causing much confusion.
God does not sin by creating creatures THAT DO SIN.
Well, of course not.
I am not a member of any "Synagogue" or "Church" no!
I am a member of: "The Body of Christ—The Church of the Living God."
Me too.
(I WILL NOT POST AGAIN UNTIL YOU CAN JUSTIFY THIS):
OK. Actually, according to your own beliefs, you have no capacity to choose to post or not. God will make that choice for you. So if you post, you were meant to post. And if not, you were meant not to post.
Only God is omniscient, and you yourself believe you have no choice. So, by extension, you cannot know whether or not you will post at all. Only God will determine that event.
For my part, I am not going to justify it simply because of the way you are speaking to me- demanding me to do this or that, or you will not respond, "yelling" in caps, making assumptions and judgments about me, etc. Though I would hope you would restate what you mean by our volunteering to sin, given the definition of volunteering. That would help me understand you.
I do not need the truth to set me free. Christ already freed me through grace. The truth is lovely, but it is salvation that frees us.
Peace and Blessings,
Kim
Can't hurt...
